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01-30-2013, 09:29 PM
  #101
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You cannot quantify chance.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Argument over. You can't quantify chances of winning the Cup, and thus you can't come up with a logical definition of "reasonable chance."

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01-30-2013, 09:36 PM
  #102
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Thank you for agreeing with me. Argument over. You can't quantify chances of winning the Cup, and thus you can't come up with a logical definition of "reasonable chance."
Yes there is. Having one of the best teams realistically gives you the best chance to win the Cup. Look at Detroit, most years we had our best roster we won the cup.

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01-30-2013, 09:42 PM
  #103
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I have to stop posting in these pointless arguments, who cares if they're specifically a contender or not.

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01-30-2013, 09:43 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Thank you for agreeing with me. Argument over. You can't quantify chances of winning the Cup, and thus you can't come up with a logical definition of "reasonable chance."
So if only one team can win the Stanley Cup each year, why do the other teams play? And who CHOOSES who wins if there is no such thing as chance? Why do good teams lose to not as good teams? Why is there a playoff if there is no chance for any team other than the one team chosen to win The Cup?

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01-30-2013, 09:43 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Yes there is. Having one of the best teams realistically gives you the best chance to win the Cup. Look at Detroit, most years we had our best roster we won the cup.
The Sharks, Canucks, Capitals, Bruins, Penguins, Devils, and Sabres disagree with you. All of them, points wise, had one of the best teams in the league. All of them didn't even get out of the first round. Even the '06 Red Wings Team that had the best record in the West didn't get out of the first round. You can't quantify chance. You can only look at hindsight. Hindsight says "Get in the playoffs, and we'll see what happens."

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So if only one team can win the Stanley Cup each year, why do the other teams play? And who CHOOSES who wins if there is no such thing as chance? Why do good teams lose to not as good teams? Why is there a playoff if there is no chance?
Strawman argument. I never said teams have no chance at the Stanley Cup. The playoffs are a crapshoot. That doesn't mean teams have no chance. That means you get in and you have a chance. What I'm actually arguing that you tried to warp for your own argument was that you can't assign a better chance to a team based on points in the regular season or team composition.

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01-30-2013, 09:51 PM
  #106
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I love this Jman trying to call out people, like he's somehow better than them. I'm a spoiled brat? Because I know what being a contender means?

Being a contender means you have one of the best teams, and one of the best chances to win the Cup in a given season.

Why the hell is that so hard to understand?

Keep up the ad hominem though, looks good on you.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
I love this Jman trying to call out people, like he's somehow better than them. I'm a spoiled brat? Because I know what being a contender means?

Being a contender means you have one of the best teams, and one of the best chances to win the Cup in a given season.

Why the hell is that so hard to understand?

Keep up the ad hominem though, looks good on you.
This is rubbish. If you don't have a point to make, don't post. Having one of the best teams does not instantaneously make you a contender. Simultaneously, not having a loaded roster does not make you not a contender. Or was Florida last year not a contender? Was Edmonton not a contender in 06? What about the Flyers in '10? What about all those Penguins teams since 2009 that haven't made it past the first round in ever? What about the Bruins last year, or the Sharks in 2009? The Capitals in 2010? The Habs in 08? You. Can't. Quantify. Chance. Not in the manner you're doing. It's mathematically impossible.

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01-30-2013, 10:04 PM
  #108
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Hey Captain Literal...this is a subjective argument, about gut instincts based on years of observation of the game, not math.

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01-30-2013, 10:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by THW View Post
Hey Captain Literal...this is a subjective argument, about gut instincts based on years of observation of the game, not math.
If this is a subjective matter to you, why bother arguing?

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01-30-2013, 10:11 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
If this is a subjective matter to you, why bother arguing?
You are right, you are not worth any more of my time, I have hockey to watch.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:16 PM
  #111
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You are right, you are not worth any more of my time, I have hockey to watch.
The feeling is mutual. I feel like I my time was wasted for the sake of arguing against someone who didn't even care what I thought.

