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01-31-2013, 01:16 AM
  #26
Ulf Hullberg
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First post of the year boys, as I had to comment on Ladd.

He absolutely makes me shout come'on Ladd at him more than he should, however, as long as he can continue to produce offensively he is still a bonafide 2nd line LW.

I just ask...reduce the untimely penalties, get a little stronger on his stick when chipping the puck in & out of the zone, and try playing with a little more edge. I wanna notice him a little more in games.

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01-31-2013, 01:58 AM
  #27
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I am a bit much even in person haha

Speaking of which... I need to come to the Peg for a game sometime
I know that feeling bro

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Old
01-31-2013, 02:31 AM
  #28
untouchable21
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Ladd is an ideal 2nd liner as of right now. Once his production drops, he will slot nicely on the third, but that won't be for several years I would think.

A little off topic, but ....

To me, Ladd seems like the type of player the Penguins covet to play on Crosby's wing. Problem for them is we aren't dealing him and they likely don't have the necessary assets we'd be looking for even if we were to entertain that thought.

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01-31-2013, 02:33 AM
  #29
garret9
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Originally Posted by untouchable21 View Post
Ladd is an ideal 2nd liner as of right now. Once his production drops, he will slot nicely on the third, but that won't be for several years I would think.

A little off topic, but ....

To me, Ladd seems like the type of player the Penguins covet to play on Crosby's wing. Problem for them is we aren't dealing him and they likely don't have the necessary assets we'd be looking for even if we were to entertain that thought.
Ladd for Malkin... Done haha

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Old
01-31-2013, 02:36 AM
  #30
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Ladd for Malkin... Done haha
In a perfect JETS WORLD. I wish!!!!!

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01-31-2013, 09:55 AM
  #31
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I think the expectation of a top 6 forward is:

- fast
- dangler
- sniper
- great passer

Of course some of the very best are all of these but top 6 forwards can excel in some areas but not other. Ladd is a very high end grinder. He has better than average finish which allows him to score at a top 6 rate.

I think his hockey awareness is below top 6 level. That is why he tends to turn the puck over in bad spots and make some less than smart decisions. He is more gritty than a typical top 6 winger which is a benefit, but at the same time makes him prone to the odd bad penalty.

He might not be a picture perfect top 6 winger, or captain for that matter, but I am glad he is on the team. I think his true worth will emerge in the post season.
I get that this is the "expectation" of a lot of fans, but it takes a preliminary look here: http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/depth-charts to realize that most teams have at least one player on the TOP line that is more inline with ladd, and ladd's production is one of the highest of these types of players.

I don't know if it's semantics, or ignorance, but the idea that your top six needs/should be what you've just described is ******** (i'm not calling you out in particular on this, this is a widespread belief). Quite clearly, not a single organization believes that, as i haven't come across a single team that doesn't have a Ladd type player in the top 6, and in truth MANY have one in the top 3.

This is just another in a long line of unrealistic fan expectations including
30 goals makes a goal scorer (any less and he's "average")
60 pts + for "MINIMUM" top line work
40+ points is third line production.

I get it, we don't often pay a lot of attention to other teams, mostly what we get is highlight real/superstar coverage (aside from our own team). So there's a tendency to accept those players as the "norm" on your top line (top 120) when in reality, there are only 10-20 players putting up that kind of production in a season.


Sorry for the rant, this topic really gets my goat. There's mountains of evidence that say Ladd is top line forward (one of the best "complementary" top line players) and an exceptional second line forward, but no one seems to believe it.

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01-31-2013, 10:04 AM
  #32
pegcity
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
No he won't but he'll score more goals than the other third liners, because he scores goals at a faster rate than them.
As I pointed out...
His goal scoring rate is low 1st line level.
When you compare him to other top6 players who play his level of competition he scores at a top 10 rate.


Re: penalties
He does create a bit but less than: Kane, Burmistrov, Jokinen, Thorburn, Antropov
He also draws about the same amount of penalties as he creates, which negates it a lot...


Re: giveaways
He does giveaway more than the rest of the forwards on the team (well actually Jokinen in Calgary was worse), but he does play on a line with Little who has the best takeaway/giveaway differential in the league (don't know if playing winger will change that though)...


Why are we all discussing things I've already proved and shown?

Mods... can we sticky this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1324453 lawl
The problem with your analysis is all penalties are equal and all turnovers are equal. Ladd makes more bad noticeable mistakes than any other forward which is unfortunate because he's the captain.

I get that he has a great shot and sometimes does great things on the ice however it's countered by his half dazed mistakes. They seriously need to put smelling salts on the bench to wake him up.

