HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Ray Shero

View Poll Results: Do you believe in Shero?
I believe in Shero. He´s immortal after he brough us Neal 75 43.60%
Mixed feelings, gonna give him some time 75 43.60%
No longer believing in him. He had an awful off-season 22 12.79%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-30-2013, 08:17 PM
  #101
themethod7
Registered User
 
themethod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lexington KY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Sure, focus on 2010 to current and play the "there hasnt been enough time yet" card and then ignore the 2007, 2008, and 2009 drafts that have produced notta.
Outside of Staal (gift wrapped) and Bennett, he's not drafted a single forward in the first 3 rounds of any draft from 2006-present that could crack our lineup today. His forward picks over that time are Esposito, Veilleux, CPZ, Ben Hanowski, and Bryan Rust. Looking at that list, it's no wonder he has an aversion to drafting forwards.

2007 was really the only year he whiffed though - drafted Esposito in the 1st round ahead of Pacioretty and Perron, and Veilleux in the second ahead of Wayne Simmonds. We didn't have a single pick in the first 3 rounds of a 2008 draft that was incredibly shallow at forward. 2009 he drafted Despres with the last pick of the 1st round; the only forwards taken shortly after him that would even have a chance of getting into our lineup are Ryan O'Reilly (who's in the middle of a contract dispute in Colorado), Kyle Clifford, and Jakob Silfverberg, none of whom would be the huge upgrade we're looking for at wing.

2012 was also arguably a miss, since we're already deep at defenseman and could have had Forsberg or Grigorenko instead of Pouliot, but I'll give that one a few more years.

themethod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:23 PM
  #102
BROOKLYnKNIGHTS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,408
vCash: 500
I didnt vote nor am I a fan or hater of the Penquins. To add my opinion I would say hes done a decent job with what he has had to work with in recent years. After last night disaster its obvious this team has way too many holes which will be tough to fill unless major changes are made. The team has its core players and they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Neal was a major steal

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:25 PM
  #103
Fire Shero*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,440
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Both Martin and Orpik have played fairly decently this year. And significantly better than last year.
That says a lot considering how awful Martin played last year. Paul Martin is no longer horrible, he is just bad.

Great!

Fire Shero* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:27 PM
  #104
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus View Post
Does anyone in here honestly believe that Dan Bylsma can lead this team to another Cup win, or even Final? I have no faith in him.

This is the Ray Shero thread. I am aware. Thus, I must ask, who would Shero target as a replacement if Bylsma was shown the door?
The safe guess is that he'd promote John Hynes from WBS.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:36 PM
  #105
themethod7
Registered User
 
themethod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lexington KY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
That says a lot considering how awful Martin played last year. Paul Martin is no longer horrible, he is just bad.

Great!
Through 6 games (huge sample size) you could easily argue that he's been our best defenseman.

themethod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:38 PM
  #106
BlindWillyMcHurt
Registered User
 
BlindWillyMcHurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
The safe guess is that he'd promote John Hynes from WBS.
You're probably right.

I think I'd rather stay the course... assuming that's the only other realistic option.

BlindWillyMcHurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:40 PM
  #107
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
You're probably right.

I think I'd rather stay the course... assuming that's the only other realistic option.
It's not the only other realistic option. I was just saying what's likely. A realistic option would be in Brandon Sutter's cell phone memory card. A realistic option would be sitting in Phoenix. ****, a realistic option would be down the hall from Shero's office.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:44 PM
  #108
AEKaki
Registered User
 
AEKaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Greektown, MONTREAL
Country: Greece
Posts: 4,049
vCash: 500
You guys are funny!!

Shero is not to blame! He has made this team VERY solid. Coaching is the issue.
I wouldn't trust any other GM at this point.

I would also question scouting. I wasn't happy with the recent drafts...

AEKaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:44 PM
  #109
BlindWillyMcHurt
Registered User
 
BlindWillyMcHurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,811
vCash: 500
My mistake. By realistic I mean "what the team is almost certain to do based on past events."

And I'm guessing you're referring to Fitz with your last statement. An extremely underrated asset when talking about reasons the Penguins took home the Cup in 09. It's a shame he doesn't seem to have any interest in coaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEKaki View Post
You guys are funny!!

Shero is not to blame! He has made this team VERY solid. Coaching is the issue.
I wouldn't trust any other GM at this point.

I would also question scouting. I wasn't happy with the recent drafts...
If you take issue with coaching and drafting... then logically you have to at least take some issue with Ray Shero. Even he'll tell you himself that the team's overall "health" begins and ends with him. Sometimes that's not entirely fair... but oh well.

BlindWillyMcHurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:47 PM
  #110
Jag68Sid87
Nothing Else Maattas
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 29,071
vCash: 500
Yeah, if you have a problem with the team's drafting, then you have a problem with Shero. You can't separate the two.

Jag68Sid87 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 08:55 PM
  #111
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
My mistake. By realistic I mean "what the team is almost certain to do based on past events."

And I'm guessing you're referring to Fitz with your last statement. An extremely underrated asset when talking about reasons the Penguins took home the Cup in 09. It's a shame he doesn't seem to have any interest in coaching.



If you take issue with coaching and drafting... then logically you have to at least take some issue with Ray Shero. Even he'll tell you himself that the team's overall "health" begins and ends with him. Sometimes that's not entirely fair... but oh well.
Yes, I meant Fitz. If I'd meant EJ, I would have said 'in a crypt down the hall'.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 09:01 PM
  #112
edog37
Registered User
 
edog37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Washington DC
Country: United States
Posts: 2,953
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
You are right, some including myself might be harsh. The thing about other GMs though is that many of them don't have what Shero started with as a foundation. Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Whitney, Gonchar, and a 2nd overall pick? Goligoski coming up? Letang?

He was smart that first year to just take it kind of slow and fill in the roster with capable players instead of jumping the gun like someone like Burke would've done. I'll always give him credit for that. There's two sides to this story though. After the Cup it leaves a little to be desired. Contracts like Cooke and Kunitz were brilliant moves. If the Cup is the focal point however things have been moving a little too slowly the last few years.
I still like Craig Patrick, but people forget he too was handed a solid foundation. Lemieux, Coffey, Barrasso, Stevens. Point is, Shero is a great GM & we are fortunate to have him. CP was a great GM & we were lucky to have him as well.

edog37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 09:15 PM
  #113
FDBluth
Registered User
 
FDBluth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 9,885
vCash: 500
His trades have been good, his signings have been pretty bad and his drafting has been pretty bad. He hasn't been terrible, but I don't think he's been "good", either. He inherited an incredibly talented team and hasn't really built it that much. The Neal trade was by far the best thing he's done. His biggest mistake was drafting Staal.

However, if you told me that after his rookie year, Sid still wouldn't be playing with any legitimate first line wingers after eight seasons, I wouldn't have believed you, but here we are.

This year will be big, as he's just cleared Staal, signed Sid long-term, and has Malkin to deal with this summer. If Shero can't make the team better and the Penguins crash again, there could be a lot of changes.

FDBluth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 09:24 PM
  #114
Fire Shero*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,440
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEKaki View Post
You guys are funny!!

Shero is not to blame! He has made this team VERY solid. Coaching is the issue.
I wouldn't trust any other GM at this point.

I would also question scouting. I wasn't happy with the recent drafts...
I'm not sure if you are being serious. But who is responsible for scouting? Shero. Who hires scouts? Shero. Whonl hired Dan Bylsma and continues to sit back and watch him coach this team to mediocrity? Shero!

Fire Shero* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 09:30 PM
  #115
Ugene Malkin
Bück Dich Baby!
 
Ugene Malkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: Germany
Posts: 21,806
vCash: 500
Yep, when there's 3 of the top 5 forwards still on the board when most of the picks taken in the top ten are D-man it's a pretty safe bet everyone was looking for D-help and why Shero was still looking at D-man help is beside me.


Shero the D-man hoarder.

*pic coming soon*

Ugene Malkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 09:36 PM
  #116
Jaded-Fan
Registered User
 
Jaded-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 33,200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Yep, when there's 3 of the top 5 forwards still on the board when most of the picks taken in the top ten are D-man it's a pretty safe bet everyone was looking for D-help and why Shero was still looking at D-man help is beside me.


Shero the D-man hoarder.

*pic coming soon*
When you have 100 point seasons year after year the picks even in the first round are going to be players which have questions, so I do not fault him overly much if they do not pan out. And he actually has done well with a number of those low firsts. But when you have the 8th overall and go against the consensus when a couple of forwards are sitting right there, you better be right. Time will tell.

Jaded-Fan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:00 PM
  #117
froods
Millerrrrrrr!!!
 
froods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by themethod7 View Post
Outside of Staal (gift wrapped) and Bennett, he's not drafted a single forward in the first 3 rounds of any draft from 2006-present that could crack our lineup today. His forward picks over that time are Esposito, Veilleux, CPZ, Ben Hanowski, and Bryan Rust. Looking at that list, it's no wonder he has an aversion to drafting forwards.

