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Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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01-31-2013, 07:45 AM
  #376
Canadiens1958
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Paul Henderson

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Here's my problem with your argument: the nature of the goaltending position places a higher emphasis on ONE shot than any other position. Marcel Dionne doesn't get a black mark on his statline every time he takes a shot that doesn't go in; goaltenders get one every time they miss. And saying that it's only one shot is bogus, Mike.
Paul Henderson says hi. A slightly above average NHL and WHA winger no player gets more recognition for one shot / one goal than he does. Yet that one goal never damaged Tretiak's legacy.

Mud Bruneteau / Lorne Chabot 1936 longest overtime game in the playoffs. Throw in Normie Smith. Mud Bruneteau - the goal scorer, is known forever though he was a very average thirties/early forties winger. Normie Smith a promising goalie got the shutout and a boost to a career that was arguably cut short by Jack Adams. Lorne Chabot was the losing goalie. One shot denied him a defining moment to his career. Maroons win and he has the moment that often separates a player from the HHOF.

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01-31-2013, 11:13 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
qpq- That's fair. And while I don't have time to properly respond at the moment. I'll say that those goalies would not be precluded from things in such a fashion like Thomas would have been...I mean, maybe Roy goes from 1 to 3 or something...2...but Thomas wouldn't have gotten into the top-50 I wouldn't think...
Given the type of consensus we had on Roy and Hasek being the top two goaltenders (20/24 for Roy; 19/24 for Hasek) and the lack of consensus we had on everything after the first four goaltenders were selected, I believe Roy dropping from #1 to #3 for not winning the 1986 Stanley Cup and Hasek likely dropping from #2 to #4-7 for either not winning his only Stanley Cup or not making it to the 1998 Gold Medal Game is probably as significant as Tim Thomas falling from #37 (which only 5/21 voters believed him to be) to somewhere else in the Top 50 with his two Vezinas.


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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Paul Henderson says hi. A slightly above average NHL and WHA winger no player gets more recognition for one shot / one goal than he does. Yet that one goal never damaged Tretiak's legacy.

Mud Bruneteau / Lorne Chabot 1936 longest overtime game in the playoffs. Throw in Normie Smith. Mud Bruneteau - the goal scorer, is known forever though he was a very average thirties/early forties winger. Normie Smith a promising goalie got the shutout and a boost to a career that was arguably cut short by Jack Adams. Lorne Chabot was the losing goalie. One shot denied him a defining moment to his career. Maroons win and he has the moment that often separates a player from the HHOF.
I don't think these trivia answers really fit into the nature of what we were discussing. No one is going to get in a huff after the 1972 Summit Series ends in a tie and say, "Well where the heck was Paul Henderson?! He should have scored a third-straight game winner! He's a lesser hockey player for not doing it." Tim Thomas is no trivia answer; he has two seasons with 100 Vezina and Hart voting points, so he wasn't coming out of nowhere to make the only save worth remembering in his career on Andrei Kostitsyn by way of Seidenberg's body. There is no goal or save so good or timely that it will make someone a top player: Pietrangelo, Henderson, McLean, Bruneteau, Caron, Malik. You remember their names for doing the unbelievable, but you don't lose sight of the fact that they didn't have the type of elite careers worth discussing on our Top 70 and Top 40 lists.

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01-31-2013, 11:44 AM
  #378
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Tim Thomas

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post

I don't think these trivia answers really fit into the nature of what we were discussing. No one is going to get in a huff after the 1972 Summit Series ends in a tie and say, "Well where the heck was Paul Henderson?! He should have scored a third-straight game winner! He's a lesser hockey player for not doing it." Tim Thomas is no trivia answer; he has two seasons with 100 Vezina and Hart voting points, so he wasn't coming out of nowhere to make the only save worth remembering in his career on Andrei Kostitsyn by way of Seidenberg's body. There is no goal or save so good or timely that it will make someone a top player: Pietrangelo, Henderson, McLean, Bruneteau, Caron, Malik. You remember their names for doing the unbelievable, but you don't lose sight of the fact that they didn't have the type of elite careers worth discussing on our Top 70 and Top 40 lists.
Bolded describes Tim Thomas perfectly. 10+ seasons in the hockey hinterlands then a couple of interesting seasons or a playoff run. Then Brian Elliott comes along and puts things in perspective.

Point is flip Thomas' career 180 degrees, a few good NHL seasons at the start of a career followed by mediocre years or disappearing from the NHL and you are looking at Roger Crozier, Ron Hextall, Don Edwards types.

