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Do you fire Laviolette? (Philadelphia Daily News article dated March 12, 2013)

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01-31-2013, 09:28 AM
  #201
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What is with the obsession with Shea Weber? How many cups did he win? How many conference championships has he been to? If all that was required to win a Stanley Cup was "#1 defenseman", Nashville must have won the last three Stanley Cups with two #1 defensemen and an all world goalie, which is normally the fans' obsession.

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01-31-2013, 09:28 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
What he can be criticized for is asset management. For every traded pick, there is a ripple effect that affects the management and outlook of the team later on down the road. I'm thinking about wasted 2nd rounders that could be traded for goalies at deadlines. I'm also thinking about the Flyers not drafting defensemen. Wouldn't d-men drafted 2-3 years ago look good on this roster right about now?

Hey, maybe that's a club philosophy, I don't know. But relying on free agency/trades/offer sheets to have a shot at getting extremely important players is a huge gamble and, I think, a losing strategy. It takes us out of the driver's seat and leaves too much to chance. Draft and build internally. The resistance (impatience) the Flyers show to doing that is definitely something that can be blamed on management.
This, a thousand times this. The Flyers have had trouble properly managing their assets for the length of Holmgren's tenure, particularly the areas of the cap, draft picks, and prospects. This has hurt them in terms of building from within, but also in terms of being able to have flexibility to respond to injuries and areas of need. Failure to understand how the cap truly works has lead to the need to perform salary dumps all too often (Gagne, Upshall, etc) and limited their ability to handle injuries at critical points in the season. It has also limited their ability to build a team from within, as those salary dumps have used up draft picks and prospects to get other teams to take on salary for us.

So now, we arrive at a point where the defense is below par, but there are not enough assets to acquire what is needed nor apparently a plan beyond "Get Shea Weber whatever it takes". While the Schenn move has seemed to be an acceptable one for both teams so far, it did not address what is really wrong with this defense, which is the lack of a puck moving d-man.

Yes, some blame must fall on Laviolette for not reacting to the changes in the composition of the team. But let's not forget that he doesn't acquire the players, nor does he determine that there must be a lockout that deprives him of any chance of sorting out a defense that has been majorly changed since the previous season. I'll admit I like Lavy and would like him to stay, but I think firing him at this point would be premature.

I do think Holmgren is not free of fault here either, and would look more closely at his asset and cap management. For God's sake, get someone in the front office who understands the goddamned CBA. I'm tired of posters on internet message boards understanding this stuff better then people PAID TO DO SO.

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01-31-2013, 09:47 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
You can play this game any time to defend a GM. It's an absolutely ridiculous defense. Maybe Weber did want to play in Vancouver or Detroit, but it's clear he also wanted to come here and there's tons of soundbites from his agent about how Philly was his first choice. Maybe that's all lies, maybe it was all about the money to Weber, I don't know, but what I do know is that we would've at least had a shot at Weber if we didn't offersheet him. I also feel fairly confident that no team in the NHL, especially not the Rangers, would've put together a package rivaling the "Couturier + Schenn + +" that the Preds were asking for for an RFA Shea Weber, who could've simply decided to sit out 1 lockout-shortened season to get to UFA status

At the very least without the offer sheet the Preds price would've had to come down or else there would've been no trade of Shea Weber. And if that happened, perhaps the Flyers are the highest bidder via trade and they get Weber. We actually matched up very well w/ the Preds in terms of having players that fit their needs. I would argue that we were in a better position than most of our competitors, with our large amount of young talent @ the forward position. Instead, Homer got impatient (a hallmark of his tenure as GM is impatience) and he pulled the trigger on a dumb offer sheet and he cost us a legitimate chance @ Shea Weber.
That's not how it works. He would have to play some portion of the year to fulfill his contract. But regardless, you have no idea what other competitors would over to assume the Flyers had the best deal. Plus, what would said deal do to the lineup? Adding Weber to a depleted Flyers would probably result in the same outcome Weber was use to in Nashville. The point of the offersheet was to add Weber without subtracting pieces. That is specifically what Holmgren said from the trading deadline thru the summer that he wanted to add without subtracting. You can't complain about trading draft picks and lack of patience on one hand than want him to gut the roster to bring in one player on the other. Which is it: patience with the current growing pains or go for the cup every year at all costs?

