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Ray Shero

View Poll Results: Do you believe in Shero?
I believe in Shero. He´s immortal after he brough us Neal 75 43.60%
Mixed feelings, gonna give him some time 75 43.60%
No longer believing in him. He had an awful off-season 22 12.79%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:20 PM
  #126
Ziggyjoe21
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It's hard to evaluate a GM. But I wouldn't fire him. He hasn't done/not done anything to warrant being on the hot seat.

big deadline acquisitions? check (Hossa, Guerin)
trading strengths for weakness? check (neal, kunitz)
Goes after big time free agents? check (Martin, Parise)

He doesn't overpay for deadline acquisitions (1st for Gaustad? really?), doesn't overpay for FA's (Leino, Gomez). Pens are in a very solid salary cap situation despite having the best core of talent in the league.

IMO his biggest knock is his draft rate. Besides Staal, how many Shero era prospects made the team? Jeffrey and Despres. That's 2 in 6 years. Not impressive.

I also don't think the recent playoff collapses are Shero's fault. 2010, Fleury sucks and Halak and Cammellerri dominate. 2011, Pens are missing Sid and Geno. 2012, Fleury and defense collapse.

IMO, all the pieces are in place. I don't see anything negative within the organization that can be faulted on RS. I would let the entire coaching staff go before Shero.

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01-30-2013, 10:25 PM
  #127
Darth Vitale
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
IMO, all the pieces are in place. I don't see anything negative within the organization that can be faulted on RS. I would let the entire coaching staff go before Shero.

There is one glaring huge flaw for which he cannot be forgiven: he hasn't stolen Corey Perry from the Ducks for Tangradi and 4 2nd round draft picks.
Perry is so good he could coach the team in addition to playing on the 1st line. Problem solved!

I was serious about the 4 draft picks though. We should do that. Totally.

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01-30-2013, 10:58 PM
  #128
Ugene Malkin
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On NHL Tonight: Most disappointing team = Pittsburgh Penguins

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01-30-2013, 11:00 PM
  #129
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On NHL Tonight: Most disappointing team = Pittsburgh Penguins
Shocking. Wasn't it one of their commentators who picked us to go to the finals?

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01-30-2013, 11:06 PM
  #130
Ugene Malkin
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Shocking. Wasn't it one of their commentators who picked us to go to the finals?
I believe so.


As promised.


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01-30-2013, 11:52 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
To everyone who wants to fire Shero... tell me who replaces him and tell me some GMs around the league that are way better. I want you to name 15 of course seeing that you think Ray Shero is worthy of being fired.
This is a difficult thing to do, simply because GMs aren't in identical situations in order to compare the job they've done on an equal footing.

For example, is it possible to compare Shero to Burke without first acknowledging the situations they came into first, and the impact of that on how difficult it was for them to build a winner? Shero's team has certainly been more successful over his tenure than Burke's has, but Burke also didn't start off with a roster that included Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and assets in the pipeline like Letang and Goligoski.

That kind of comes back to my issue with Shero. Perhaps "issue" is the wrong word ... but anyway, the fact that he's got two tremendous talents and hasn't surrounded them with the talent and supporting cast to make absolute most of their abilities. Our winger situation has been a hole in the line up, arguably, since Hossa and Malone left.

I don't know if there are 15 better GMs out there. I won't know until they have the competitive advantage Shero has of inheriting Crosby and Malkin, and seeing what kind of job they could do with Crosby and Malkin to build around. All I do know is that since 2008, our superstar centers have had the likes of Dupuis, Kunitz, ancient Guerin, Fedotenko, Talbot, etc. riding shotgun with them, and that lack of talent has been a big contributor in the playoff losses the past three playoffs.

I voted for the middle option, because I'm willing to see what he does this off season with the cap space the Staal/Michalek deals opened up. Also because this season was kind of wonky with the lockout/labor issues. But at what point can you no longer defend his lack of ability to plug the glaring holes in the roster? If Sid's approaching 30 years old and he's still got two grinders on his wing?

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01-31-2013, 12:16 AM
  #132
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I still believe in Shero... I don't however believe in Byslma. His track record of great trades is awesome Esposito EC and Army for Dupuis and Hossa was amazing by itself, let alone Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen. He went after Parise and missed out, that's not his fault Parise decided to sign somewhere else. Shero is still the guy for us in my book.