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01-31-2013, 12:35 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bolded describes Tim Thomas perfectly. 10+ seasons in the hockey hinterlands then a couple of interesting seasons or a playoff run. Then Brian Elliott comes along and puts things in perspective.

Point is flip Thomas' career 180 degrees, a few good NHL seasons at the start of a career followed by mediocre years or disappearing from the NHL and you are looking at Roger Crozier, Ron Hextall, Don Edwards types.
Roger Crozier who was never close to a second 1st Team All-Star after his rookie season? Ron Hextall who barely won his and was never close to a second Vezina/1st Team All-Star? Don Edwards who was never close to any 1st Team All-Star?

Crozier and Edwards having losing playoff records. Hextall is barely .500. Crozier won his Conn Smythe in a losing effort despite Worsley posting a .931 to Crozier's .915 and facing more shots per game. Hextall won his Conn Smythe in a losing effort because despite allowing at least 3 goals in 12 of his final 13 playoff games, he kept things close against Edmonton. None of them won a Stanley Cup.

Tim Thomas has double the Vezina/1st Team All-Star selections, a Conn Smythe/Stanley Cup run that saw him knock out the top-two offensive teams in the Eastern Conference and dominate the top-offensive team in the league in the Final, and a second strong playoff in 2009. How exactly are they his type, and where is Brian Elliott's decent playoff run that supposedly puts Tim Thomas in perspective? Elliott is no different than a Cristobal Huet or a Vesa Toskala but in a year with even more inflated save percentage numbers, and if you haven't noticed, those three don't exactly have Vezinas (plural) now, do they?

Which two-time Vezina/1st Team All-Star goaltender isn't on our list? Surprise, they all are. The only ones with even a single selection that didn't make it up for vote are Ryan Miller, Evgeni Nabokov, Jose Theodore, Olaf Kolzig, Jim Carey, Pelle Lindbergh, Pete Peeters, Roger Crozier, Johnny Mowers, and Normie Smith. Of those ten, only Mowers and Smith won a Stanley Cup, and they played less NHL hockey than Tim Thomas. Considering Thomas has double the regular season award recognition, what makes you believe the phrase "didn't have the type of elite careers worth discussing on our Top 70 and Top 40 lists" describes Tim Thomas perfectly?

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01-31-2013, 01:03 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Which two-time Vezina/1st Team All-Star goaltender isn't on our list? Surprise, they all are. The only ones with even a single selection that didn't make it up for vote are Ryan Miller, Evgeni Nabokov, Jose Theodore, Olaf Kolzig, Jim Carey, Pelle Lindbergh, Pete Peeters, Roger Crozier, Johnny Mowers, and Normie Smith.
Crozier - 53
Smith - 56
Kolzig - 61
Nabokov - 62
Peeters - 66
Miller - 68
Lindbergh - 71
Mowers - 74
Theodore - 79


Carey is the only one the board didn't judge top-80. It's not unreasonable to think that if Crozier, Smith, Kolzig or Nabokov had won a Cup and Conn Smythe, or simply had another great season, that they would have rocketed past Thomas on the basis of longevity.

I think the standards are more consistent than they're being given credit for. Thomas had the all-time great seasons that are normally associated with goalies ranked much higher, and was indeed penalized for his lack of longevity. Had the goalies behind him matched his peak, he wouldn't have made the list at all because of his short NHL career. But they didn't, so why would we rank them ahead?

I'm curious whether Mike or C1958 (or anyone else who agrees with them, and I'm sure there are some who aren't speaking up) thinks we should rank Thomas behind Jose Theodore on the basis that Theodore maintained a starting spot for a long time and had one great year.

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01-31-2013, 01:55 PM
  #381
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Key Question

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Crozier - 53
Smith - 56
Kolzig - 61
Nabokov - 62
Peeters - 66
Miller - 68
Lindbergh - 71
Mowers - 74
Theodore - 79


Carey is the only one the board didn't judge top-80. It's not unreasonable to think that if Crozier, Smith, Kolzig or Nabokov had won a Cup and Conn Smythe, or simply had another great season, that they would have rocketed past Thomas on the basis of longevity.

I think the standards are more consistent than they're being given credit for. Thomas had the all-time great seasons that are normally associated with goalies ranked much higher, and was indeed penalized for his lack of longevity. Had the goalies behind him matched his peak, he wouldn't have made the list at all because of his short NHL career. But they didn't, so why would we rank them ahead?

