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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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01-30-2013, 11:28 AM
  #901
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
IMO the Canucks roster is more talented than the Sharks roster. Seems silly to say it right now given the current state of things, but you know what I mean.
More talented?

Not sure, wouldn't even say the 2010-2011 Nucks were more talented, but better 'team'.

I could definitely get on board with that.

We've got better goaltending, when it comes together, I like our blue line way more, and our top 9 depth IMO blows them out of the water - I'd say San Jose like Chicago, probably has the better group of top 4 forwards.

Sedin's, Kesler, Burr (Booth, Higgins...Kassian?) vs Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski (Clowe, Havlat....) vs Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa (Bolland....).

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01-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #902
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More talented?

Not sure, wouldn't even say the 2010-2011 Nucks were more talented, but better 'team'.

I could definitely get on board with that.

We've got better goaltending, when it comes together, I like our blue line way more, and our top 9 depth IMO blows them out of the water - I'd say San Jose like Chicago, probably has the better group of top 4 forwards.

Sedin's, Kesler, Burr (Booth, Higgins...Kassian?) vs Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski (Clowe, Havlat....) vs Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa (Bolland....).
I'll take our forward group over the Sharks any day of the week, unless that day of the week is at the start of a shortened when Patrick Marleau is just exploding

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01-30-2013, 11:37 AM
  #903
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Sorry.

Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, as well as Staal up the middle....it's not convenient, I feel San Jose more closely resembles Vancouver.

Pittsburgh and Chicago both made coaching moves that put them over the top (although lots of rumbles about Bylsma are out there right now) but those were very young teams, not comparable to Vancouver.

Boston is probably a team that didn't make the move, and reaped the benefit...
That's a team that had some pretty clear roster deficits, especially in goal. But, as I said, there's obviously a great deal of luck that goes into winning in the post-season, both off ice and on ice.

I think my point was more that the same patterns continue for Vancouver. They always start slow, new defensemen always have a difficult time incorporating into the system (which is a huge problem when injuries occur and the team makes deadline acquisitions), and the team seems to have notable meltdowns. I'm trying to think of a team that's absolutely been blown out of the water as routinely as the Canucks have in the past 5 years. A lot of people blame that on Luongo, but I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

And since 2006-2007, the Canucks have relied almost exclusively on their PP to generate offense in the post-season, putting up between a 20%-25% PP rate. It's good (great, even) to have a strong power play, but their offense otherwise has been wildly inconsistent.

I don't like the adjustments the team makes when the post-season begins. They become a more defense-first, low-event team, and I think it's completely unnecessary. It reminds me of the way John Fox coached the Broncos this January.

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01-30-2013, 11:40 AM
  #904
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I don't like the adjustments the team makes when the post-season begins. They become a more defense-first, low-event team, and I think it's completely unnecessary. It reminds me of the way John Fox coached the Broncos this January.
I agree with this. I'd like to see AV get one shot at the playoffs with a decent third line centre. Teams with only one and a half lines that can score have to play low event games. We actually scored in the playoffs when we had Wellwood there.


Last edited by Scurr: 01-30-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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01-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Babs View Post
I think Bylsma is the abberation there not SJ. Now I don't know the numbers exactly but I can't think of another Coaching change on a perennial contender that put a team over "the hump".

Boudreau for Hunter/Oates= way worse off
Wilson for McLellan= made zero diference
Renney for Torts= same
Stevens for Laviolette= same diff

Edit: Forgot about Chicago but as mentioned in the post above those were stacked young teams. Philly and SJ are teams that are closer to the Canucks.
Uh, LA last year?

Ridiculously small sample size there. The anecdotal evidence actually supports the idea that long-term coaches don't win, but it's hard to base conclusions on either of those things. Coaching changes result in a short-term bump, but most of the difference isn't felt until the next season. Firing AV this year doesn't make sense given the shortened schedule. I would have done it last summer, but Gillis has attached his boat to that anchor already.

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01-30-2013, 11:49 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I don't like the adjustments the team makes when the post-season begins. They become a more defense-first, low-event team, and I think it's completely unnecessary. It reminds me of the way John Fox coached the Broncos this January.
That's a big reason why I don't like AV. He overcoaches in the playoffs.That last game had the AV playoff feel to it with the way he had the team chipping the puck into the LA end to protect the lead.

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01-30-2013, 11:52 AM
  #907
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I actually think AV is a really good coach (iffy on Bowness), but I think he's met his best before date in Vancouver.

Agreed.

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01-30-2013, 11:57 AM
  #908
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This just proves that the hatred of Vigneault is irrational. People have been calling for his head since the day he was hired and all he has done is make players better and gotten this team to the top of the NHL and to a game within a cup.

There's a reason why Gillis kept him when he got here. He's a very good coach and if you don't think so you need to post some numbers as evidence vis a vis other coaches over the same length of time.

