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Do you fire Laviolette? (Philadelphia Daily News article dated March 12, 2013)

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01-30-2013, 03:40 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I don't understand the hate on Homer.

They guy has done everything he could possibly do to make the team better.

Homer

-Has given us a solid young core
-Went out and paid big bucks in effort to solve the goaltending issue
-Went out and tried to bring home Weber
-Isn't afraid to ruffle feathers and piss people off to get what he wants

Despite occasionally making us want to pull our hair out, the guy has balls of steel and has done a great job as GM.

With all the talent in the world on this team, its not his job to coach them. He just has to get the talent on the ice. Hes done that quite nicely.
I like him too but if it's between him and Lavi it's a no-brainer. There's no reason Lavi should take the fall for Holmgren's complete and utter failure to put in place what he was told to go out and get. It was his job to get certain players, and before the off-season started, everyone was on the same page. Snider knew which players he wanted Homer to get, Homer knew which players he was supposed to get, Lavi knew which players he needed for his style to be successful. They all did. Then they just didn't materialize. Why not?

I don't hate him at all. He had just one miserable horrible year. I'd like to see both keep their jobs. But in a fair world Homer would be given the boot before Lavi.

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01-30-2013, 03:47 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
I like him too but if it's between him and Lavi it's a no-brainer. There's no reason Lavi should take the fall for Holmgren's complete and utter failure to put in place what he was told to go out and get. It was his job to get certain players, and before the off-season started, everyone was on the same page. Snider knew which players he wanted Homer to get, Homer knew which players he was supposed to get, Lavi knew which players he needed for his style to be successful. They all did. Then they just didn't materialize. Why not?

I don't hate him at all. He had just one miserable horrible year. I'd like to see both keep their jobs. But in a fair world Homer would be given the boot before Lavi.
What was he told to go out and get? A number one D?

There are barely a handful of those that were even on the market.

He tried to go get Weber and Nash matched. That's not Homer's fault.

Outside of Weber, who else was he suppose to go get that would improve the team and at the same time preserve the young core we have developed?

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01-30-2013, 03:50 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
What was he told to go out and get? A number one D?

There are barely a handful of those that were even on the market.

He tried to go get Weber and Nash matched. That's not Homer's fault.

Outside of Weber, who else was he suppose to go get that would improve the team and at the same time preserve the young core we have developed?
Suter.

Carle.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert at the ins and outs of signing players and negotiating with agents, no one here is. And I would hope no one tries to defend him with claims like "his hands were completely tied" as if they did know that for sure. Bottom line is he didn't do what he needed to do, and that's not remotely in dispute.

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01-30-2013, 03:52 PM
  #129
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Wait until the end of this shortened season and if the team doesn't make the play-offs or has a one round run, then fire his ass out the door. Never liked him; short shelf life coach (3 years max).

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01-30-2013, 03:52 PM
  #130
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Carle's not worth the cap hit he was given, and it seems like Suter and Parise had decided to go somewhere together.

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01-30-2013, 03:54 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I don't understand the hate on Homer.

They guy has done everything he could possibly do to make the team better.

Homer

-Has given us a solid young core
This absolutely remains to be seen. So far, our trades have yet to yield any stud player. Couturier has promise but his offense has left a lot to be desired. B. Schenn has looked awful. Voracek looks terrible, and Wayne Simmonds looks good, but he'll never truly be a star player, as he has no hands.

-Went out and paid big bucks in effort to solve the goaltending issue
So? Spending money to try and solve a problem doesn't make you a good GM. In fact, often the best GMs are the one who can find a cheap yet efficient solution to a team's problems. A better GM might've allowed Bobrovsky to mature in the AHL, rather than forcing the issue immediately and then necessitating that we trade him when we acquired Bryz. As the season moves forward, take notice of Bob's play in Columbus. Thus far it's been outstanding and he's paid next to nothing on the cap.