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01-31-2013, 09:59 AM
  #204
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I don't think you can fire Lavy right now. Look at the circumstances around all these teams and the way this year began.

1)Some players were playing in lower level league in Europe to remain in game shape and ready to go when the NHL season would begin. Now the other players were working out home, but there is no shape like hockey shape. Players had no exhibition games to get back to the speed of the NHL, especially the younger players. Training camps were one week, and BAM the season was upon us. These guys need some more time before firing the whole staff of the Flyers.

2)Just like injuries shouldn't cost a player a job, they shouldn't cost the coach/GM one. Hartnell, as much as people love to hate him, is a huge part of this team. His foot injury hurts our 1st line, and in return our entire depth down the wing. Couple that with Briere not being ready to go to start the season and also him still not being 100%. Now we have Mez injured on the back end. He might be playing on our 3rd pairing, but he is a top 4 defender. So we had our 1st line winger, 2nd line center/winger, and top 4 defender out to begin the season. It's tough to maintain a superior game with so many injuries right now. Also I was mentioning this during the Rangers game, but Girous is hurt. It's something in his lower body. His skating isn't as strong as it was last year, and at one point on the back check the Flyers got the puck and Giroux hunched over with nobody near him. He is clearly playing in pain right now.

3) We are 7 games into the season. I know its a 48 game season, but we still have time to right this ship. This is why none of us are GM's in this league. We make reactionary decisions too much. You knew once we went down 2-0 to the Rangers that this board would explode about either trades, firings, etc. We all need to sit back, let the players and coaches figure out what the problem is(which unlike some of you, I believe they can) and see if they can get it back on course.

I will say though, not a better season to fail right now for a stud defender than right now. With the quick schedule, this season will be final sooner than we know, and we will be looking forward to a extremely quick off season.

EDIT: If this has been said already I apologize, I didn't read through the entire thread. Pretty much figured it would be the same nonsense we see when we go on a losing streak.


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01-31-2013, 10:36 AM
  #205
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That's not how it works. He would have to play some portion of the year to fulfill his contract. But regardless, you have no idea what other competitors would over to assume the Flyers had the best deal. Plus, what would said deal do to the lineup? Adding Weber to a depleted Flyers would probably result in the same outcome Weber was use to in Nashville. The point of the offersheet was to add Weber without subtracting pieces. That is specifically what Holmgren said from the trading deadline thru the summer that he wanted to add without subtracting. You can't complain about trading draft picks and lack of patience on one hand than want him to gut the roster to bring in one player on the other. Which is it: patience with the current growing pains or go for the cup every year at all costs?
Actually, that is how it works. Weber is under no obligation to play his final RFA year. He hits age 27 and if he's not under contract, he becomes a UFA no questions asked. If Weber sat out 2012-2013, he'd be an unrestricted free agent summer of 2013. Alternatively, Weber could've just signed the 1 year 7.5M tender and again he would've been an unrestricted free agent summer of 2013. But no matter what, Weber could've forced his way to unrestricted free agency.

I don't necessarily know what other teams would offer for Shea Weber, but any intelligent fan can get reasonably close by looking at what similar players w/ 1 year till UFA status have gotten. It starts w/ Brayden Schenn and then maybe you have to add a Voracek and a 1st. This is actually considerably more than most star players one year from UFA get, but Weber is elite so I upped the price a little. Would I trade that for the best defenseman in the game? Absolutely without hesitation.

As far as "gutting the roster", I don't think trading Schenn and Voracek and a 1st guts the roster at all. Far from it actually.