I'm curious whether Mike or C1958 (or anyone else who agrees with them, and I'm sure there are some who aren't speaking up) thinks we should rank Thomas behind Jose Theodore on the basis that Theodore maintained a starting spot for a long time and had one great year.
The key question continues to be avoided. Why was Tim Thomas a nomad in hockey's hinterland for 10+ seasons?

Comments were made about Thomas' weak skating, puckhandling but these get dismissed as inconsequential even though they precluded his career from advancing and surface at times during his present NHL run. This criticism cannot be made about other SC, Smythe, Hart or Vezina winning goalies. Jose Theodore did not have difficulties skating or puckhandling.

Rank for Thomas should be around/after Normie Smith - 2 SCs, 1 first AST, 1 Vezina, then shafted by Jack Adams, towards Theodore. Normie Smith accomplished more than Thomas in less time.

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01-31-2013, 02:00 PM
  #382
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The key question continues to be avoided. Why was Tim Thomas a nomad in hockey's hinterland for 10+ seasons?
If it was coaches prejudiced against his particular style of netminding, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

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01-31-2013, 02:12 PM
  #383
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If it was coaches prejudiced against his particular style of netminding, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened.
Suggest a few other goalies that suffered from a coaches prejudice so that your comment may have context.

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01-31-2013, 02:14 PM
  #384
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Suggest a few other goalies that suffered from a coaches prejudice so that your comment may have context.
I figured that Dominik Hasek would be obvious.

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01-31-2013, 02:33 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Rank for Thomas should be around/after Normie Smith - 2 SCs, 1 first AST, 1 Vezina, then shafted by Jack Adams, towards Theodore. Normie Smith accomplished more than Thomas in less time.
That second Stanley Cup is worth more than Thomas' second Vezina and second 1st Team All-Star selection?

In what universe does playing the first round in a Stanley Cup playoff and sitting on the sideline with an injury while Earl Robertson plays the entire Finals and wins the series with back-to-back shutouts qualify as accomplishing more than a second Vezina/1st Team selection?

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01-31-2013, 02:33 PM
  #386
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Perhaps

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I figured that Dominik Hasek would be obvious.
Perhaps, but another team quickly stepped up to obtain his services in a trade. Yet it took awhile for Hasek to establish himself in Buffalo.

Jacques Plante in Montreal with Dick Irvin Sr could serve as another example but that was quickly overcome under Toe Blake.

Neither situation lasted 10+ seasons thru multiple organizations and coaches.Thomas bounced around a few organizations and had multiple coaches. Beyond the University of Vermont he did not get many games per season nor did he stick around for long with a team:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thomati01.html

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01-31-2013, 02:43 PM
  #387
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Parade

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That second Stanley Cup is worth more than Thomas' second Vezina and second 1st Team All-Star selection?

In what universe does playing the first round in a Stanley Cup playoff and sitting on the sideline with an injury while Earl Robertson plays the entire Finals and wins the series with back-to-back shutouts qualify as accomplishing more than a second Vezina/1st Team selection?
In a universe where a parade is held to celebrate SC victories, while 1st AST and Vezinas are greeted with .......

If Normie Smith does not shine in the first round, winning the fifth game while injured the rest does not happen.

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01-31-2013, 03:02 PM
  #388
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In a universe where a parade is held to celebrate SC victories, while 1st AST and Vezinas are greeted with .......
Oh, that's right. So Ilya Bryzgalov accomplished more with his Normie-esque three wins in the 2007 playoffs than Martin Brodeur accomplished in the 2007 regular season, yes?

I really hope that you greeted goaltenders with Vezinas/All-Stars selections with more than "......." in this project.

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01-31-2013, 03:04 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Perhaps, but another team quickly stepped up to obtain his services in a trade. Yet it took awhile for Hasek to establish himself in Buffalo.

Jacques Plante in Montreal with Dick Irvin Sr could serve as another example but that was quickly overcome under Toe Blake.

Neither situation lasted 10+ seasons thru multiple organizations and coaches.Thomas bounced around a few organizations and had multiple coaches. Beyond the University of Vermont he did not get many games per season nor did he stick around for long with a team:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thomati01.html
54 games out of 60 in SM-Liiga is not many games per season?