-Went out and tried to bring home Weber
I'm seeing a theme here about what Holmgren "tried" to do. Does the fact that Holmgren tried to get Weber help the team this year? Do we have a #1 defenseman on the ice right now? No? Then he gets no credit for what he "tried" to do. This is a results oriented business. The team doesn't get credit each and every year because they "tried" to win the Stanley Cup.

-Isn't afraid to ruffle feathers and piss people off to get what he wants
Eventually, that ruffling of feathers can come back to bite us, with teams offersheeting us to drive up the price and/or refusing to make deals with us, or making us pay a higher price for deals. We'll never know what truly goes on behind the scenes, but if you think ruffling the feathers of other teams/GMs comes without consequences, you're dead wrong. And oh btw, what has Homer's "ruffling" gotten us thus far? What do we have to show for it?
^^^^


Last edited by FlyingHigh28*: 01-30-2013 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Fixing Quotes
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01-30-2013, 03:55 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
I like him too but if it's between him and Lavi it's a no-brainer. There's no reason Lavi should take the fall for Holmgren's complete and utter failure to put in place what he was told to go out and get. It was his job to get certain players, and before the off-season started, everyone was on the same page. Snider knew which players he wanted Homer to get, Homer knew which players he was supposed to get, Lavi knew which players he needed for his style to be successful. They all did. Then they just didn't materialize. Why not?

I don't hate him at all. He had just one miserable horrible year. I'd like to see both keep their jobs. But in a fair world Homer would be given the boot before Lavi.

I absolutely refuse to subscribe to the notion that Homer added/ subtracted pieces in isolation. If lavi has not participated in the decision making the he needs to resign either lack of respect to him or for incompetence in personnel acquisition.

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01-30-2013, 03:58 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carle's not worth the cap hit he was given
Irrelevant. He was out of the picture early on. Who's to say he couldn't have signed him for much cheaper? It's not like he was hard to get a hold of over the past year...
Quote:
and it seems like Suter and Parise had decided to go somewhere together.
I assume 99% of the job is persuading people from doing anything other than the thing you want them to do.

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01-30-2013, 04:01 PM
  #134
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To touch on Flyinghigh's points about ruffling feathers, we don't know if players see Philly as a less desirable place to play since we keep signing people and trading them away. It's not impossible.

As for all the offersheeting, I doubt anybody outside of Nashville and maybe Vancouver is pissed about that. If Nashville is pissed at the Flyers though, that kind of sucks since they've been pretty good partners in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
Irrelevant. He was out of the picture early on. Who's to say he couldn't have signed him for much cheaper? It's not like he was hard to get a hold of over the past year.
I assume 99% of the job is persuading people from doing anything other than the thing you want them to do.
Players also have agents, who advise them to get the most money they can. If Carle was completely out of the picture, I imagine it's because his demands put him out of the picture. Either way, let's say we get him signed for 4 or 4.5 million dollars...now what? We still have a defense composed of complimentary guys and an aging Timonen without a real #1. We're probably better at getting the puck out of our zone, but I doubt our scoring is any better overall since Carle was a detriment overall in the offensive zone since he was easy to defend. I don't see how it makes much difference. At least we have Schenn, who has upside. That's something I guess.

Edit: speaking of Schenn's upside, his cap hit is 3.6 million dollars for the next few years. If he keeps doing what he's doing and builds on it he's going to have great value to us. We don't have many defenseman who could be considered a bargain.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-30-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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Old
01-30-2013, 04:03 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
Suter.

Carle.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert at the ins and outs of signing players and negotiating with agents, no one here is. And I would hope no one tries to defend him with claims like "his hands were completely tied" as if they did know that for sure. Bottom line is he didn't do what he needed to do, and that's not remotely in dispute.
Carle isn't worth the contract Tampa gave him and def isn't a number one D.

