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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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01-30-2013, 09:33 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
As usual, folks here overreact after a few games of lackluster play.

DD hasn't been playing that bad, although he isn't playing to the level he can. That happens in hockey and it's nothing to be overly worried about, especially when the team is winning. Not having Pacs there hurts and not being the go-to line anymore also hurts. If I was Therrien, I would try to shake things up without affecting the other lines by switching Eller (who clearly isn't comfortable on the wing) to center and Desharnais on the LW. At the very least, that would help in the defensive zone, where Eller is superior to DD.
He hasn't been able to receive a pass and he reminds me Ryder because of all the loss of puck control that he causes. DD has been atrocious.

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01-30-2013, 09:48 AM
  #202
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As usual, folks here overreact after a few games of lackluster play.
Worth repeating, humming it as a daily prayer, printing it on a t-shirt, and saying it when you answer the phone in place of "Hello". Holy crap... the level of ADHD in this place...

Desharnais got 60 points centering wingers who are talented, but not superstars. Neither Cole nor Pacioretty carried him to those assists -- he earned them. That line was one of the best we've had in ages and people want to blow it up based on five games? Come on now. Patches is coming back in two weeks, Cole is warming up and DD is finding his groove. He's a tenacious bugger with great vision and those skills don't disappear because of five lousy games.

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01-30-2013, 12:49 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
I admire Desharnais for telling it like it is...I already liked his down to earth nature in interviews...but I respect him even more now.
I hope there's a way we can keep everyone! (Pleks, Galchenyuk of course, Eller, DD, Leblanc...). But to be honest...if someone gave us a solid/big/gritty defensive top 4 dman (relatively young or young veteran) for DD+Weber, or...DD+Kaberle... I'd take it (depending on how solid this dman is).

I was actually thinking that DD could struggle without one of Paciorety or Cole. DD's recent value went down from $3.5 - 4mil/year to 2.5mil to 2.75mil/year,imo...good for our cap (also easier to keep DD!).
Posts like this drive me crazy!!!!
He's lucky if he will get 1 million$. It's funny, but not one person on any other team has offered a 1 for 1 center trade with DD in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1336155
It seems that no other fan base wants him. But let's pay him top salary in Montreal eh

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01-30-2013, 12:51 PM
  #204
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Posts like this drive me crazy!!!!
He's lucky if he will get 1 million$. It's funny, but not one person on any other team has offered a 1 for 1 center trade with DD in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1336155
It seems that no other fan base wants him. But let's pay him top salary in Montreal eh
I don't even know where to start with all the things wrong with this post.

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01-30-2013, 12:53 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Worth repeating, humming it as a daily prayer, printing it on a t-shirt, and saying it when you answer the phone in place of "Hello". Holy crap... the level of ADHD in this place...

Desharnais got 60 points centering wingers who are talented, but not superstars. Neither Cole nor Pacioretty carried him to those assists -- he earned them. That line was one of the best we've had in ages and people want to blow it up based on five games? Come on now. Patches is coming back in two weeks, Cole is warming up and DD is finding his groove. He's a tenacious bugger with great vision and those skills don't disappear because of five lousy games.
I think the days where Paches and Cole carrying DD are over

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01-30-2013, 01:01 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
I think the days where Paches and Cole carrying DD are over
Pacioretty and Cole both had career highs playing with Desharnais as their centre. Coincidence, you think?

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01-30-2013, 01:03 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Pacioretty and Cole both had career highs playing with Desharnais as their centre. Coincidence, you think?
Maybe it's Desharnais and Cole have career years playing with Pacioretty.

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01-30-2013, 01:07 PM
  #208
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Maybe it's Desharnais and Cole have career years playing with Pacioretty.
Yes!!! Same way Gomez was having a great year with him until Chara incident.

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01-30-2013, 01:23 PM
  #209
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he'll come around

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01-30-2013, 01:24 PM
  #210
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i think it's pretty obvious that DD line was put in a position to 'score'. Where the strategy was build around specializing lines to certain duties, in those terms JM was a genius.