The problem with you guys and many other fans is that you engage in hero worship when it comes to the players. God forbid you hold them accountable. So instead you blame the coach.If Bieksa sucks, that's on him.
I couldn't agree more. I've noticed that the majority of those posting they want AV fired are relatively new to the boards, although it's possible they've been hating AV for years for valid reasons unknown. Having been around as long as I have this chirping goes on in cycles. At some point the franchise may want to make a coaching change but it will never be because Vigneault was a bad coach, with his numbers and successes with player development that won't happen. Some of the alternative coaches people throw around are still pretty funny though.

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01-30-2013, 12:08 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I agree with this. I'd like to see AV get one shot at the playoffs with a decent third line centre. Teams with only one and a half lines that can score have to play low event games. We actually scored in the playoffs when we had Wellwood there.
AV had a decent third line centre last season before the trade deadline, and wanted nothing to do with him. He wasn't a big Wellwood fan, either.

Shortly after CH won "Rookie of the Month" in February, AV declared to the media that his lineup required "more balance", and he was moved to the 4th line.

I don't bring up Hodgson to start another debate about that player, but to point out that AV has a type, and part of the reason he hasn't had scoring 3rd line is because he doesn't want one.

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01-30-2013, 12:50 PM
  #910
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I am not as displeased with AV as I am with Bowness. Our defence is incredibly weak and Bowness deserves the blame. Just watch our d-men's positioning throughout the game. That is coaching, not the players. Get this guy outta here.

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01-30-2013, 12:51 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
I don't bring up Hodgson to start another debate about that player, but to point out that AV has a type, and part of the reason he hasn't had scoring 3rd line is because he doesn't want one.
I disagree. He played Wellwood... a lot. MG makes personnel decisions, not AV. Hodgson was scoring but was also losing the possession battle against favourable match ups. He was a net_drain on the team.

AV needs a third line centre that can win the possession battle and contribute offensively.

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01-30-2013, 12:56 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
I am not as displeased with AV as I am with Bowness. Our defence is incredibly weak and Bowness deserves the blame. Just watch our d-men's positioning throughout the game. That is coaching, not the players. Get this guy outta here.
If you're going to push your offence with your defence like the Canucks (Gillis specifically) have chosen to do, you're going to have to live with some mistakes. Especially this early in the season. I still remember the style we played pre-Gillis... I'll live with the mistakes.

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01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I disagree. He played Wellwood... a lot. MG makes personnel decisions, not AV. Hodgson was scoring but was also losing the possession battle against favourable match ups. He was a net_drain on the team.

AV needs a third line centre that can win the possession battle and contribute offensively.
We'll agree to disagree. Hodgson had 16 goals in 63 games and was a +8. I count that as a net positive contribution, regardless of some advanced statistic.

I agree that Wellwood was a more effective player than he was given credit for, but I believe that part of the reason he wasn't retained is that the coach didn't really see a fit for him.

Remember when a reporter (was it Kenward?) mentioned that Wellwood had been playing "like a man possesed" and Vigneault thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard?

To me, it seemed like he never had much faith in Wellwood, and was always looking for an excuse to play him less.

Not that a player like Hodgson or Wellwood are perfect players, by any means. But the type of player you suggest - the type that can win the possession battle and contribute offensively - is probably a second line player, not a third.

I think Vigneault fees like an offensive player has to be a fixture in the top six. On his bottom two lines, he's much more comfortable with your Malhotras and Pahlssons and Volpattis and Cowans than with your Hogdsons, Grabners, Shirokovs or Wellwoods.

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01-30-2013, 01:32 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If you're going to push your offence with your defence like the Canucks (Gillis specifically) have chosen to do, you're going to have to live with some mistakes. Especially this early in the season. I still remember the style we played pre-Gillis... I'll live with the mistakes.
None of which has anything to do with Bowness (look at Phoenix during his time there). I agree with Gillis' and by extension, AV's team philosophy of a defence that can provide offence. What worries me is that our defence is getting worse at providing offence while maintaining responsible defence, mostly due to mistakes that are preventable (backing into our goalie's face for example). Offensive contribution does not excuse defensive failure, which our team seems to experience when it matters most. Issues that should be addressed that aren't, are stitches dropped by the coaches. Why should they not shoulder the blame?

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01-30-2013, 01:52 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
AV had a decent third line centre last season before the trade deadline, and wanted nothing to do with him. He wasn't a big Wellwood fan, either.

Shortly after CH won "Rookie of the Month" in February, AV declared to the media that his lineup required "more balance", and he was moved to the 4th line.

I don't bring up Hodgson to start another debate about that player, but to point out that AV has a type, and part of the reason he hasn't had scoring 3rd line is because he doesn't want one.
Hodgson was a decent third line centre because AV went through all kinds of contortions to get him on the ice in the best possible situations. He wanted a guy that he didn't have to do that with. I can't really blame him.

I think he was fine with Wellwood, mostly, although he obviously would prefer a guy that he could use heavily for D-zone starts against any opposition. Him being on Wellwood publicly was a motivational tool, IMO.