2007 was really the only year he whiffed though - drafted Esposito in the 1st round ahead of Pacioretty and Perron, and Veilleux in the second ahead of Wayne Simmonds. We didn't have a single pick in the first 3 rounds of a 2008 draft that was incredibly shallow at forward. 2009 he drafted Despres with the last pick of the 1st round; the only forwards taken shortly after him that would even have a chance of getting into our lineup are Ryan O'Reilly (who's in the middle of a contract dispute in Colorado), Kyle Clifford, and Jakob Silfverberg, none of whom would be the huge upgrade we're looking for at wing.

2012 was also arguably a miss, since we're already deep at defenseman and could have had Forsberg or Grigorenko instead of Pouliot, but I'll give that one a few more years.
rank------------------------------games g A Pts Pims
4 Derrick Pouliot Portland Winterhawks 39 8 30 38 54

froods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:09 PM
  #118
ColePens
Global Moderator
Your Savior
 
ColePens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 34,556
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ColePens
To everyone who wants to fire Shero... tell me who replaces him and tell me some GMs around the league that are way better. I want you to name 15 of course seeing that you think Ray Shero is worthy of being fired.

ColePens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:25 PM
  #119
The Tang
I like gooooollllddd
 
The Tang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Pittsburgh. PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,243
vCash: 500
Just my thoughts:

-I've never been big on the "he walked into the situation" argument. Yes, he walked into some pretty good assets, but you can say that about most situations, where a GM comes to a team with with high picks or good young players. I mean, Holmgren is considered a good GM and he walked into Giroux, Carter and Richards. There are plenty of cases where a GM walked into numerous assets and proceeded to do nothing; Shero got us a cup.

-Drafting has been a weakness for years with this team, from CP and into the Shero era. Maybe we have GMs that are just bad at drafting, or picking scouts or maybe something is just in the water...

-I don't blame Shero for not getting anything in last years market; after Parise and Suter the talent level dropped precipitously. Yeah, he probably should have re-signed Sullivan, but the Parise sweepstakes was still going on at that time and would have created cap trouble.

-We all praised Shero for choosing to bring up Bylsma now bash him for not getting rid of him. Coaches are always a volatile thing and lose their luster after time. For all we know, Bylsma could be fired after next time (although I doubt it). More telling will be who he replaces Bylsma with.

-I wasn't too happy with the Pouliot pick but they probably saw something we didn't. As with any pick, time will tell. Maatta I understood more since he was supposed to go in the top dozen and dropped all the way to our second pick of the round. I won't argue we're extremely top heavy on D prospects (if anyone could even argue that.)

-Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shero still have all of CP's scouts for his first draft? I'm not sure how much you can hold against him for that draft year.

-I hate to say it, but maybe it's time to take a more bold approach like the Flyers in not being afraid to deal high picks in favor of players. Especially given how much our draft picks seem to bust.

-So many people seem down on him, but I am curious for those that are, what are all the GMs in the league that you consider better?

The Tang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:36 PM
  #120
Malkinstheman
Registered User
 
Malkinstheman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 976
vCash: 500
People seem to have really been spoiled by lottery picks. Sure shero has drafted mainly defencemen in the early rounds but the later ones are bad. Starting from next season we should see an influx of talent. People take drafts like 2009 and say how we hardly got anything but thats not true. Next year we should see hankowski, kuhnackl, uher then after wards agostino, rust and others. The only reason they are so late is because shero tends to go the safer route with projects and develop them himself, so lets just see how they turn out first before knocking on shero's drafting. Plus its not like he's scared to take forwards, he's good at identifying defencemens potential better so he see's bpa in them, had shero been able to take tarasenko, and if he was prodcuing at a point per game for us as he is for st.louis everybody would say hes the ultimate drafting god.

Malkinstheman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:50 PM
  #121
Tender Rip
Learning from Scuds?
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
To everyone who wants to fire Shero... tell me who replaces him and tell me some GMs around the league that are way better. I want you to name 15 of course seeing that you think Ray Shero is worthy of being fired.
That is difficult Cole. Both because I still rather like Shero in general and surely wouldn't want him fired now, but also because.... What are you going to evaluate them on? How are you going to say if one GM is better than the other without evaluating the likelihood that they could be successful, which assets were available when they arrived, financial constraints, drafting&development record, trades and of course team performance? There's a lot of things going into this.