Pretty obvious, the coaching this year relies more on 'motivation' and 'support' where team game and hardwork is the 'strategy' (actually, the real strategy is Markov and the PP) and much less on specialty work and line matching.

Patches and Cole both benefited the same way DD did, by playing weaker opposition. They are all great players, but obviously overachieved last season given set coaching strategy.

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01-30-2013, 01:44 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think it's likely he's just not that good a player, and we should be lucky to see this before he negotiates his contract next summer.

Last year he benefited from ridiculously easy opposition. His Corsi Rel Qoc was +0.007. To give you an idea, Joe Thornton plays against +1.497 players, Jeff Carter against +1.349 players, Jonathan Toews against +1.011 players, and so on. Desharnais had ridiculously easy minutes for a 1st line center, and he produced at a mediocre clip of 1.97 points/60 minutes, which is 36th in the league for offensive production among centers. People like to point out he was 14th among centers for production, but that's primarily because he had a ton of minutes.

He's probably just not very good. Good thing we find out in time, this will keep his second contract low, below 1.5 million.
Something doesn't add up here...

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01-30-2013, 01:45 PM
  #212
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Something doesn't add up here...
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Karlsson had a ton of ice time in Ottawa, and he was quite sheltered.

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01-30-2013, 01:50 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Karlsson had a ton of ice time in Ottawa, and he was quite sheltered.
If they got huge minutes, then how could they all be easy minutes? It's not the same when you're speaking about a number 1 center, who often has the other team's top line to play against. Not to mention the powerplay.

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01-30-2013, 01:59 PM
  #214
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Maybe the Habs should had kept Gomez.


DD and Eller are pretty inept so far.

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01-30-2013, 02:47 PM
  #215
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DD has 2 shots on goal in 5 games, playin more than 16 minute/game ane with a ton powerplay....White got 7 even Moen got 3.....that's not just a slow start, that close to ridiculous!

He's minus 1...while 17 other players are in the plus.
He got two passes sor far, one on a powerplay and One on a 5 on 3.

1- His ice time dropped with Therrien playing all 4 lines
2- The Gallys experience work so well, Gally27 start to take PP out of DD's time.

Therrien use a pro-active systems....players must go after the puck and try to force the other teams into mistakes. Martin...the other way around, wait for the other team's mistakes,

DD won't fit that mole, not enough good in his battle one-on-one

But in the end.....it just so easy to stop DD from playing this games.
Therrien wants speed.....he's slow
Therrien wants grit......he got none
Therrien wants toughness....he got none

Tradeblock as far as i'm concern before his value drop too low!!

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01-30-2013, 02:49 PM
  #216
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what kind of value would you put on a repeat performance of last year for DD? what are we talking here in terms of cap hit?

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01-30-2013, 02:51 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
If they got huge minutes, then how could they all be easy minutes? It's not the same when you're speaking about a number 1 center, who often has the other team's top line to play against. Not to mention the powerplay.
Well he said they were easy minutes. I don't think that means all his shifts were sheltered, but the stats prove that a lot of them were.

Not saying he's a terrible player, he isn't. He's a good hockey player, but he did get fairly easy assignments last year compared to other players.

Like I said, Karlsson had huge minutes, and they were pretty sheltered as well. Not necessarily a knock on either player, just a reality in respect to their ice time.
Karlsson thrived under sheltered minutes, so did DD. So it's not necessarily a bad thing. At home DD had pretty easy matchups, since the coach controlled the changes. On the road he struggled a fair amount in terms of production, if I recall correctly.

Having lots of ice time, and having sheltered assignments really aren't mutually exclusive in my opinion.

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01-30-2013, 03:48 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
People have stated many times the useless statistic that DD was 14th for points among centers last season, the implication is that he is a 1st line center.


He got babied minutes in 2011-2012, but he faced more challenging competition in 2010-2011.


I can't recall anybody ever referring to Pacioretty as a franchise player. I think he's merely considered a very good player to have.