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01-31-2013, 10:25 AM
  #33
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As a player, he's pretty good and is reliable for 30 goals every year.

As a captain though, he is great. You need a very specific type of character to captain a team through a relocation to a Canadian market (especially one which is somewhat of a fishbowl). Ladd fits that role perfect and has done a great job on and especially off the ice.

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01-31-2013, 01:37 PM
  #34
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He was 15th in goals scored by a LW last season and 29th in points for a LW. Hard to argue his production, not every team can have a Neal, Ovechkin, or Parise on their top line.

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01-31-2013, 02:20 PM
  #35
garret9
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Originally Posted by pegcity View Post
The problem with your analysis is all penalties are equal and all turnovers are equal. Ladd makes more bad noticeable mistakes than any other forward which is unfortunate because he's the captain.

I get that he has a great shot and sometimes does great things on the ice however it's countered by his half dazed mistakes. They seriously need to put smelling salts on the bench to wake him up.
True that not all are equal (but given enough period of time they should somewhat equal out).
But, also ones mind isn't immune to exaggerate the "unequalness".

I wasn't really defending his turnovers, just saying I'm thankful our polar opposite is on the same line as him. To be the worst on a team as a per minute rate isn't good no matter how you cut the pie.

I'll defend that his penalties are actually not as bad as people stipulate. He has less penalties, less "lazy" penalties (holding, hooking, etc), less third period penalties, less penalties when the game is close (all per minute) than some of our other players... actually Wheeler is one of the worst for "timing" of penalties. IC did a thing on it but I didn't like how they didn't make it "per minute".

We have to remember that the top line had way more TOI, ESPECIALLY in those "clutch" minutes because that's when you put out the top line. The "clutch", or more importantly importance, of those minutes is also psychologically going to weight those moments more in a fans mind.

No matter how you cut it though, Ladd has weaknesses like every other player in the NHL. No one is perfect. There are top6 guys worse and better than Ladd in scoring, penalties, and giveaways. The results and your ability to create those results are what makes someone a legit top6 guy and, IMO results-wise, Ladd and Kane are exactly what you'd want in your two top6 LWers. One that can dominate scoring, and one that can create secondary scoring while fighting off tough match-ups. We also have a great similar match in RW with Wheeler and Little. I like Jokinen and Antropov, but they aren't as "ideal" as the other two positions, but (yay two buts in one sentence) if Burmistrov and Scheifele hit close to their ceilings, they would be.

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Old
01-31-2013, 02:29 PM
  #36
pegcity
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I'm guessing you and others on this board follow the league more than I do so you'd know more about who would be considered a top 6 forward. There must be a shortage of Left-Wingers in the league now..........or there always has been.

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01-31-2013, 02:30 PM
  #37
Joe Hallenback
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There are 29 teams in the league that would love to have Ladd on their team

It has been my misfortune to listen to people who have never stepped foot on the ice in anger and then try to justify why a player of Ladd's ilk is not quality.

People seem to have some notion that team of pretty petunia's is what is going to work without some players that can get the job done in the hard places on the ice.

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01-31-2013, 02:41 PM
  #38
garret9
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Originally Posted by pegcity View Post
I'm guessing you and others on this board follow the league more than I do so you'd know more about who would be considered a top 6 forward. There must be a shortage of Left-Wingers in the league now..........or there always has been.
Well I looked at him compared to ALL top6 forwards too, including C and RW and he still has the results of a top6... so no...
It's just peoples perception of what top6 means in terms of results....

Remember he's the 35th fastest even strength goalscorer in the NHL last year... period.


Last edited by garret9: 01-31-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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Old
02-01-2013, 07:30 AM
  #39
Grind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegcity View Post
I'm guessing you and others on this board follow the league more than I do so you'd know more about who would be considered a top 6 forward. There must be a shortage of Left-Wingers in the league now..........or there always has been.
indeed its closer to "always has been" but it's not that left wingers are some how systematically less effective then forwards, it's that a lot of fans have a drummed up notion of how effective players are. There's a pretty big disconnect between actual player performance and fan expectation. THe only thing i can guess it based off of is media coverage.

for example someone in another thread said "i didn't realise 28 to 30 goals warranted a top six spot", since 1996 the most forwards to score 30 goals in a single season is 47. 6*30= 120 top six players, but coming super close to doing something what at most 47 players have done in a single season doesn't get you into the stop 120?. 28-30 goals warrants "top line" most seasons. I'd go back and do gp/60 but it seems pointless.

Not every team is going to have 3 star forwards, 2 star d, an d vezina calibre goalie, though due to some disconnect, a lot of fans expect this (though they say "top line" or "top pairing" or "legit stater" in the type of performance they are seeking is actually a considerable step above that)

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