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01-31-2013, 03:22 PM
  #390
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2004-05 Season

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54 games out of 60 in SM-Liiga is not many games per season?
As a 30 year old, 4 NHL career games, after two seasons as a tandem in Providence. The Boston Bruins preferred Hannu Toivonen to Thomas in Providence:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000312005.html

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01-31-2013, 03:22 PM
  #391
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The key question continues to be avoided. Why was Tim Thomas a nomad in hockey's hinterland for 10+ seasons?
I'm pretty sure I addressed that question 2 or 3 times during the voting rounds.

Thomas played college hockey until age 22, where he led the nation in save percentage and was a two-time All American. Interestingly enough, the scoring star on his team was another guy that defied all expectations in the NHL in Martin St. Louis.

Age 23, Thomas starts his pro career with brief stints in the ECHL and IHL, which was normal for a newly-drafted goalie at that time. He ditched the North American leagues for a starting spot on HIFK Helsinki. Other players on that team: Olli Jokinen, Christian Ruuttu, Kimmo Timonen, Brian Rafalski, Jarkko Ruutu, Niklas Backstrom. Thomas' save percentage: .947. Not bad, ya know.

Following season, Thomas splits his season between HIFK (which had added Toni Lydman) and a second shot at the AHL in Hamilton. He had signed a new contract with the Oilers, thus the trip to Hamilton. At this point he is still only 24, young for a goalie, and in the career phase where starts are precious for development purposes. He chose not to stick around in a messy goalie situation in the Edmonton system.

Following season, age 25 and coming into the age where you expect starting-level performance, Thomas signs with an absolutely rotten Detroit Vipers team in the IHL. Granted his numbers were bad, but that team went through 5 goalies and posted a 22-52-0-8 record. The team folded following the next season.

--------------- this is the point in a goalie's career where I would say youth is no longer a factor --------------

Age 26, and basically cut loose without an organization to land in, Thomas goes back to Europe for a season in the Swedish Elitserien, posting a .917.

Next season, he signs with the Bruins but is the third wheel in competition with Andrew Raycroft and Kay Whitmore simply for a spot in Providence. Byron Dafoe is a well established fixture in Boston by this time. Seeking starts, Thomas goes to Finland puts up a .925 in their elite league. Goalies posting similar numbers include a handful of future NHL'ers: Kari Lehtonen, Antero Niitymaki, Frederik Norrena.



Now, stop here and consider the level of success this guy has had outside the North American pro system so far. He has posted seasons of .947, .925, .917, .917 against European elites, which isn't quite the "hinterlands" of hockey. If he posts those numbers in the AHL, somebody is giving him an NHL contract. But his NA pro experience consists of three tryouts, one season on a miserable IHL team and a couple of looks during NHL training camps.


Following season, age 28, Thomas finally gets to be a tandem goalie in Providence. We are in 2003, and the ideal NHL goalie is JS Giguere. Andrew Raycroft, Thomas' tandem partner, is a hot young prospect. The Bruins are panicking about their goalie situation, signing washed-up veterans to keep Raycroft firmly in Providence and away from that hot mess of a defense. Thomas posts a mediocre .906 in Providence, but curiously comes up to Boston and improves to a .907 in his first four NHL games.

At this point, you'd think Thomas would be assured at least a look in Boston the following season. But no, the organization signs Felix Potvin to back up Raycroft during his much-anticipated rookie season. Raycroft wins the Calder. Thomas stays in Providence and puts up a pedestrian .941 .... wait ....

At this point, you'd think Thomas would be absolutely guaranteed some kind of look in an NHL training camp. But wait, it's 2004 and time for a full-season lockout. Thomas packs his bags for Helsinki and posts a .946, breaks the shutout record, wins the MVP trophy, and does this in a league that features 8 other current or future NHL starting goaltenders, including Raycroft who suddenly doesn't look so hot...

Unbelievably, Thomas returned to North America to find himself banished back to the AHL behind Raycroft and Boston's shiny new toy, Hannu Toivonen. It took till midseason with both of those guys hurt and Raycroft sitting on a .879 for Thomas to finally get a legitimate shot at the NHL. And I think we all know where the story picks up from there.


Now, I don't expect anyone to read that entire retrospective on his career. Just do me a favor and pick, say, 2 or 3 paragraphs to skim. Do you see any indication that Thomas didn't have NHL potential in those 2 or 3 paragraphs? What caused him to stick in Europe or the minors -- his personal play, or the specific NHL/AHL/IHL systems that took him on? How many times does it seem that he sent up a flare to the hockey world, only to be ignored and shuffled off to the next location? Is his extensive non-NHL career an indictment of Tim Thomas' ability to play goal, or a commentary on how fickle and irrational hockey executives can be when making personnel decisions?