Anyhow you shouldn't equate Pacioretty's performance to Desharnais'. One had 16 goals and 44 assists in 81 games, the other had 33 goals and 32 assists in 79 games. The points per game is marginally higher, but more importantly the goals-to-assists ratio is far higher. For a fixed number of points, goals are much more valuable than assists. That's because the NHL gives out more assists than goals.
The implication is that he produced like one and not that he is. There is a difference between passing as one offensively and actually being one.

Either way, I'm not sure why you constantly bring it up. I confuses the hell out of me how we can both agree that Desharnais is not a first line center and when I try to progress topic you bring up something I agreed on a long time ago. So once again, yes, DD is not a first line center, can we move on? I understand people have said this or that and you bring it up to gauge my opinion on the subject while we discuss but I think we're past that. He's not a 1st line center.

So you're saying people are basing off his 37 game season and 14 goals that he's 1st line talent? Isn't that a small sample size considering you're admitting last year it was babied minutes.

I, along with others including management refer to Pacioretty, Subban and Price as the faces of the franchise going forward. Perhaps franchise was a strong term but 1st line talent has been brought up no question about it.

I agree with that, I find goals more important but just the same not every goal has 2 assists, some have 1 or zero. So, the ratio isnt as strong as 2:1 for instance but it is definitely present.

What I don't understand however is the portion I encouraged you to actually answer you completely ignored. You even deleted it from the quote!

Quote:
Also, when you play on road you don't get easy matchups correct? If you're a 1st line it is very hard to protect you. Now explain why Max's road production wasn't comparable to his Home production? However, DD made more points than max on the road. hmmmm. you know, those line match ups, that QCOM you talk about, this is it.
So again, based on above, why is that when the minutes aren't sheltered pacioretty suffered more than desharnais?

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DD>>>>Pacioretty, quite the opposite. I just don't understand how people use selective stats or concepts to support their players.



Man, other day I heard "I hope Desharnais doesn't produce because if he does then he'd get a raise and we'd be paying for someone who doesn't produce".

If I have to explain why that is ****ing retarded then I give up. Please don't try to justify it.

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01-30-2013, 03:51 PM
  #219
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DD has 2 shots on goal in 5 games, playin more than 16 minute/game ane with a ton powerplay....White got 7 even Moen got 3.....that's not just a slow start, that close to ridiculous!

He's minus 1...while 17 other players are in the plus.
He got two passes sor far, one on a powerplay and One on a 5 on 3.

1- His ice time dropped with Therrien playing all 4 lines
2- The Gallys experience work so well, Gally27 start to take PP out of DD's time.

Therrien use a pro-active systems....players must go after the puck and try to force the other teams into mistakes. Martin...the other way around, wait for the other team's mistakes,

DD won't fit that mole, not enough good in his battle one-on-one

But in the end.....it just so easy to stop DD from playing this games.
Therrien wants speed.....he's slow
Therrien wants grit......he got none
Therrien wants toughness....he got none

Tradeblock as far as i'm concern before his value drop too low!!
Seriously, last year with his 60 points. I honestly wish he had about 300 shots and 30 points instead because shots are what count.

Maybe we'll be lucky and when pacioretty comes back he'll have a lot of shots! I hope his penchant to score goals doesn't get in the way of him getting 2-3 quality rebounds on a shift because shots matter so much.


Jokes aside, shots do matter but context does too. Are we seriously worried a playmaker has a low shot total after 5 NHL games???

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01-30-2013, 03:51 PM
  #220
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Well he said they were easy minutes. I don't think that means all his shifts were sheltered, but the stats prove that a lot of them were.

Not saying he's a terrible player, he isn't. He's a good hockey player, but he did get fairly easy assignments last year compared to other players.

Like I said, Karlsson had huge minutes, and they were pretty sheltered as well. Not necessarily a knock on either player, just a reality in respect to their ice time.
Karlsson thrived under sheltered minutes, so did DD. So it's not necessarily a bad thing. At home DD had pretty easy matchups, since the coach controlled the changes. On the road he struggled a fair amount in terms of production, if I recall correctly.

Having lots of ice time, and having sheltered assignments really aren't mutually exclusive in my opinion.
Karlsson wasn't sheltered all that much. He wasn't in Subban's role but the Sens sent him up against quality opposition.

