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Old
01-30-2013, 05:58 PM
  #751
Captain Hook
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I'd like to acquire Kessel but a good winger that's under contract like he is will cost a premium and I don't think we'd do it. Probably would cost Sutter, a top D prospect and a 1st. Basically what we got for Staal if not a tad more.

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01-30-2013, 06:06 PM
  #752
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I don't think Shero wants to get into having to deal with another big time UFA due a contract at the same time Geno/Letang are.

If he's smart, he makes a couple of hockey trades for players still in their RFA years. Cost controlled assets who can grow with the team. Rather than overpaying for free agents or going the rental route. Kunitz and Cooke may well be nearing their end here. I'm not sold on this organization having the ability to replace them in-house.

Aside from getting a Perry or Iginla, I'd go that route.

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01-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #753
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What it really comes down to is most teams don't have the luxury of two number one centers,(maybe LA) and there both getting paid like that to, so getting weapons for them on the wing will be a major problem, 30-40 goal wingers also don't come cheap,your best bet is to ride it out with what we got and hope the 3rd and 4th line guys start chipping some goals in.

I think are defense is way worse than are forwards and I still would rather have that top D guy who can do it all. A Ryan McDonagh would be a great fit,but I know the rangers would never part with him.

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01-30-2013, 06:40 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I'm not a huge fan of Kessel. I mean, I love what he does, he's really fun to watch, and he'd add a huge goal scoring dimension outside of Sid, Geno, and Neal, but that's also another point. We have two guys who can score 50 in Sid and Geno, and 1 guy who can score 40. Adding a guy like Kessel is adding a ton of salary, taking away flexibility, and also like lighting a match with a flame thrower. Completely unnecessary and overkill to a problem that may not be goal scoring at all.

We have a chemistry problem...not a goal scoring problem.
I don't think we need a Kessel type player/forward. And Kessel is far from my ideal player. But I do think we need someone with more offensive ability than Dupuis/Kunitz in the top 6. I'm alright with Geno/Neal with a 3rd wheel that works for the 2nd line. And I'm alright with both Dupuis or Kunitz on Sid's line... just not both of them. We saw last year and with Montreal the other year that when Crosby doesn't have anyone decent on his line, that they can shut that line down pretty quickly by focusing on him. If he had someone on his line who could contribute a bit more offensively that didn't rely solely on Crosby to do all the heavy lifting, we'd be a lot better off.

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01-30-2013, 06:44 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by YinzerpenguiN View Post
What it really comes down to is most teams don't have the luxury of two number one centers,(maybe LA) and there both getting paid like that to, so getting weapons for them on the wing will be a major problem, 30-40 goal wingers also don't come cheap,your best bet is to ride it out with what we got and hope the 3rd and 4th line guys start chipping some goals in.

I think are defense is way worse than are forwards and I still would rather have that top D guy who can do it all. A Ryan McDonagh would be a great fit,but I know the rangers would never part with him.
We could have afforded Ryder at 3.5m. We could have afforded Semin at 7m (although I only would have done so on a 1 yr deal - but would have paid 5m on a 2-3 yr deal).

I agree we'll be hard pressed to fit everyone in if we went after another allstar winger. But that's not what most of us are asking for. We're just asking for an upgrade over Dupuis and whatever 3rd/4th line grinder that we put on Geno's other wing. This shouldn't cost more than 3-5m, and would make a huge difference in how our attack looks.

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01-30-2013, 07:08 PM
  #756
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We don't need a guy who should be in a wheel chair though
Are you saying Iginla should be in a wheelchair . . . oh, I think you mean Morrow . . .

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01-30-2013, 07:09 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
I'd like to acquire Kessel but a good winger that's under contract like he is will cost a premium and I don't think we'd do it. Probably would cost Sutter, a top D prospect and a 1st. Basically what we got for Staal if not a tad more.
If I can get a top winger for Sid and the difference between a deal and no deal is Brandon Sutter, then Brandon Sutter should be dealt and you take your chances with Vitale (or a deadline rental).

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01-30-2013, 07:19 PM
  #758
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If I can get a top winger for Sid and the difference between a deal and no deal is Brandon Sutter, then Brandon Sutter should be dealt and you take your chances with Vitale (or a deadline rental).
Depends on the winger. I'm just not sure Shero is high enough on Kessel to pay a premium for him. I kind of doubt he is but only he knows...

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Old
01-30-2013, 07:26 PM
  #759
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Here's part of the problem as I see it.

The Pens have zero depth on this team compared to years in the past. It's fairly evident how much a guy like Steve Sullivan was important to the Pens when you lose him. If Crosby, Malkin, and Neal aren't scoring, we are screwed. Our secondary scoring forwards consisting of Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke, Sutter, Kennedy, and random person thrown on Malkin's wing aren't producing.

