HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-30-2013, 11:40 AM
  #476
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
I agree with this a 100%. I've never seen Sid and Geno play so flat. This team
has way too much talent too look this bad. I was disgusted by lastnights game. Islanders aren't a great team to make the Pens look that bad lastnight.
I have . . . four years ago

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:47 AM
  #477
Fire Shero*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,440
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
No offense buddy, but I'm getting tired of reading stuff like this from people because it is a totally skewed way of looking at Shero's decisions. I am no apologist and I recognize Shero has made some mistakes over the years (what GM doesn't??), but the over-simiplifcation of the mistakes and the conclusions people draw are usually way off.

Let's start with the first one. This has been beaten to death, but when a team is finishing in such a way that they're always drafting in the he last 5 or 6 spots of the first round, those picks rarely produce "sure fire" forward prospects. Everyone from about pick 12 or 15 outward, is almost always a pick involving risk / some downside / some uncertainty.

Yes we've drafted a lot of D and it's pretty clear Shero and his scouts go BPA, which in those slots are often D with big upside, like Despres. It's also obvious (as they've said as much) that part of their strategy of stocking up highly touted D, is to trade them for F talent (see also: James Neal). He may well do that again in the next 30 days here! Would anyone be surprised? No. And if he does it successfully everyone will be happy... right up until the next D he drafts at which point they'll complain again because he didn't pick their "pet forward".

But make no mistake: no forward that we would've drafted in the slots we had available, would've made this team last year or this year and therefore would not have helped this team even though they're good players with upside (see also: Bennett, who isn't far from making the team and IS a very good F talent... but just isn't ready yet after only a season or so of college hockey and a few months in WBS).

The ONLY criticism one can validly make:

1) "Shero should've traded up in the draft two years ago to try to get someone like Tarasenko." That's valid in theory but then who do you trade to get that #14 pick (I think it was 14), and what hole does that leave behind in the immediate aftermath? And oh BTW, he would not have made the team until this year, either. So you traded a current roster asset for someone not on the roster for another 1-2 years. Stuff is not as simple as "Oh, if we'd drafted a Top 12 Forward at some point inthe last two or three years, we'd be a different team right now." No, we ****ing wouldn't be... not much different a team at all most likely.

I know what you're thinking: "What about Pouliot at #8?" Yes, we could've used that pick to draft a forward (in a weak class of forwards once you got past the top 3 or 4 guys). And guess what? He would not make this roster until 2014-2015 earliest. Forsberg... whoever. None of those guys would've been close to making the team this year, or this fall either. The names being mentioned were (if I remember right) undersized kids, inexperienced and all with a fair amount of risk. None of them was close to being a sure thing.

NOW... if Shero does that THIS year (in a class supposedly loaded with good F talent in the first round), I agree 100% it would be an inexcusable mistake if there's a great F talent on the board for us.


BOTTOM LINE: Shero is a very good GM, who has consistently tried to make this team better and give himself the leverage to make good trades and FA acquisitions (via scounting, cap management and the rest). Just because he failed to get the only two assets worth making a big splash for this summer (Parise and Sutter), does not make him a bad GM, either. Like i said the only reason we lost out on both of those is because we're not the Minnesota Penguins.
Agree to disagree. It took Whitney and Goligoski 7 years from the time they were drafted until they had enough value to fetch a respectable winger. So is the plan to trade some of the guys we drafted last year in 2020 when Sid and Geno are in their mid 30's?

And we don't know what we have yet in Bennett. You just assume he will make this team and produce with Crosby. How'd that type of thinking work out for Tangradi who would be a great power foreword to play alongside Sid. I'm sure you though Luca Caputi was the answer. Maybe Chris Bourque? Surely Angelo Espisito who was a steal for this team so late in the first round would work out. Do you see a pattern here? All of these young guys / draft picks have been horrible.

I would be shocked at this point if Bennett amount to anything more than a Dustin Jeffrey type, decent 3rd liner that is beyond replaceable and repetitive.

Good luck waiting until 2020 when Shero will be wheeling and dealing our dmen drafted last year.

Fire Shero* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:54 AM
  #478
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 16,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in Crafton View Post
this is what i've always wondered about. in the era of the salary-cap, coaching is the one area where rich teams can overpay for the best coaches available. Burkle could afford to have Shero assemble a team of HOF coaches, but we're probably going the get the next guy up from WBS, which is what we did last time (hey, he got us a cup but that's not the point).
What's that old saying? "There's no cap on coaching and scouting."

Shero just has to choose to use the resources that he has available to him.

Ragamuffin Gunner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:57 AM
  #479
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
It took Whitney and Goligoski 7 years from the time they were drafted until they had enough value to fetch a respectable winger.
You only know the point at which Shero decided to trade them, you have no clue what their value was before they were traded.

IcedCapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:59 AM
  #480
Corsi Close
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,862
vCash: 500
Since we have a pretty big sample size to compare, doesn't it amaze people the difference in this team with and without Crosby in the lineup?

They play a completely different game without him. I suppose DB has them more focused without him.

I tried to do some advanced statistical analysis, not perfect but was able to do the last 60 games without Crosby over the last two seasons:

Overall Record: 34-21-5
Record w/o Crosby: 29-19-4
Difference of Win Percentage: .021

Also Malkin averages 1.47 points-per-game in Crosby's absence and 1.14 points-per-game when he is in.

Doesn't mean anything really, just as a fan I can't help but notice the difference.

Corsi Close is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:03 PM
  #481
Dupree13
Registered User
 
Dupree13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
Since we have a pretty big sample size to compare, doesn't it amaze people the difference in this team with and without Crosby in the lineup?

They play a completely different game without him. I suppose DB has them more focused without him.

I tried to do some advanced statistical analysis, not perfect but was able to do the last 60 games without Crosby over the last two seasons:

Overall Record: 34-21-5
Record w/o Crosby: 29-19-4
Difference of Win Percentage: .021

Also Malkin averages 1.47 points-per-game in Crosby's absence and 1.14 points-per-game when he is in.

Doesn't mean anything really, just as a fan I can't help but notice the difference.
No, thanks for doing that because even though it's sacrilege to a lot of folks, it's worth talking about. Everybody knows when things started going downhill last year and what it coincided with. I might get in trouble for this highly provocative and totally speculative statement, but I actually think maybe this goes beyond DB. Maybe there is something really afoul in the room with this group.

Dupree13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:05 PM
  #482
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 12,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
No, thanks for doing that because even though it's sacrilege to a lot of folks, it's worth talking about. Everybody knows when things started going downhill last year and what it coincided with. I might get in trouble for this highly provocative and totally speculative statement, but I actually think maybe this goes beyond DB. Maybe there is something really afoul in the room with this group.
No it's definitely the coaches. How do you blame the players when you add a superstar to the lineup and the team is less consistent? That's on the coaches, not some locker room speculation.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:08 PM
  #483
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
What's that old saying? "There's no cap on coaching and scouting."

Shero just has to choose to use the resources that he has available to him.
He has.

Funny that the people who have little faith in his philosophy, drafting, trading, roster construction have every faith in his choice of coaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
No it's definitely the coaches. How do you blame the players when you add a superstar to the lineup and the team is less consistent? That's on the coaches, not some locker room speculation.
THIS.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:26 PM
  #484
Shockmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,204
vCash: 500
From Josh Yohe's twitter:

Quote:
Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib

Just watched Pens practice power play for 20 minutes. It was very troubling.

Shockmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:28 PM
  #485
cheesedanish87
Registered User
 
cheesedanish87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 5,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
From Josh Yohe's twitter:
Considering DB has been trying to figure out how to use a pp with 87 and 71 for years i really wasent expecting any kind of solution at practice today.

cheesedanish87 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:28 PM
  #486
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
From Josh Yohe's twitter:
Remember this from four years ago too, unfortunately . . .

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:29 PM
  #487
Dupree13
Registered User
 
Dupree13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Dude. This PP was sick last year. Once Malkin and Neal got in sync they were up to top 5 in the league. Add Sid back and it turned to garbage literally instantly. Too many cooks in the kitchen guys, there's something to it.

Dupree13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:31 PM
  #488
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 12,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
Considering DB has been trying to figure out how to use a pp with 87 and 71 for years i really wasent expecting any kind of solution at practice today.
They need to do one of two things: Make Malkin play the point or make Crosby play down low. The former would fill a hole, the latter makes sense because frankly Malkin is better on the half wall and Crosby is better down low even though he doesn't want to play there. Same BS as the last few years. No one has the balls to say anything.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:31 PM
  #489
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Dude. This PP was sick last year. Once Malkin and Neal got in sync they were up to top 5 in the league. Add Sid back and it turned to garbage literally instantly. Too many cooks in the kitchen guys, there's something to it.
Too many cooks in the kitchen, and a street bum putting together the recipe book.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:33 PM
  #490
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
They need to do one of two things: Make Malkin play the point or make Crosby play down low. The former would fill a hole, the latter makes sense because frankly Malkin is better on the half wall and Crosby is better down low even though he doesn't want to play there. Same BS as the last few years. No one has the balls to say anything.
In a way, I don't think it matters who plays where until they learn how to move around (people and pucks) and provide puck support. Bylsma is a checkers player trying to play a game of chess. His work with the PP is that ******* bad.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:35 PM
  #491
Shockmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,204
vCash: 500
The need to put Crosby and Malkin on opposite sides of the PP. They both want to be in that right circle and it makes it very easy for the other team's PK to smother that side with no virtually no threat on the left side. Neal, who lead the NHL is PPGs last season, is in a position he won't score from very often.