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01-31-2013, 12:25 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Candyman View Post
I still believe in Shero... I don't however believe in Byslma. His track record of great trades is awesome Esposito EC and Army for Dupuis and Hossa was amazing by itself, let alone Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen. He went after Parise and missed out, that's not his fault Parise decided to sign somewhere else. Shero is still the guy for us in my book.
Ray Shero is maybe the best in the league when it comes to the "Big Trade" but it is the smaller housekeeping moves like ridding the club of a waiver wire pickup from 2009 that is now 35 years old in Craig Adams with a younger replacement. These smaller changes keep the club fresh and competitive.

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01-31-2013, 07:21 AM
  #134
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Is the problem that those house keeping moves are not available to us because what we gave away in the draft those two seasons (07-08)? Maybe we are now feeling the pain of having no return in that time period?

In saying that, I love Shero. It was just something I was thinking about.

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01-31-2013, 07:36 AM
  #135
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Just for fun, let's envision an alternate universe where the Neal trade isn't made. Maybe Shero would have picked up a winger in free agency and we have a much better looking power play with Gogo as the QB.

I mean I'd still make the trade 100 times out of 100, especially with Neal reaching the next level like he has, but perhaps you could make a case that it wasn't the pure robbery that a lot of us think it was. After all there is a reason GMs value really good offensive D men more highly than wingers.

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01-31-2013, 08:24 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Ray Shero is maybe the best in the league when it comes to the "Big Trade" but it is the smaller housekeeping moves like ridding the club of a waiver wire pickup from 2009 that is now 35 years old in Craig Adams with a younger replacement. These smaller changes keep the club fresh and competitive.
Adams has been one of our most consistent players since 2009. Last season was rough no doubt, but he's played well this season and provides leadership. I'm not saying he's a saint but his play hasn't warranted being replaced, at least not yet.

Also if you're referring to bottom 6 grinders I think he's done more than enough there either hiring from within the organization, or signing players like Glass or Cooke. The one quirk I would agree with you with is defense. While he did sign Michalek and Martin I still don't feel like he ever really replaced Scuderi and Gill in our lineup which is something we've missed. Granted Michalek just didn't work with our system and Martin's play (excepting this season) has been abysmal.

Still I don't feel like Shero has done a below average job even in "housekeeping". I'd be totally fine calling him average in that category, but nothing to be alarmed about to me.

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01-31-2013, 09:39 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
It's hard to evaluate a GM. But I wouldn't fire him. He hasn't done/not done anything to warrant being on the hot seat.

big deadline acquisitions? check (Hossa, Guerin)
trading strengths for weakness? check (neal, kunitz)
Goes after big time free agents? check (Martin, Parise)

He doesn't overpay for deadline acquisitions (1st for Gaustad? really?), doesn't overpay for FA's (Leino, Gomez). Pens are in a very solid salary cap situation despite having the best core of talent in the league.

IMO his biggest knock is his draft rate. Besides Staal, how many Shero era prospects made the team? Jeffrey and Despres. That's 2 in 6 years. Not impressive.

I also don't think the recent playoff collapses are Shero's fault. 2010, Fleury sucks and Halak and Cammellerri dominate. 2011, Pens are missing Sid and Geno. 2012, Fleury and defense collapse.

IMO, all the pieces are in place. I don't see anything negative within the organization that can be faulted on RS. I would let the entire coaching staff go before Shero.
- Hossa was 2008 and Guerin was 2009. He can't continue to get a free pass for doing nothing positive at the TDl since 2009.

- The Neal and Kunitz trades were amazing, there is no denying that. However, you can't forget trades that didn't work out (Poni, Z) or the fact that Shero still hasn't found Sid a winger via trade (cause he sure as hell isn't doing it through the draft).

- How can "going after big time FAs" be a plus? It doesn't matter if he tries to go after them if he fails to sign them. Especially if he totally snubs every other FA while trying to get the best FA (ZP last summer).

The last things are basically saying that Shero doesn't take risks, which is why he only goes after sure things and signs 3rd line vets. At some point patience turns from a positive to a negative, and IMO we're about there.

Also, with all is vet bottom 6 signings, and DB's boner for those guys, our prospects don't get any time to develop.