I would say I am no longer as impressed and confident in Shero as I was. That is because every year since our cup win I have been disappointed with our free agency moves. Not the fact that we didn't get stars, but IMO we have been getting the wrong players for the needs we have/had.
Same thing in most deadline acquisitions and whereas I think that he and his team are drafting good players, I am certainly one of those who thinks they have gone way over board with drafting D-men, to the point that it is now terrible asset management unless he manages to flip several of these D-men for equal forward prospects - or NHL assets of any kind - that we can integrate. Otherwise Brian Strait will only be the first one with a serious career ahead of him that we end up giving away.

Shero no longer deserves a free pass. I think that is obvious. It is his job to address the teams weaknesses and properly assess which coaches and players can do that. When we are getting progressively weaker for three years and change despite having perhaps the strongest foundation for success in the league, then any General Manager will come under the microscope.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:03 PM
  #122
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 18,686
vCash: 500
Personnel isn't going to a big deal to solve IMO.

I wouldn't mind adding a gritty top 9 forward, preferably young and a burner who can replace Cooke/Kunitz in the near future.

Not a terrible idea to try and swap one of Martin/Niskanen with a top 4 crease clearer. But like with Michalek, I hesitate to bring someone in who's not proven in our system. Would rather give Despres and Bortuzzo legit chances to move up the depth chart.

I may be one of the few, but I'd like to see Gonchar back if he's available at the deadline. Especially if Morrow isn't getting a look this season. The PP may get by in the regular season, but I can see it failing horribly in the postseason without a legit guy on the point. Put him in a third pairing role and give him prime PP minutes.

As for the glaring hole on Sid's RW, find a way to get Chris Stewart out of St. Louis. He solves quite a few problems here for a long time. Sign him to a Neal deal in the summer and we're set.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:04 PM
  #123
ColePens
Global Moderator
Your Savior
 
ColePens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 34,556
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ColePens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
That is difficult Cole. Both because I still rather like Shero in general and surely wouldn't want him fired now, but also because.... What are you going to evaluate them on? How are you going to say if one GM is better than the other without evaluating the likelihood that they could be successful, which assets were available when they arrived, financial constraints, drafting&development record, trades and of course team performance? There's a lot of things going into this.

I would say I am no longer as impressed and confident in Shero as I was. That is because every year since our cup win I have been disappointed with our free agency moves. Not the fact that we didn't get stars, but IMO we have been getting the wrong players for the needs we have/had.
Same thing in most deadline acquisitions and whereas I think that he and his team are drafting good players, I am certainly one of those who thinks they have gone way over board with drafting D-men, to the point that it is now terrible asset management unless he manages to flip several of these D-men for equal forward prospects - or NHL assets of any kind - that we can integrate. Otherwise Brian Strait will only be the first one with a serious career ahead of him that we end up giving away.

Shero no longer deserves a free pass. I think that is obvious. It is his job to address the teams weaknesses and properly assess which coaches and players can do that. When we are getting progressively weaker for three years and change despite having perhaps the strongest foundation for success in the league, then any General Manager will come under the microscope.
Now THIS is a great assessment w/ a level head. Great post, TR. As per the usual. I can get behind your post and leave it up for debate based on this.

ColePens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:10 PM
  #124
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,623
vCash: 500
Cole I'm still with your "cherry picking analysis" and listing of solid evidence, point by point, why he's a good GM. No one is saying he's above criticism, just that people calling him out for not signing overpriced FA scraps like Semin or Doan (after his big push to get Parise / Suter -- or Hossa a few years ago), or not drafting your pet favorite on the draft board... is patently insane.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 11:15 PM
  #125
ColePens
Global Moderator
Your Savior
 
ColePens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 34,556
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ColePens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Cole I'm still with your "cherry picking analysis" and listing of solid evidence, point by point, why he's a good GM. No one is saying he's above criticism, just that people calling him out for not signing overpriced FA scraps like Semin or Doan (after his big push to get Parise / Suter -- or Hossa a few years ago), or not drafting your pet favorite on the draft board... is patently insane.
Hey brother.. I'm on your side. Because IF he DID sign a Hossa, Parise, or Hamhuis, we'd be saying he's one of the best GMs ever. It just didn't go that way. Detroit has had the same unfortunate luck. They went after Jagr, Suter, Parise, and some of the big time d-men and fell flat. It's amazing how players choose to go elsewhere than Pittsburgh or Detroit after how great they were.

And for how people ***** about the draft, Morrow and Despres look like LEGIT big time defenders in the NHL. Despres is already on his way from everything I see. Morrow, again, looks NHL ready.

So we don't take Forsburg? I'm not a prospect guy, but I wasn't 100% sold watching the WJC. I know that's not the best place to check a player out for 3-4 games. Let's see the ceiling for DP.

ColePens is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.