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01-30-2013, 10:30 PM
  #112
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It's funny that people are assuming putting in Nyquist or Tatar over Cleary and possibly Sammy would ruin our chances of making the playoffs and downgrade the team. What is to say it wouldn't make us better and give them their next step in development?

Right now we are a team that relies way too much on the top half of our lineup, we could really use some depth scoring, which is what Nyquist and Tatar would give us. Plus they are young and can both skate.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:38 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
It's funny that people are assuming putting in Nyquist or Tatar over Cleary and possibly Sammy would ruin our chances of making the playoffs and downgrade the team. What is to say it wouldn't make us better and give them their next step in development?

Right now we are a team that relies way too much on the top half of our lineup, we could really use some depth scoring, which is what Nyquist and Tatar would give us. Plus they are young and can both skate.
I Don't think that putting Nyquist or Tatar in place of Cleary would make us worse, quite the opposite actually, but I also don't think it would be beneficial to Tatar or Nyquist to be playing 6 to 10 minutes a night with guys like Miller, and Emmerton when they could be playing 20+ minutes a night in GR with other prospects.

Bringing those guys up also means losing players for nothing through waivers and depleting the depth we have to replace players who get injured.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:59 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
It's funny that people are assuming putting in Nyquist or Tatar over Cleary and possibly Sammy would ruin our chances of making the playoffs and downgrade the team. What is to say it wouldn't make us better and give them their next step in development?

Right now we are a team that relies way too much on the top half of our lineup, we could really use some depth scoring, which is what Nyquist and Tatar would give us. Plus they are young and can both skate.
Frk It.

Why cant we have 3 scoring lines?

Bert-Dats-Flip
Franzen-Z-Brunner

Nyquist-Helm-Tatar

Or switch some things around so we have another "scoring centre"

Bert-Dats-Nyquist
Franzen-Z-Brunner
Tatar-Flip-Whoever
TooToo-Helm-Abdelkador

i.e. Tatar and Nyquist fully immersed.

Wouldn't these 3 lines allow us to smash other teams? (Sure they are small, our team is already small, so they either get injured or score alot right? How is that different than our first 2 lines now??

Drop whoever we need to from the bottom 6. Preferrably the oldest players.

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Old
01-30-2013, 11:26 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Frk It.

Why cant we have 3 scoring lines?

Bert-Dats-Flip
Franzen-Z-Brunner

Nyquist-Helm-Tatar

Or switch some things around so we have another "scoring centre"

Bert-Dats-Nyquist
Franzen-Z-Brunner
Tatar-Flip-Whoever
TooToo-Helm-Abdelkador

i.e. Tatar and Nyquist fully immersed.

Wouldn't these 3 lines allow us to smash other teams? (Sure they are small, our team is already small, so they either get injured or score alot right? How is that different than our first 2 lines now??

Drop whoever we need to from the bottom 6. Preferrably the oldest players.
Say we went with Option 1, We lose Cleary and Sammy to waivers, and go with Nyquist and Tatar on the 3rd line.

Then one of them fails to produce at the NHL level and is a disaster defensively, and/or we have an injury to someone like Brunner or Flip...Who do we call up to fill their spots? We've got lots of depth at C, but our next highest scoring winger is Mitchell Callahan and after that its 20 yr old Jurco who is a - player on a good AHL team.

Cleary has been terrible this year but considering how frequently our players have been injured lately, we need all the depth we can get.

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Old
01-30-2013, 11:32 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Say we went with Option 1, We lose Cleary and Sammy to waivers, and go with Nyquist and Tatar on the 3rd line.

Then one of them fails to produce at the NHL level and is a disaster defensively, and/or we have an injury to someone like Brunner or Flip...Who do we call up to fill their spots? We've got lots of depth at C, but our next highest scoring winger is Mitchell Callahan and after that its 20 yr old Jurco who is a - player on a good AHL team.