If we don't have depth to trade from on the big club, we're likely going to have to A) hope that everything gets better with what we have, B) deal a pick or mid-prospect for someone like Brendan Morrow to patch things up, or C) trade away some of the young talent we've accumulated on defense in the system.

That brings me to my next point. Other than a guy like Kessel that could be on the block, there is really no impact player on the market as of yet. The problem is with such a short season, by the time the trade deadline gets here, there may be a lot of teams fighting for playoff spots and may not have any interest in trading their veteran for our plethora of prospects. If Anaheim is fighting for the playoffs, they may roll the dice and keep Perry. It's just an unknown at this point with the short season.

I think the likely situation is that Shero is going to have to either A) sit tight and hope the ship rights itself with what we have in the organization or B) Make some patch work trades to acquire guys in the mold of Morrow, Umberger, etc (a veteran who will hold us over for a while).

If I had to guess, I would think Shero is going to acquire at least one veteran winger and one veteran defenseman. This team is lacking some older veteran leadership in the mold of guys like Guerin, Talbot, Gill, etc.

I was at the game last night and was appalled. The boos were louder for the Pens than the cheers. Between Lovejoy getting boarded and Martin (from the Isles) throwing a few shots at people like Cooke, Kennedy, and others at the end, no one went out there with the idea that I'm going to fight for my team. This team could use some balls Mr. Shero.

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Old
01-30-2013, 07:30 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Are you saying Iginla should be in a wheelchair . . . oh, I think you mean Morrow . . .
I meant Morrow. Someone was talking about him being a third wheel or whatever.

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Old
01-30-2013, 07:30 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Depends on the winger. I'm just not sure Shero is high enough on Kessel to pay a premium for him. I kind of doubt he is but only he knows...
I wasn't talking about Kessel. I don't think he's worth it. BUT, Bobby Ryan . . . if Sutter makes the deal, then bye-bye Brandon.

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01-30-2013, 09:39 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I wasn't talking about Kessel. I don't think he's worth it. BUT, Bobby Ryan . . . if Sutter makes the deal, then bye-bye Brandon.
Going by what the offers are, our lineup should look like this.

Iginla for Despres+1st
Ryder+Morrow(both half priced) for Tangradi+Maatta+2nd
Ryan for Sutter+Kunitz+Bennett?

Iginla-Crosby-Ryan
Ryder-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Jeffrey-Dupuis
Cooke-Vitale-TK

Niskanen-Letang
Orpik-Martin
Eng-Bortuzzo
Lovejoy

Fleury
Vokoun

I don't think it works cap wise, i guess buyout Martin. If Pens bow out in the 1st round STILL, good bye Shero AND Bylsma IMO. But obviously that wont be our lineup, it's just a fantasy one that would be epic.


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Old
01-30-2013, 10:01 PM
  #763
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Don't kid yourself Jules... we didn't have enough depth with Sullivan either.

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:27 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Don't kid yourself Jules... we didn't have enough depth with Sullivan either.
He isn't. Why trivialize his argument, bro?
Like others here he is pointing out that Sullivan is missed for what he brought for ONE REASON: it wasn't replaced! And we already missed important elements that haven't been addressed either.

It is not the player Steve Sullivan that is missed on this team, it is the function he had on the PP and because at least in spurts he had the hands and hockey IQ to play with good players and make things happen.

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01-30-2013, 10:36 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
He isn't. Why trivialize his argument, bro?
Not trivializing at all. Simply trying to remind people that our team's deficiencies were almost exactly the same (Martin better now than he was then, PP was slightly better but still inconsistent) and to the same degree, with Sully here. We had some nice stretches where he and the team played well but IMO if he were here today, we'd still be having the same conversations.

The issue is a systemic one (literally and figuratively), not a case of one or two personnel mistakes / line arrangement mistakes / etc. With Sully here, maybe we score a few more PPG over the season so far, maybe a couple losses look less ugly, but ultimately the problem would remain.

BTW your new avatar and slogan are quality.

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01-30-2013, 11:41 PM
  #766
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I'm on the Lee Stempniak train as a cheap, realistic acquisition.

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01-30-2013, 11:47 PM
  #767
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I'm on the Lee Stempniak train as a cheap, realistic acquisition.
i'd rather acquire Lee Remick.

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Old
01-30-2013, 11:53 PM
  #768
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Don't think Stempniak is going to resolve anything for this team.

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01-31-2013, 01:05 AM
  #769
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Pens need a winger bad. Ideally 2 wingers, 1st line wing for SId and a 2nd line wing for Geno. But a 1st line wing for Sid could serve to bump Kunitz to line 2 and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Without this, this team is in big trouble.