Last edited by Ragamuffin Gunner: 01-31-2013 at 10:06 AM.
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01-31-2013, 09:48 AM
  #138
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Yeah, that Luca Caputi, Martin Skola for Ponikarovsky trade sure was a crime against humanity there. I mean, look at what those two are doing now!






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01-31-2013, 09:50 AM
  #139
Le Magnifique 66
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I still believe in Ray

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01-31-2013, 09:51 AM
  #140
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I also love that this whole thread is full of moments where people are like "I'm not taking for granted/discounting/ignoring X, Y, Z" and then they turn around and ignore X, Y, and sometimes Z. It's awesome. Reminds me of my students.

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01-31-2013, 10:27 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
Yeah, that Luca Caputi, Martin Skola for Ponikarovsky trade sure was a crime against humanity there. I mean, look at what those two are doing now!





Well, Shero gives up scraps and gets scraps in return. He wouldn't go after to better TBL players because he refuses to pay the price.

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01-31-2013, 10:33 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Well, Shero gives up scraps and gets scraps in return. He wouldn't go after to better TBL players because he refuses to pay the price.
You said the trade "didn't work out" as if people were expecting Ponikarovski to be "the solution" at wing, and as if we gave up more valuable players to get him (we didn't -- they were less valuable). That trade was a wash at worst and an interim move in any case. Those kinds of "scraps" moves are made by all GMs almost yearly. It's part of hockey and they rarely produce "a big win" for either team involved. Just like signing cheap FA guys to 1 year deals... band-aids. It's tough to evaluate GMs on the basis of how successful their band-aid moves were, but if you feel that's fair go for it I guess.

I do agree with whoever said Shero isn't the best at keeping the bottom 6 stocked with fresh faces / younger wheels every couple years. Adams has long since worn out his welcome. Cooke and Kennedy are getting there, although I believe Cooke can be more valuable for us if he gets a little bit of his edge back / draws a few more penalties.

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01-31-2013, 10:49 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You said the trade "didn't work out" as if people were expecting Ponikarovski to be "the solution" at wing, and as if we gave up more valuable players to get him (we didn't -- they were less valuable). That trade was a wash at worst and an interim move in any case. Those kinds of "scraps" moves are made by all GMs almost yearly. It's part of hockey and they rarely produce "a big win" for either team involved. Just like signing cheap FA guys to 1 year deals... band-aids. It's tough to evaluate GMs on the basis of how successful their band-aid moves were, but if you feel that's fair go for it I guess.

I do agree with whoever said Shero isn't the best at keeping the bottom 6 stocked with fresh faces / younger wheels every couple years. Adams has long since worn out his welcome. Cooke and Kennedy are getting there, although I believe Cooke can be more valuable for us if he gets a little bit of his edge back / draws a few more penalties.
Sill should of replaced Adams last season. I doubt you will find one WBS follower who has a bad thing to say about him.

Vitale-Sill 4th line. Grit and speed out the ass.

Yes, please.

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01-31-2013, 11:34 AM
  #144
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Sill should of replaced Adams last season. I doubt you will find one WBS follower who has a bad thing to say about him.

Vitale-Sill 4th line. Grit and speed out the ass.

Yes, please.
Jiggy, Jiggy, Jiggy . . . the day Craig Adams comes out of the lineup is the day someone pries the lineup card from Bylsma's cold hand.

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01-31-2013, 11:35 AM
  #145
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Jiggy, Jiggy, Jiggy . . . the day Craig Adams comes out of the lineup is the day someone pries the lineup card from Bylsma's cold hand.
Thanks for putting Biggie songs in my head now

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01-31-2013, 11:37 AM
  #146
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The Golden Boychuk has arrived to cure our tweener ills. He will light the 2nd and 3rd lines on fire simultaneously. He is nowhere and everywhere at once. He is Boychuk.

Actually I like this move; goes to our point about keeping the old farts in the "Bottom 7" (2LW + Lines 3 and 4) on their toes.