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01-31-2013, 10:58 AM
  #206
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What is with the obsession with Shea Weber? How many cups did he win? How many conference championships has he been to? If all that was required to win a Stanley Cup was "#1 defenseman", Nashville must have won the last three Stanley Cups with two #1 defensemen and an all world goalie, which is normally the fans' obsession.
it doesnt matter, pronger got traded from stl to the oilers and got them to the cup finals he was never in the playoffs in that time, he got traded to the ducks and won a cup, he got traded to the flyers and got them to the cup finals, i think defense is the most important player in defense and offense, especially when you need a big shot from the point on the pp, the flyers dont have it.

colorado got blake and bourque and won the cup, Detroit got larry murphy and they won cups twice, plus brad stuart in 08 and Jiri Slegr in 2002 and won it.

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01-31-2013, 11:07 AM
  #207
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Actually, that is how it works. Weber is under no obligation to play his final RFA year. He hits age 27 and if he's not under contract, he becomes a UFA no questions asked. If Weber sat out 2012-2013, he'd be an unrestricted free agent summer of 2013. Alternatively, Weber could've just signed the 1 year 7.5M tender and again he would've been an unrestricted free agent summer of 2013. But no matter what, Weber could've forced his way to unrestricted free agency.

I don't necessarily know what other teams would offer for Shea Weber, but any intelligent fan can get reasonably close by looking at what similar players w/ 1 year till UFA status have gotten. It starts w/ Brayden Schenn and then maybe you have to add a Voracek and a 1st. This is actually considerably more than most star players one year from UFA get, but Weber is elite so I upped the price a little. Would I trade that for the best defenseman in the game? Absolutely without hesitation.

As far as "gutting the roster", I don't think trading Schenn and Voracek and a 1st guts the roster at all. Far from it actually.

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My bad, your right. I was confusing his situation with Radulov's but Radulov still was under contract. Again you are assuming no one would put a better offer on the table than Schenn Voracek and a 1st. Kreider JT Miller Del Zotto plus a 1st the Rangers could of offered. Edmonton could of offered the 1st overall plus Gagne and Klefbom. I could come up with a ton of deals but I would be just as speculating as you are. What we do know is the Preds were rumored to want Schenn Couturier plus other things. That is a huge overpayment to my opinion. Having a Norris calibur defensemen does not necessarily equal a Stanley Cup

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01-31-2013, 11:36 AM
  #208
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My bad, your right. I was confusing his situation with Radulov's but Radulov still was under contract. Again you are assuming no one would put a better offer on the table than Schenn Voracek and a 1st. Kreider JT Miller Del Zotto plus a 1st the Rangers could of offered. Edmonton could of offered the 1st overall plus Gagne and Klefbom. I could come up with a ton of deals but I would be just as speculating as you are. What we do know is the Preds were rumored to want Schenn Couturier plus other things. That is a huge overpayment to my opinion. Having a Norris calibur defensemen does not necessarily equal a Stanley Cup
You can come up with a lot of potential deals, but you're forgetting one thing: Shea Weber has to like his eventual destination or else he's not going to sign long-term there. He didn't want to play in NY because he didn't want to live in Manhattan, hence no long term contract (I can link you to the comments by his agent if you'd like). Vancouver, his home town, didn't/doesn't have the cap room. That's two of the biggest players for Weber right there out of the bidding. And the deals you're offering are the type of deals that Nashville could only expect from those teams in a sign and trade, and sign and trades aren't all that common these days. NY doesn't offer Krieder and MDZ unless they're sure Nash is resigning. Ditto EDM offering the 1st overall.

That was essentially my point, that any eventual deal for Weber would've been for far less than the Couturier+Schenn++ asking price that Poile set, because without the offer-sheet, you're trading for 1 guaranteed year of Shea Weber. Which isn't worth anywhere near the prices you're throwing out.

By offer-sheeting Shea Weber, we put Nashville in a golden situation. We essentially upped the price of a trade because now, we were trading for 14 years of Shea Weber instead of just 1. Those 14 years are worth a ton more and Poile knows it, which is why the price was Couturier + Schenn ++. And when we refused to take that offer, Poile easily matched our sheet and if he ever does trade Weber in the future, he will get an absolute king's ransom.