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01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
  #916
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Hodgson was a decent third line centre because AV went through all kinds of contortions to get him on the ice in the best possible situations. He wanted a guy that he didn't have to do that with. I can't really blame him.

I think he was fine with Wellwood, mostly, although he obviously would prefer a guy that he could use heavily for D-zone starts against any opposition. Him being on Wellwood publicly was a motivational tool, IMO.
AV did do this, and it would have been detrimental in the Canuck's system to have to jockey around one player's weaknesses to keep him productive.

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01-30-2013, 02:36 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
None of which has anything to do with Bowness (look at Phoenix during his time there). I agree with Gillis' and by extension, AV's team philosophy of a defence that can provide offence. What worries me is that our defence is getting worse at providing offence while maintaining responsible defence, mostly due to mistakes that are preventable (backing into our goalie's face for example). Offensive contribution does not excuse defensive failure, which our team seems to experience when it matters most. Issues that should be addressed that aren't, are stitches dropped by the coaches. Why should they not shoulder the blame?
The blame for what, exactly? We've been a good to great defensive team in the regular season and playoffs in Bowness tenure.

The defence is making mistakes, lots of them. I think it has to do with how demanding we are on defensemen and I'm willing to put up with that because that style is much more appealing and more effective in the long run.

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01-30-2013, 03:17 PM
  #918
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I have to disagree on putting any blame on the Assistant coaches. At the end of the day it's the head coach's job. Let's see what AV has in store for us tonight.

By the way, did anyone hear his interview after the LA Kings debacle? He said the reason he didn't put Kassian out was because he was trying to line match what the Kings put out. IE. Matching Kopitar with the third line who we know can't score. Essentially what AV is doing is letting the other team dictate what he puts on the ice.. just like the Hawks series. Essentially during the overtime all AV focused on was matching what the Kings put out with checkers who would not have won us the game. Isin't the point of overtime to get a goal instead of defending?

Why is he letting the other team dictate what he puts out on the ice, and why is the goal of the people out in the ice to just defend even though we should have tried to win it in overtime?

Anyone care to explain?


Last edited by Grub: 01-30-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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01-30-2013, 03:25 PM
  #919
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I have to disagree on putting any blame on the Assistant coaches. At the end of the day it's the head coach's job. Let's see what AV has in store for us tonight.
Spoiler alert: Two goal lead -> prevent defence -> lose.

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01-30-2013, 03:38 PM
  #920
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Anyone care to explain?
That's the ultimate question, isn't it? The Canucks didn't win 2 consecutive PTs playing the opposition's game but they do it in the playoffs. Two nights ago I had awful flashbacks watching that 3rd period.

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01-30-2013, 04:01 PM
  #921
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AV had a decent third line centre last season before the trade deadline, and wanted nothing to do with him. He wasn't a big Wellwood fan, either.

Shortly after CH won "Rookie of the Month" in February, AV declared to the media that his lineup required "more balance", and he was moved to the 4th line.

I don't bring up Hodgson to start another debate about that player, but to point out that AV has a type, and part of the reason he hasn't had scoring 3rd line is because he doesn't want one.
Untrue.

He wants a 3rd line that can check and provide offense.

Young Hodgson couldn't, got destroyed by other 3rd lines prior to trade. I've never seen Helm and Abdelkader dominate anyone, yet when they saw Hodgson out there they were salivating.

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01-30-2013, 04:04 PM
  #922
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He wants a 3rd line that can check and provide offense.
I feel like he does too but until he plays one in the playoffs, the evidence is stacked against him.

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01-30-2013, 04:04 PM
  #923
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I have to disagree on putting any blame on the Assistant coaches. At the end of the day it's the head coach's job. Let's see what AV has in store for us tonight.

By the way, did anyone hear his interview after the LA Kings debacle? He said the reason he didn't put Kassian out was because he was trying to line match what the Kings put out. IE. Matching Kopitar with the third line who we know can't score. Essentially what AV is doing is letting the other team dictate what he puts on the ice.. just like the Hawks series. Essentially during the overtime all AV focused on was matching what the Kings put out with checkers who would not have won us the game. Isin't the point of overtime to get a goal instead of defending?

Why is he letting the other team dictate what he puts out on the ice, and why is the goal of the people out in the ice to just defend even though we should have tried to win it in overtime?

Anyone care to explain?
I know you especially complained when AV did the opposite in the past. When he didn't try to avoid matchups it was the same song and dance from you....

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01-30-2013, 04:05 PM
  #924
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I feel like he does too but until he plays one in the playoffs, the evidence is stacked against him.
Hard to do that without having the personnel, don't you think?

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01-30-2013, 04:08 PM
  #925
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It's funny about Sutter of La kings the man who many blame for hurting flames with player manouvers.Same man who was out of work for a few years.Team has trouble scoring goals in his seasons as coach.But some how he wins cup and now considered a genious by media.Strange is it not

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