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01-31-2013, 01:26 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Pens need a winger bad. Ideally 2 wingers, 1st line wing for SId and a 2nd line wing for Geno. But a 1st line wing for Sid could serve to bump Kunitz to line 2 and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Without this, this team is in big trouble.
While not disputing that we need at least one quality winger, I am much more interested in all the glaring systems related issues, Bylsma doubts etc. Reasons being, that with the cap-space we have and the budding desperation Shero must feel to get results in the post-season, I have zero doubts that we will add an impact forward for Crosby at the deadline if not sooner (though not before some teams with relevant targets are considered out of the running... otherwise prices will be untenable).

But even if that guy is Iginla for instance, we are just not going to get results if we don't have a functional structure. Our first line can hardly even set up in the offensive zone. It is one rush and done.
Never mind which line it is, our forecheck is ineffective and unless it is Malkin's line, there is hardly any sustained offensive zone time shifts.
Our breakouts playing 5 on 5 are terrible and zone entries 5 on 4 are so uniquely bad that it would be hilarious if we weren't Pens fans.
Defensively we still suffer big time against any aggressive forecheck, because our D-men simply do not play tight enough/collapse enough around Fleury, and when one is caught out from a mistake or being as aggressive meeting forwards on the wall in our zone, as they are seemingly supposed to be, they are receiving terrible support from the forwards (C's in the main) who should then be offering support in front of our goalies, tracking their man etc.

Then you can add potential country club issues; among which we have the much discussed accountability issue for vets and lack of trust/honest chances being given to the youngsters we need to build up rather than tear down. Lack of any discernible fire also.

Getting an impact forward helps, for sure, more so if it is a player who can also add significantly to the PP on the left wall. But ultimately it is going to be the equivalent of polishing a turd if all the structural issues are not dealt with. Then any hot, cohesive and well coached team will have our ***** in the playoffs.

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01-31-2013, 01:38 AM
  #771
Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Not trivializing at all. Simply trying to remind people that our team's deficiencies were almost exactly the same (Martin better now than he was then, PP was slightly better but still inconsistent) and to the same degree, with Sully here. We had some nice stretches where he and the team played well but IMO if he were here today, we'd still be having the same conversations.

The issue is a systemic one (literally and figuratively), not a case of one or two personnel mistakes / line arrangement mistakes / etc. With Sully here, maybe we score a few more PPG over the season so far, maybe a couple losses look less ugly, but ultimately the problem would remain.

BTW your new avatar and slogan are quality.
I know what you are saying but it's not just losing Sullivan either.

We lost Michalek, who ate up 20 minutes a night and was our top defenseman for PK minutes without having him replaced. We traded him for no one that could help us at the NHL level anytime soon. With the injury to Niskanen, you really start to see how thin the Pens top 4 is.

Sutter was a downgrade offensively from Staal.

In essence we lost two very important players to our special teams that were not replaced and a downgrade to Staal's offensive production so far.

This is not including the loss of guys like Asham since he was essentially replaced by a guy like Glass.

The bottom line is, even if you don't feel Sullivan is that important, it means we're forced to put 4 different people on the revolving door at Malkin's left wing and have little NHL depth of value to trade to anyone. Injuries on the defense show the importance of having depth in the top 4 since we dealt Michalek without replacing him.

The depth is thinner than previous years...that's all I'm saying.

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01-31-2013, 03:24 AM
  #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Not trivializing at all. Simply trying to remind people that our team's deficiencies were almost exactly the same (Martin better now than he was then, PP was slightly better but still inconsistent) and to the same degree, with Sully here. We had some nice stretches where he and the team played well but IMO if he were here today, we'd still be having the same conversations.

The issue is a systemic one (literally and figuratively), not a case of one or two personnel mistakes / line arrangement mistakes / etc. With Sully here, maybe we score a few more PPG over the season so far, maybe a couple losses look less ugly, but ultimately the problem would remain.

BTW your new avatar and slogan are quality.
Exactly, like 3 of the 5 big glaring penguin problems could be fixed with coaching right now.

My twitter tag I've been using #DiscoNeedsToGoGo

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Old
01-31-2013, 07:42 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
If you can get Sid an Bobby Ryan or better caliber, then the only Penguins who are untouchable are Geno, Neal, and Letang.

If the difference between a deal and no deal is Brandon Sutter, then I say it's Vitale's turn to center the third line.
Agree. I think the upgrade in the top six would be greater than the downgrade in the C3 spot

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Old
01-31-2013, 08:00 AM
  #774
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Dustin, makes us all feel a little better about the third C spot.

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Old
01-31-2013, 08:14 AM
  #775
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I don't think Despres is as expendable as some might think. He looks like he's on the verge of being a legitimate top 4 guy. Deal him and suddenly you have a hole there. I personally think Niskanen is a good bottom pair guy, but to me doesn't bring enough to the table to be a top 4 guy. Guys like Morrow, Dumo and Harrington are at least a year, probably two years away from being top 4 guys, and there's no guarantee they ever will. You could argue that right now a pretty weak top 4 is just as big an issue as the hole on the wing. Deal Despres and that problem could get worse.

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