By offer sheeting Shea Weber, we actually strengthened Poile's bargaining position. Paul Holmgren took a stupid gamble that Nashville didn't have the finances to match our front-loaded offer sheet. It was an incredibly dumb gamble because as a GM, it's your job to damn well know whether or not another team has the financial resources to do something. And he got it wrong. When it became clear that Homer had made a mis-step and Nashville had plenty of cash to pay Weber, it became a matter of us either paying out the wazoo for Weber, or Nashville retaining him. And Nashville retained him. Thus we lost any chance whatsoever of acquiring the #1 d-man in the NHL.

When we could've just waited a year for him to hit unrestricted free agency. Like I said, Homer got impatient and it cost this franchise dearly.

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01-31-2013, 11:48 AM
  #209
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it doesnt matter, pronger got traded from stl to the oilers and got them to the cup finals he was never in the playoffs in that time, he got traded to the ducks and won a cup, he got traded to the flyers and got them to the cup finals, i think defense is the most important player in defense and offense, especially when you need a big shot from the point on the pp, the flyers dont have it.

colorado got blake and bourque and won the cup, Detroit got larry murphy and they won cups twice, plus brad stuart in 08 and Jiri Slegr in 2002 and won it.
Yeah Blake and Bourque didn't win squat without Forsberg and Sakic, but Sakic and Forsberg won without them. Murphy and Slegr didn't win without Yzerman and Federov. So maybe depth at center is the key. I can name two teams without great defensemen that won the cup in the last 10 years: Carolina and Pittsburgh. They had depth at center though.

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01-31-2013, 11:49 AM
  #210
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Yeah Blake and Bourque didn't win squat without Forsberg and Sakic, but Sakic and Forsberg won without them. Murphy and Slegr didn't win without Yzerman and Federov. So maybe depth at center is the key. I can name two teams without great defensemen that won the cup in the last 10 years: Carolina and Pittsburgh. They had depth at center though.
Kris Letang says hi?

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01-31-2013, 11:51 AM
  #211
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Kris Letang says hi?
I wouldn't label him as a "great" defenseman, especially during their Cup run when he was about 22.

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01-31-2013, 12:00 PM
  #212
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i just think this team needs a new direction on how to build a cup team because i just think homer outsmarted himself just like andy reid ever since he traded gagne, the team went downhill after that, he was the big piece for this team.

homer fans wont admit that maybe he made a big mistakes with the current players.

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01-31-2013, 12:02 PM
  #213
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What is with the obsession with Shea Weber? How many cups did he win? How many conference championships has he been to? If all that was required to win a Stanley Cup was "#1 defenseman", Nashville must have won the last three Stanley Cups with two #1 defensemen and an all world goalie, which is normally the fans' obsession.
It is not the only thing you need, but it certainly seems like #1 defenseman is a requirement...

LA had Doughty last year
Bruins had Chara the year before
Blackhawks had Keith
Pens had Gonchar who at the time was probably borderline #1
Red Wings had Lidstrom for their multiple
Ducks had Pronger (and Neids)
Devils had Stevens when they won their multiple
Lightning had Dan Boyle
The Avs had Ray Borque

I could keep going. The only team that I can remember that didn't have a true #1 is Carolina and that's just because I can't remember anyone on that team. There could have been someone or maybe not, don't remember. Even if you don't consider Gonchar a true #1 on the Pens, that is two out of the last whatever and if you go back further I am sure you will find a true #1 on nearly every cup winning team in the last 20 years or more. Getting Weber would not guarantee anything, but it is pretty clear that having a true #1 isn't just some weird coincidence shared by all these Cup winning teams...

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01-31-2013, 12:03 PM
  #214
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Carle's ability to move the puck is missed, but let's not go overboard. We'd be in the same position with him here.
You mean the position of having lots of fans believing the composition of the team has changed so much that the coach has to go because his system doesn't fit the personnel? And now there's a 200 post thread about his firing after 7 games? We'd be in that position?