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01-30-2013, 03:54 PM
  #221
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If they got huge minutes, then how could they all be easy minutes? It's not the same when you're speaking about a number 1 center, who often has the other team's top line to play against. Not to mention the powerplay.
It is a fact that dd had eady minutes, look up his corsi rel qoc.

He also had a lot of minutes. He was fourteenth fir totsl points but not for points per sixty. Some better cenrers, such as r
Toews, had more points but fewer minutes. Look it up.

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01-30-2013, 03:58 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Karlsson wasn't sheltered all that much. He wasn't in Subban's role but the Sens sent him up against quality opposition.
I should have qualified it, my bad. Compared to other top pairing d-men I believe he was sheltered a bit. He still had a decent quality of competition, but for his role on the team, he was somewhat given easier ice time. Kind of like DD was compared to other top line centers. No knock on Karlsson, he had a great season and his defensive play is very underrated. I don't think easier minutes is necessarily a bad thing. Personally I think that's smart coaching. If you can give someone an advantageous position and they happen perform, it's a win-win.

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01-30-2013, 03:59 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The implication is that he produced like one and not that he is. There is a difference between passing as one offensively and actually being one.

Either way, I'm not sure why you constantly bring it up. I confuses the hell out of me how we can both agree that Desharnais is not a first line center and when I try to progress topic you bring up something I agreed on a long time ago. So once again, yes, DD is not a first line center, can we move on? I understand people have said this or that and you bring it up to gauge my opinion on the subject while we discuss but I think we're past that. He's not a 1st line center.

So you're saying people are basing off his 37 game season and 14 goals that he's 1st line talent? Isn't that a small sample size considering you're admitting last year it was babied minutes.

I, along with others including management refer to Pacioretty, Subban and Price as the faces of the franchise going forward. Perhaps franchise was a strong term but 1st line talent has been brought up no question about it.

I agree with that, I find goals more important but just the same not every goal has 2 assists, some have 1 or zero. So, the ratio isnt as strong as 2:1 for instance but it is definitely present.

What I don't understand however is the portion I encouraged you to actually answer you completely ignored. You even deleted it from the quote!



So again, based on above, why is that when the minutes aren't sheltered pacioretty suffered more than desharnais?

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DD>>>>Pacioretty, quite the opposite. I just don't understand how people use selective stats or concepts to support their players.



Man, other day I heard "I hope Desharnais doesn't produce because if he does then he'd get a raise and we'd be paying for someone who doesn't produce".

If I have to explain why that is ****ing retarded then I give up. Please don't try to justify it.
I only deleted the oarts addressed to other posters.

And yes, pacioretty's fourteen goals in thirty srven games counts for a lot.

But... Nobody considers pacioretty a franchise player... Price is our only franchise player now.

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01-30-2013, 04:04 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I should have qualified it, my bad. Compared to other top pairing d-men I believe he was sheltered a bit. He still had a decent quality of competition, but for his role on the team, he was somewhat given easier ice time. Kind of like DD was compared to other top line centers. No knock on Karlsson, he had a great season and his defensive play is very underrated. I don't think easier minutes is necessarily a bad thing. Personally I think that's smart coaching. If you can give someone an advantageous position and they happen perform, it's a win-win.
The problem is with DD it wasn't smart coaching, because the wing depth beyond that line was so terrible that by putting all our offense on one line we relied on them for virtually everything, and they weren't quite good enough for that. AV does something similar with the Sedins, but the Sedins are ridiculously good at exploiting weaknesses.

It's a great thing to have on an already stacked team (Briere on Philly is the logical comparison), but if that's your first line you are in trouble.

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01-30-2013, 04:06 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I only deleted the oarts addressed to other posters.

And yes, pacioretty's fourteen goals in thirty srven games counts for a lot.

But... Nobody considers pacioretty a franchise player... Price is our only franchise player now.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=194

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=149

if you don't see you're missing a paragraph addressed to you then dunno what to say. 2nd time in a row you ignore it, even after I had to reference it and specifically tell you to reply to it.

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