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01-30-2013, 04:11 PM
  #136
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The hate on Homer is unfounded. I am actually starting to really dislike some of you and see why Philadelphia fans get such a reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post

-Has given us a solid young core
This absolutely remains to be seen. So far, our trades have yet to yield any stud player. Couturier has promise but his offense has left a lot to be desired. B. Schenn has looked awful. Voracek looks terrible, and Wayne Simmonds looks good, but he'll never truly be a star player, as he has no hands.
This is Cooter's second year. He's fine. A lot left to be desired? SECOND YEAR. Both Schenns look fine. They are just young. The team is slumping and people are already to throw in the towel on some of the best prospects in the league. The core is solid. G/Cooter/Schenn/Laughton up the middle is insanely nice. Voracek is slumping. It's been 9 games. Briere disappears for months and no one would REALLY say that Briere is not a very good player. He has his weaknesses, but when he's on, he dominates all over your silly face. Wayne Simmonds is still young. Why does he have to be a star? He's a young "power" foward. Sometimes those guys take time. Good god.


Quote:
-Went out and paid big bucks in effort to solve the goaltending issue
So? Spending money to try and solve a problem doesn't make you a good GM. In fact, often the best GMs are the one who can find a cheap yet efficient solution to a team's problems. A better GM might've allowed Bobrovsky to mature in the AHL, rather than forcing the issue immediately and then necessitating that we trade him when we acquired Bryz. As the season moves forward, take notice of Bob's play in Columbus. Thus far it's been outstanding and he's paid next to nothing on the cap.
Homer did what he was told to do. Read between the lines. And Bob had no place here. He also drafted two decent prospects with those picks, which is another things good GMs do.

Quote:
-Went out and tried to bring home Weber
I'm seeing a theme here about what Holmgren "tried" to do. Does the fact that Holmgren tried to get Weber help the team this year? Do we have a #1 defenseman on the ice right now? No? Then he gets no credit for what he "tried" to do. This is a results oriented business. The team doesn't get credit each and every year because they "tried" to win the Stanley Cup. -Isn't afraid to ruffle feathers and piss people off to get what he wants
Actually, GMs certainly get credit for what they tried to do. Do you follow hockey? They get credit for this, all the time. Homer took a very public risk to make the team better and we loved him for it. Credit gained. It didn't work out, but I love the attempt. He gets credit precisely because he stands in contradistinction from the other GMs that did not offer sheet Weber. Hockey is a results oriented business, but it is also a perception business. You can't pretend that doesn't exist as well, so don't.

Quote:
Eventually, that ruffling of feathers can come back to bite us, with teams offersheeting us to drive up the price and/or refusing to make deals with us, or making us pay a higher price for deals. We'll never know what truly goes on behind the scenes, but if you think ruffling the feathers of other teams/GMs comes without consequences, you're dead wrong. And oh btw, what has Homer's "ruffling" gotten us thus far? What do we have to show for it?
Everyone has been saying this, but has it happened? No. In fact, the usuals around here often mock this alleged revenge that is never coming. You want to act like the GMs are going to wage some sort of war against Homer. You do realize most these guys are friendly, golf together, attend conferences together, etc. What has it got us? It got the team | | this close to landing Weber for no assets.

Step back off the cliff. The Flyers organization is widely regarded as one of the best, and one of the best not to have won a championship yet that probably deserved one, but got bitten at the last moment by a superior team.

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01-30-2013, 04:12 PM
  #137
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I never said he was a #1, but I do think we'd be better off if we had him. Why do people keep using the phrase "Lavi's system doesn't fit the personnel"? Isn't the loss of a mobile defenseman (and the acquisition of an immobile one) the bulk of the reason behind people saying that?

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01-30-2013, 04:12 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
-Has given us a solid young core
This absolutely remains to be seen. So far, our trades have yet to yield any stud player. Couturier has promise but his offense has left a lot to be desired. B. Schenn has looked awful. Voracek looks terrible, and Wayne Simmonds looks good, but he'll never truly be a star player, as he has no hands.
Think you're being a little hard with this analysis.