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01-31-2013, 12:05 PM
  #215
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You can come up with a lot of potential deals, but you're forgetting one thing: Shea Weber has to like his eventual destination or else he's not going to sign long-term there. He didn't want to play in NY because he didn't want to live in Manhattan, hence no long term contract (I can link you to the comments by his agent if you'd like). Vancouver, his home town, didn't/doesn't have the cap room. That's two of the biggest players for Weber right there out of the bidding. And the deals you're offering are the type of deals that Nashville could only expect from those teams in a sign and trade, and sign and trades aren't all that common these days. NY doesn't offer Krieder and MDZ unless they're sure Nash is resigning. Ditto EDM offering the 1st overall.

That was essentially my point, that any eventual deal for Weber would've been for far less than the Couturier+Schenn++ asking price that Poile set, because without the offer-sheet, you're trading for 1 guaranteed year of Shea Weber. Which isn't worth anywhere near the prices you're throwing out.

By offer-sheeting Shea Weber, we put Nashville in a golden situation. We essentially upped the price of a trade because now, we were trading for 14 years of Shea Weber instead of just 1. Those 14 years are worth a ton more and Poile knows it, which is why the price was Couturier + Schenn ++. And when we refused to take that offer, Poile easily matched our sheet and if he ever does trade Weber in the future, he will get an absolute king's ransom.

By offer sheeting Shea Weber, we actually strengthened Poile's bargaining position. Paul Holmgren took a stupid gamble that Nashville didn't have the finances to match our front-loaded offer sheet. It was an incredibly dumb gamble because as a GM, it's your job to damn well know whether or not another team has the financial resources to do something. And he got it wrong. When it became clear that Homer had made a mis-step and Nashville had plenty of cash to pay Weber, it became a matter of us either paying out the wazoo for Weber, or Nashville retaining him. And Nashville retained him. Thus we lost any chance whatsoever of acquiring the #1 d-man in the NHL.

When we could've just waited a year for him to hit unrestricted free agency. Like I said, Homer got impatient and it cost this franchise dearly.
This is entirely speculation. Maybe he takes a hometown discount to live in Vancouver. Maybe Vancouver trades away salary to fit him. Maybe the offer sheet brought the price down. Maybe the price before the offersheet was Giroux. You have no idea if Edmonton would have offered the #1 for one year or not. Same with New York. Alls we know is that Nashville asked for Schenn and Couturier plus other things. You are arguing your own speculation as fact against Holmgren.

Nashville didn't have plenty of cash to pay Weber. They receive revenue sharing every year. They paid Weber with the owners personal cash. It was a pretty good gamble that a money losing franchise wouldn't do that.

We have lost are chance at Weber but not any chance of over getting a #1 defenseman. How bought they do it the old fashion way and draft and develop one. Or perhaps they can do your Schenn Voracek and a 1st deal again since no one will want to pay the cap penalties on the back end of that contract.

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01-31-2013, 12:19 PM
  #216
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It is not the only thing you need, but it certainly seems like #1 defenseman is a requirement...

LA had Doughty last year
Bruins had Chara the year before
Blackhawks had Keith
Pens had Gonchar who at the time was probably borderline #1
Red Wings had Lidstrom for their multiple
Ducks had Pronger (and Neids)
Devils had Stevens when they won their multiple
Lightning had Dan Boyle
The Avs had Ray Borque

I could keep going. The only team that I can remember that didn't have a true #1 is Carolina and that's just because I can't remember anyone on that team. There could have been someone or maybe not, don't remember. Even if you don't consider Gonchar a true #1 on the Pens, that is two out of the last whatever and if you go back further I am sure you will find a true #1 on nearly every cup winning team in the last 20 years or more. Getting Weber would not guarantee anything, but it is pretty clear that having a true #1 isn't just some weird coincidence shared by all these Cup winning teams...
Gonchar and Boyle are on par with Timmonen. Kris Letang was a healthy scratch for parts of that year so mentioning him is disingenuous. Also Ray Bourque was like 40 at the time and the Aves had already won without him. You can win without a #1 defensemen just like Chicago proved you can win with crappy goaltending. There really is no concrete formula. I would say it is 90% luck: luck in matchups, luck in injuries, luck in the bounce of the puck in overtime.