Management really needs to bring in a PP coach.

Shockmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
  #492
Tasty Biscuits
with fancy sauce
 
Tasty Biscuits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,725
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
Agree to disagree. It took Whitney and Goligoski 7 years from the time they were drafted until they had enough value to fetch a respectable winger. So is the plan to trade some of the guys we drafted last year in 2020 when Sid and Geno are in their mid 30's?
The 7 year argument is silly, because both Gogo and Whitney went the college route, and spent 3 years there. Of course it would take longer for their value as a pro to go up.

A guy like Morrow is a pro just a year after being drafted, and every one else (Despres, soon to be Mattaa and Pouliot) will be so two years after being drafted.

Also, prospects can be traded for a prospect of a similar ilk, but, with Bylsma at the helm it would be pointless, 'cause it's not like if we picked up a decent F prosect in a trade he'd be put in the right situation to succeed at the NHL level anyways.

Tasty Biscuits is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
  #493
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
The need to put Crosby and Malkin on opposite sides of the PP. They both want to be in that right circle and it makes it very easy for the other team's PK to smother that side with no virtually no threat on the left side. Neal, who lead the NHL is PPGs last season, is in a position he won't score from very often.

Management really needs to bring in a PP coach.
Really, the only two threats to score on the PP are Geno and Neal, and either one or both isn't in a position to do that pretty much all the time.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
  #494
Dupree13
Registered User
 
Dupree13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
and Crosby is better down low even though he doesn't want to play there. Same BS as the last few years. No one has the balls to say anything.
Boom, that's just it. We're trying to build a team unit while trying to keep two superstars happy in terms of giving them roles and line-mates befitting of their status. It's just a tough, tough balance to strike and when it's off it just throws the whole team off and leads to incoherence.

But with one of them out everything kind of falls into place.

Dupree13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:38 PM
  #495
Tasty Biscuits
with fancy sauce
 
Tasty Biscuits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,725
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
The need to put Crosby and Malkin on opposite sides of the PP. They both want to be in that right circle and it makes it very easy for the other team's PK to smother that side with no virtually no threat on the left side. Neal, who lead the NHL is PPGs last season, is in a position he won't score from very often.

Management really needs to bring in a PP coach.
They need to run two "A" units is what they need to do.

Tasty Biscuits is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:39 PM
  #496
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Boom, that's just it. We're trying to build a team unit while trying to keep two superstars happy in terms of giving them roles and line-mates befitting of their status. It's just a tough, tough balance to strike and when it's off it just throws the whole team off and leads to incoherence.

But with one of them out everything kind of falls into place.
Two good wingers for each. A PP unit for each (the one who's freshest comes out first). Not even Bylsma could **** that up . . .







































. . . I think

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
They need to run two "A" units is what they need to do.
With Kunitz and Letang, I'm not sure they've got enough for one.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:41 PM
  #497
Shrimper
Trick or ruddy treat
 
Shrimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 72,062
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
From Josh Yohe's twitter:
So, they can't even beat Orpik cardboard cutouts?

Shrimper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:42 PM
  #498
Goalie_Bob
1992 Vezina (2nd)
 
Goalie_Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,464
vCash: 500
Why not put Letang, who is a RH shot on the left boards. He is totally useless at the point because he has no shot. Teams just rush him knowing he is just gonna pass the puck.

Honestly, until DB gets his head out of his ass and puts a RH shot on the left boards this PP will be garbage and definitely not as good it could be.

Goalie_Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:42 PM
  #499
Corsi Close
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
They need to do one of two things: Make Malkin play the point or make Crosby play down low. The former would fill a hole, the latter makes sense because frankly Malkin is better on the half wall and Crosby is better down low even though he doesn't want to play there. Same BS as the last few years. No one has the balls to say anything.
Maybe they don't to this because of the abuse he would take, but Crosby would be a beast down low. His hand/eye and ability to pounce on rebounds is deadly.

Don't understand why they don't do this, opens up the whole PP.

Corsi Close is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:43 PM
  #500
Shockmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Boom, that's just it. We're trying to build a team unit while trying to keep two superstars happy in terms of giving them roles and line-mates befitting of their status. It's just a tough, tough balance to strike and when it's off it just throws the whole team off and leads to incoherence.

But with one of them out everything kind of falls into place.
If it's better for the team, I really don't see Crosby or Malkin *****ing about moving to a different position. They aren't like that. *cough* Ovechkin *cough* *cough*

Quote:
They need to run two "A" units is what they need to do.
No. When you have the two best players in the world on your team, you find a way to make it work with both of them. The problem is the coaching staff is putting imaginary limits as to where those two can play on the PP, which is making Neal a non-factor on the PP and hurting the unit as a whole.

Shockmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.