I prefer to look at what these guys did in the NHL playoffs, which is hockey at its highest level. They all looked like they belong, and they all look like they are going to be really good players. I'm not going to make rash judgements based off of a small sample of games played with a long layoff and short training camp.

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01-30-2013, 04:13 PM
  #139
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Carle isn't worth the contract Tampa gave him and def isn't a number one D.
It was long rumored that he would've accepted a big home town discount to stay In Philly, but he eventually got tired of waiting to hear back about the Suter sweepstakes and found out that other teams were willing to break the bank for him.

Btw, Our complete inability to break into the offensive zone with any consistency this season should really be proving to you all just how valuable your scapegoat had been for the past few seasons.

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01-30-2013, 04:16 PM
  #140
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[QUOTE=FlyingHigh28;58691865]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
I don't understand the hate on Homer.

They guy has done everything he could possibly do to make the team better.

Homer

-Has given us a solid young core
This absolutely remains to be seen. So far, our trades have yet to yield any stud player. Couturier has promise but his offense has left a lot to be desired. B. Schenn has looked awful. Voracek looks terrible, and Wayne Simmonds looks good, but he'll never truly be a star player, as he has no hands.

-Went out and paid big bucks in effort to solve the goaltending issue
So? Spending money to try and solve a problem doesn't make you a good GM. In fact, often the best GMs are the one who can find a cheap yet efficient solution to a team's problems. A better GM might've allowed Bobrovsky to mature in the AHL, rather than forcing the issue immediately and then necessitating that we trade him when we acquired Bryz. As the season moves forward, take notice of Bob's play in Columbus. Thus far it's been outstanding and he's paid next to nothing on the cap.

-Went out and tried to bring home Weber
I'm seeing a theme here about what Holmgren "tried" to do. Does the fact that Holmgren tried to get Weber help the team this year? Do we have a #1 defenseman on the ice right now? No? Then he gets no credit for what he "tried" to do. This is a results oriented business. The team doesn't get credit each and every year because they "tried" to win the Stanley Cup.

-Isn't afraid to ruffle feathers and piss people off to get what he wants
Eventually, that ruffling of feathers can come back to bite us, with teams offersheeting us to drive up the price and/or refusing to make deals with us, or making us pay a higher price for deals. We'll never know what truly goes on behind the scenes, but if you think ruffling the feathers of other teams/GMs comes without consequences, you're dead wrong. And oh btw, what has Homer's "ruffling" gotten us thus far? What do we have to show for it?

The Mayans also predicted the end of the world in December. Oh ****, things are looking terrible.


Oh doom and gloom, blah blah blah.

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01-30-2013, 04:18 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
It was long rumored that he would've accepted a big home town discount to stay In Philly, but he eventually got tired of waiting to hear back about the Suter sweepstakes and found out that other teams were willing to break the bank for him.

Btw, Our complete inability to break into the offensive zone with any consistency this season should really be proving to you all just how valuable your scapegoat had been for the past few seasons.

Yeah, I still don't care. **** Matt Carle. I wouldn't take him back either. Yeah he moved the puck, but it looks like nobody here remembered all the insane giveaways he was responsible over his career here.

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01-30-2013, 04:21 PM
  #142
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Yeah, I still don't care. **** Matt Carle. I wouldn't take him back either. Yeah he moved the puck, but it looks like nobody here remembered all the insane giveaways he was responsible over his career here.
Or how, like Voracek right now, he was easily defended and a detriment on offense because his shot was a non-factor. Relying hard on Carle wouldn't be ideal.

I worry about what happens when Timonen retires and Schenn gets moved into a bigger role he likely isn't ready for.

Edit: One thing is for sure...we knew this team had some major flaws even before this slow start has magnified them into something larger than they likely are. They still need correction, but it won't be an easy job. It's going to be a major test for Holmgren.