You want a better correlation with those teams up there: except Detroit, all of them sucked to get high draft picks and superstar players. The Flyers are victims of their own impatience with sucking. They spend to the cap and trade away just enough to compete every year. Maybe sucking this year is just what the doctor ordered.

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01-31-2013, 12:25 PM
  #217
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01-31-2013, 12:33 PM
  #218
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Just to be clear, here are all the possible eventualities and what my reactions to them will be:

#1. The team plays well. Everyone's happy. We all toast each other and laughingly remark on how silly we all acted after only a couple of games.

#2. We suck but no one gets fired. I won't point fingers. You can't win 'em all.

#3. We suck and Homer gets fired. I nod my head.

#4. We suck and Lavi gets fired. Hell shall be unleashed. I will go immediately from liking Homer a whole lot, to despising every fiber of his being. I'll find every instance of him online, twitter, facebook, email, intelius, ussearch, everything. Make 10 fake accounts a day, and incessantly bombard him with the most heinously vile pictures ever taken, and will not stop until the day he's run out of Philly with torches and pitchforks preferably drunk and divorced and broken and crying and praying for God to save him from this torture.

OK that was a bit of an exaggeration. But yeah, if Lavi's fired early in 2013, Homer can go jump in a lake. (that'll learn 'im!)

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01-31-2013, 12:37 PM
  #219
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Gonchar and Boyle are on par with Timmonen. Kris Letang was a healthy scratch for parts of that year so mentioning him is disingenuous. Also Ray Bourque was like 40 at the time and the Aves had already won without him. You can win without a #1 defensemen just like Chicago proved you can win with crappy goaltending. There really is no concrete formula. I would say it is 90% luck: luck in matchups, luck in injuries, luck in the bounce of the puck in overtime.

You want a better correlation with those teams up there: except Detroit, all of them sucked to get high draft picks and superstar players. The Flyers are victims of their own impatience with sucking. They spend to the cap and trade away just enough to compete every year. Maybe sucking this year is just what the doctor ordered.
if the flyers had pronger and another defensemen in the devils series last year, they probably would have gone all the way. defensemen are difference makers offense and defense

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01-31-2013, 12:39 PM
  #220
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We sucked in the wrong year last time.
Also...how awesome would it have been to have had the lockout in 2010-2011? Imagine that Flyers team playing in a shortened season.

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01-31-2013, 01:27 PM
  #221
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Washington is having a rough start too, we get them tomorrow on the tail end of a back to back while we had 2 days off. if this team comes out looking confused tired and out of sorts against a team that plays the night before then there is definatly a problem on the coaching end of things.

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01-31-2013, 01:30 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Gonchar and Boyle are on par with Timmonen. Kris Letang was a healthy scratch for parts of that year so mentioning him is disingenuous.
I think you are really underrating Dan Boyle circa 2003-04. The guy was a pretty solid and legit #1 defenseman. Right now I wouldn't consider him a #1, but Dan Boyle in his prime was very much a #1 defenseman. Gonchar I can understand your argument, but I never mentioend Kris Letang anywhere in my post.

Quote:
Also Ray Bourque was like 40 at the time and the Aves had already won without him.
Ray Borque may have been old, but he put up 59 points in the regular season and 10 in the postseason, and was very much still a top defender. And yes, they won without him, but I don't see how a Stanley Cup from five years earlier negates the fact that Borque was a #1 defender. That Cup they won in 96 they really didn't have the true #1 that I am talking about so you can add that to the small list of teams without a true #1, but that 96 Cup doesn't change anything about the 2001 Cup.