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01-31-2013, 12:00 PM
  #147
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Quote:
) He´s leaving Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis for years and forever.
2) He traded Michalek for garbage.
3) He promised that he´s gonna use that cap space, but he didn´t make it happen.
4) Failed on Suter/Parise and had no plan B.
5) He let Sullivan go. Sully was very good for us in 2nd half of season and in PO. He wanted to stay, almost for free. But Shero wanted to try Tangradi/garbage there with Malkin. Our PP now has no entry skill and no blueline patience, which Sully provided.
6) He didn´t bring somebody to replace Sullivan.
7) He continues to draft D-men.
8) He´s trolling us with a lot of AHL signings instead of making something important
1) Maybe because Sid clicks with Kunitz and Dupuis. Not every superstar needs a 2nd superstar to elevate their game. Lemieux racked up points with Robbie Brown. Hell, Sid put up a 100 pt season with Andy Hilbert on his line. Even when Sid and Geno are on the same line, how many point per game are they racking up? Kunitz and Dupuis are both 50-60 pt players and more importantly are plenty capable of keeping up with Sid's speed, especially Duper.

2) No, he traded Michalek because he was out of place and couldn't adapt to the system in place. That trade also may have helped the Pens go all-in on Parise and/or Suter.

3 and 4) He didn't use that cap space because he was all-in on Parise and possibly Suter. That's not necessarily is fault. Do you overpay for them and be handcuffed with a long-term deal if they don't work out? You know, kinda how some people felt with Paul Martin going into this offseason.

5 and 6) Yes, Sullivan is gone. It sucks, and I've mentioned that the Penguins had little to no trouble getting the puck into the zone when he was on the ice during a power play. However, Sully is also 38, injury prone (currently has a lower body injury, will miss next game, possibly the next game), and was VERY streaky. Looking over his game log right now, I see he had a four game pointless streak six times. That's roughly a third of the season of streakiness, which doesn't even include the random game or two where he was kept off the board. Even this season where somebody might say "oooh, 4 goalz!!!!111!!", three were scored on one game, and he's been pointless in 4 out of 6 games. I was thrilled when he signed here, and would have liked another year out of him. But do you bank on 38 year old players to be the primary puckmover on your power play and for consistency?

I won't even get into The Tangradi Experiment. He's improving but I'm sure the clock is ticking, that's all I'll say.

7) He drafts D...yes, lots of D. I'll give you this one. It's frustrating to see him go after dmen with such high picks year after year. However, and I'm hoping this is what he's going with, you stockpile assets in the hope that a team desperately needs a dman and is willing to pay. That's how you end up with a Kunitz. That's how you end up with a James Neal. Of course, that's how you also end up losing Strait. I'm on the fence about his stockpiling. I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it.

8) This was a team that was up against the cap for many years. When you spend to the cap, AHLers are the only thing that fit into the budget.

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01-31-2013, 02:27 PM
  #148
HandshakeLine
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Well, Shero gives up scraps and gets scraps in return. He wouldn't go after to better TBL players because he refuses to pay the price.
Except he has, as you state in your own examples. Hossa, Neal, Kunitz. You don't even know what you're mad about, you just want to be mad. Well, don't let me stop you, twinkletoes. Knock yourself out. Dodge that logic like you're on angel dust.

For the record, there's legit criticisms of the GM, but Lord knows, *****ing about trading two nobodys for a nothing isn't it.

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01-31-2013, 02:41 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
To everyone who wants to fire Shero... tell me who replaces him and tell me some GMs around the league that are way better. I want you to name 15 of course seeing that you think Ray Shero is worthy of being fired.
I don't know, but I would like to see/hear the visions of perspective candidates for the job. I'd really love to hear a candidate for the job say something that they put a large emphasis on drafting and player development and believe that the draft should be used to try to obtain high risk/reward type players due to how expensive they are to have via trade or free agency. I'd like to hear a candidate say that he wants to build the team around the stars to cater to the style of play that best suits their strengths.

What I don't want is someone who wants to build a grinder fest team which is more orientated for the type of roster that is devoid of all talent.

Theres plenty of agencies that do searches like this and produce names, it's not exactly easy as a fan to look up perspective GM's as we arent privy to their own philosophies. So basically after I learn about someone I can tell you whether I like them or not. As for Shero, I can't stand his philosophy with this team. A cup win buys someone a lot of leeway as we're seeing with Bylsma but much like we want to say he lucked his way into that, how much did having 2 generational talents on the roster getting better each year help a GM luck his way into a cup win?

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01-31-2013, 02:43 PM
  #150
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Jiggy, Jiggy, Jiggy . . . the day Craig Adams comes out of the lineup is the day someone pries the lineup card from Bylsma's cold hand.
But Sill can be the next Adams... Just you won't have to clock his B2B speed on a calendar.

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