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01-30-2013, 04:23 PM
  #143
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i dont see laviolette being fired but he could cost holmgren his job.

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01-30-2013, 04:28 PM
  #144
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I would take Voracek off the point on the PP. It makes no sense to me to have him there. He can't handle a pass. His shot isn't bad but majority of the time it doesn't hit the net. He's been the most disappointing player so far for me.

I would give Luke Schenn a try on the PP. It can't hurt at this point. The guys got a pretty good shot and it gets to the net at least.

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01-30-2013, 04:28 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I worry about what happens when Timonen retires and Schenn gets moved into a bigger role he likely isn't ready for.
Yeah. I certainly wouldn't blame a GM for a retirement. Obviously it would have been nice this year to have gotten that fantasy #1 and have Kimmo cruise to the end of his career. And that we didn't isn't the worst thing in the world per se. But there's got to be some kind of contingency, for this season at least.

When Kimmo's gone is when it becomes a must.

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01-30-2013, 04:33 PM
  #146
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Yeah. I certainly wouldn't blame a GM for a retirement. Obviously it would have been nice this year to have gotten that fantasy #1 and have Kimmo cruise to the end of his career. And that we didn't isn't the worst thing in the world per se. But there's got to be some kind of contingency, for this season at least.

When Kimmo's gone is when it becomes a must.
I also can't blame him for not finding a replacement without overpaying with spare assets we just don't have, or for trying at Weber and failing.

I'll probably blame him for having such an incredibly thin prospect pool for Dmen, though. It looks like we're building something now, but it's a bit late. Considering the age of Pronger and Timonen, and that Coburn and Carle weren't looking like viable replacements the last few years, I don't know what the excuse is.

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01-30-2013, 04:38 PM
  #147
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With regards to Homer, let's also remember that he took a big gamble on Chris Pronger -- he is a gambler -- and he lost. I know we got to the Cup in 2010 and that was great, but we were still 2 pieces away (competent goalie, competent #5 dman). It didn't seal the deal. We essentially traded 3 1sts and Lupul for an extended rental. Yes, I know that Pronger's injury was a freak injury, but it still happened.

Holmgren built a team around Pronger and we got to see that for one full year and parts of others. Anyone who says they wouldn't undo that deal -- with everything else staying the same -- is crazy.

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01-30-2013, 05:13 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post


The Mayans also predicted the end of the world in December. Oh ****, things are looking terrible.


Oh doom and gloom, blah blah blah.
I think you people mistake my responses as "doom and gloom". They weren't meant that way at all, I think we have a decent core and will be able to compete, just as we had a solid core before Holmgren made all these shakeups. I was simply saying Homer is far from the best GM. You can have a <crappy GM and still be in contention every year. Homer started with a very good core. That core was a goalie away from winning in 2010. Now we have a ton of promise but those promising players are also question marks. Sean Couturier's offense game could never come around. Brayden Schenn could be another JVR or even worse a total bust. Jakub Voracek could end up being nothing more than the player he was in Columbus, a 45-50 point winger who cannot shoot. These are all distinct possibilities that nobody wants to acknowledge. I don't believe that all of these are true and I certainly don't want any of them to be true. I think Couturier will be a star and I think Schenn won't bust, but anyone who wants to act like we 100% have a great core of players is kidding themselves. We won't know for another year at minimum.


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01-30-2013, 05:16 PM
  #149
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I remember when we were a goalie away from a Cup, and in the following offseason Holmgren did everything BUT get a goalie. Oh, and he signed Shelley for no reason. That was a neat time.

Holmgren has his strong points, but he does a lot of questionable things.

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01-30-2013, 05:25 PM
  #150
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Hard to blame the coach for what has happened so far, this is essentially preseason hockey and the personnel ain't there. I mean when Kimmo Timonen is your number one defenseman, you're understaffed, for sure. So it's hard to blame Lavi. However, the plain and simple fact is that he makes teams worse. That's what he does.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3012

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