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You can win without a #1 defensemen just like Chicago proved you can win with crappy goaltending. There really is no concrete formula. I would say it is 90% luck: luck in matchups, luck in injuries, luck in the bounce of the puck in overtime.
You are absolutely right you can win without a true #1 defenseman or without a stud goalie. The problem is those are the exceptions, not the rules. Look back from 2012 to 1992 at the Cup winners. The only teams I can see without a legit #1 in those 20 years are the Canes, the Pens I'll give you, the Avs in '96, and maybe the Canadiens in 1993 (depending on how you feel about a young Eric Desjardins). So that is four teams without a legit #1 in the last 20 years (and this doesn't even take into account how the game has changed over the last 20 years). Yes it is possible to win without a true #1, I agree completely. But, as I said in my initial post, a true #1 is not a guarantee that you will win a Cup, but it looks like not having one is the exception, not the rule.

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You want a better correlation with those teams up there: except Detroit, all of them sucked to get high draft picks and superstar players. The Flyers are victims of their own impatience with sucking. They spend to the cap and trade away just enough to compete every year. Maybe sucking this year is just what the doctor ordered.
That really is not relevant to the discussion of whether or not a legit #1 defenseman is needed for a Cup win.

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01-31-2013, 01:32 PM
  #223
CS
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Originally Posted by kimmofan44 View Post
Washington is having a rough start too, we get them tomorrow on the tail end of a back to back while we had 2 days off. if this team comes out looking confused tired and out of sorts against a team that plays the night before then there is definatly a problem on the coaching end of things.
I'll be attending a Flyers/Caps game in DC.

I apologize in advance for the loss.

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Old
01-31-2013, 02:11 PM
  #224
zarley zelepukin
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
You want a better correlation with those teams up there: except Detroit, all of them sucked to get high draft picks and superstar players. The Flyers are victims of their own impatience with sucking. They spend to the cap and trade away just enough to compete every year. Maybe sucking this year is just what the doctor ordered.
Who did the Bruins suck to get? Only Seguin was a really high pick and he wasn't exactly a superstar the year they won the Cup. Even with the Ducks- Perry and Getzlaf were picked in the second of the first round. Lupul and Smid were high picks that went in the Pronger trade but they weren't that high. Point is, you don't need to completely suck to get the backbone of a Cup champion, though it helps.

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01-31-2013, 02:12 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you are really underrating Dan Boyle circa 2003-04. The guy was a pretty solid and legit #1 defenseman. Right now I wouldn't consider him a #1, but Dan Boyle in his prime was very much a #1 defenseman. Gonchar I can understand your argument, but I never mentioend Kris Letang anywhere in my post.



Ray Borque may have been old, but he put up 59 points in the regular season and 10 in the postseason, and was very much still a top defender. And yes, they won without him, but I don't see how a Stanley Cup from five years earlier negates the fact that Borque was a #1 defender. That Cup they won in 96 they really didn't have the true #1 that I am talking about so you can add that to the small list of teams without a true #1, but that 96 Cup doesn't change anything about the 2001 Cup.



You are absolutely right you can win without a true #1 defenseman or without a stud goalie. The problem is those are the exceptions, not the rules. Look back from 2012 to 1992 at the Cup winners. The only teams I can see without a legit #1 in those 20 years are the Canes, the Pens I'll give you, the Avs in '96, and maybe the Canadiens in 1993 (depending on how you feel about a young Eric Desjardins). So that is four teams without a legit #1 in the last 20 years (and this doesn't even take into account how the game has changed over the last 20 years). Yes it is possible to win without a true #1, I agree completely. But, as I said in my initial post, a true #1 is not a guarantee that you will win a Cup, but it looks like not having one is the exception, not the rule.



That really is not relevant to the discussion of whether or not a legit #1 defenseman is needed for a Cup win.

your right and it's not matter of having the best defensemen in world, it's matter of what the defensemen can do for your team besides play defense, pronger made this team better not because of defense but he was an offensive threat, which the flyers dont have, which is hurting the offense right now.

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