Cleary has been terrible this year but considering how frequently our players have been injured lately, we need all the depth we can get.
We just keep all those other "guys" - Miller/Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton/Abdelkader Make up the 4th line and spare players. If we have 5 injuries lets just face it, the team will be weaker

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01-30-2013, 11:59 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
We just keep all those other "guys" - Miller/Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton/Abdelkader Make up the 4th line and spare players. If we have 5 injuries lets just face it, the team will be weaker
We can only have 23 guys on the roster at a time so Lashoff would have to be sent back to Grand Rapids and another 2 players would have to be put on waivers when our injuries healed. (Emmerton, Mursak, Miller, Eaves, Huskins, White or Coliacovo) further depleting our depth.

Once we lose 4 of our current roster players any injury other than to a C, would put us in serious trouble.

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Old
01-31-2013, 02:19 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Probert View Post
Another good one here: the hit on Phaneuf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgeDlYSxLmQ
That's actually the last hit Cleary has thrown.

I'm happy that people are finally starting to recognize Cleary's stunning ineptitude. His physicality has completely disappeared, his Hockey IQ has always been below average (watching him dick around along the boards with the puck while Datsyuk and Z skate around in scoring areas is beyond frustrating) and the amount of injuries he's had over the past 4 seasons (the dude is always hurt) have completely robbed any speed he had which, in turn, makes him ineffective as a defensive forward.

Not to mention ever since Pronger broke his orbital bone back in Jan of '08 he's played the game like a scarred kid at recess. Cleary is the epitome of the Wings problem of getting pushed around and doing nothing to stand up for themselves.

His expiration date expired 2 seasons ago.

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01-31-2013, 02:46 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Say we went with Option 1, We lose Cleary and Sammy to waivers, and go with Nyquist and Tatar on the 3rd line.

Then one of them fails to produce at the NHL level and is a disaster defensively, and/or we have an injury to someone like Brunner or Flip...Who do we call up to fill their spots? We've got lots of depth at C, but our next highest scoring winger is Mitchell Callahan and after that its 20 yr old Jurco who is a - player on a good AHL team.

Cleary has been terrible this year but considering how frequently our players have been injured lately, we need all the depth we can get.
The only thing Cleary's got going for him is he does PK a fair amount, roughly 2 mins per game. So if I had to guess I'd say Eaves would be the first guy who would face the waiver wire. Mursak can't because he's injured. Same with Sammy. At least that's how I think it works. If we need to waive anyone else I can see Cleary being the guy. We'd need to replace his PK time but that shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.

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01-31-2013, 02:53 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
The only thing Cleary's got going for him is he does PK a fair amount, roughly 2 mins per game. So if I had to guess I'd say Eaves would be the first guy who would face the waiver wire. Mursak can't because he's injured. Same with Sammy. At least that's how I think it works. If we need to waive anyone else I can see Cleary being the guy. We'd need to replace his PK time but that shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.
Does Samuelsson have a NMC or a NTC? If it's NMC then he can't go to waivers.

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01-31-2013, 05:02 PM
  #121
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Does Samuelsson have a NMC or a NTC? If it's NMC then he can't go to waivers.
I think so. He's more likely to be an amnesty buyout IMO.

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01-31-2013, 05:08 PM
  #122
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I wonder how that works though, can you be bought out with a NMC? I was under the impression that a NMC basically gives the player the say in whether they move AT ALL. A buyout would mean they're moving on, No Movement would seem to indicate the player could nix that too.

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01-31-2013, 06:30 PM
  #123
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I wonder how that works though, can you be bought out with a NMC? I was under the impression that a NMC basically gives the player the say in whether they move AT ALL. A buyout would mean they're moving on, No Movement would seem to indicate the player could nix that too.
With the amnesty buy out I am pretty sure you can buy out anyone under contract. The contract amount no longer counts against the salary cap but does count against the revenue the players receive under the CBA.

I'm guessing it will all get spelled out later in the season.

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02-02-2013, 08:38 PM
  #124
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God Cleary is so bad. He plays 15+ minutes to much each night. Tatar would be better suited for a 3rd line role than Nyquist. Bring up Tatar.

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02-02-2013, 08:40 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
I wonder how that works though, can you be bought out with a NMC? I was under the impression that a NMC basically gives the player the say in whether they move AT ALL. A buyout would mean they're moving on, No Movement would seem to indicate the player could nix that too.
Cleary's NTC has expired IIRC.

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