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01-31-2013, 03:30 PM
  #392
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As a 30 year old, 4 NHL career games, after two seasons as a tandem in Providence. The Boston Bruins preferred Hannu Toivonen to Thomas in Providence:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000312005.html
That proves the Boston management's idiocy more than anything else (and supports my prejudice theory pretty well - if I suggest that management was prejudiced against him, and your counterargument is that they didn't play him very much, then thank you very much).

Tarheel's synopsis is a good one - you should read it (I did read the whole thing, tarheel ).

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01-31-2013, 03:49 PM
  #393
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Tim Thomas

Basically, no one has disputed the weak skating and puckhandling issue BUT a third issue has been raised - adaptability or specifically the ability to integrate a team or organization. A player or in this case a goalie has to have the ability to recognize the needs and opportunities available at a specific time and place. Apply his specific talents to the specific talents and needs of a team and an organization.

Some goalies were able to do this very quickly - Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo. By accounts to date, Tim Thomas was not able to do this early in his career. Eventually he adapted.

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01-31-2013, 03:53 PM
  #394
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Basically, no one has disputed the weak skating and puckhandling issue BUT a third issue has been raised - adaptability or specifically the ability to integrate a team or organization. A player or in this case a goalie has to have the ability to recognize the needs and opportunities available at a specific time and place. Apply his specific talents to the specific talents and needs of a team and an organization.

Some goalies were able to do this very quickly - Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo. By accounts to date, Tim Thomas was not able to do this early in his career. Eventually he adapted.
What's the point of us addressing your issues, when you just keep changing the subject each time?

Can we go back and finish one thing before you move on to another?

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01-31-2013, 04:13 PM
  #395
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What's the point of us addressing your issues, when you just keep changing the subject each time?

Can we go back and finish one thing before you move on to another?
I would like to echo this, because I'm still not satisfied with the answer I received in regard to Normie Smith's second Stanley Cup being a greater accomplishment than a Vezina/1st Team selection in the 30-team era when Normie Smith's "accomplishment" hinged upon how teammate Earl Robertson played in net during the Stanley Cup Final (which if I recall, was so good that Norris wrote him a check for $600).

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01-31-2013, 05:03 PM
  #396
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Normie Smith 1937 SC

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I would like to echo this, because I'm still not satisfied with the answer I received in regard to Normie Smith's second Stanley Cup being a greater accomplishment than a Vezina/1st Team selection in the 30-team era when Normie Smith's "accomplishment" hinged upon how teammate Earl Robertson played in net during the Stanley Cup Final (which if I recall, was so good that Norris wrote him a check for $600).
Read the following:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6529%2C236854

Notice how in game five of their series against the Canadiens, the Red Wings had to use an injured Normie Smith, game 4, replaced by Jim Franks, - gone for the season injury. Smith responded with 111 minutes of one goal hockey allowing the Red Wings to make the finals.

Earl Robertson was not a teammate - regular IAHL goalie who went on to play a few seasons for the Americans that the Canadiens had no obligation to allow as a substitute. Rangers allowed Robertson who promptly gave up five goals in game 1 of the finals before the Red Wings adapted their game.

Without an injured Normie Smith in game 5 of the semi finals it is doubtful that the Wings win the SC.

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01-31-2013, 05:27 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Basically, no one has disputed the weak skating and puckhandling issue BUT a third issue has been raised - adaptability or specifically the ability to integrate a team or organization. A player or in this case a goalie has to have the ability to recognize the needs and opportunities available at a specific time and place. Apply his specific talents to the specific talents and needs of a team and an organization.

Some goalies were able to do this very quickly - Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo. By accounts to date, Tim Thomas was not able to do this early in his career. Eventually he adapted.
Yes, Martin Brodeur has surely shown his adaptability playing for the same team in a defense first system for 19 straight years. When did he ever have to adapt?

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01-31-2013, 05:30 PM
  #398
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Yes, Martin Brodeur has surely shown his adaptability playing for the same team in a defense first system for 19 straight years. When did he ever have to adapt?
Inaccurate.

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01-31-2013, 05:36 PM
  #399
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Inaccurate.
Yeah, I believe the Devils were MUCH more offensive minded under Larry Robinson and Pat Burns.

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01-31-2013, 05:37 PM
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Inaccurate.
I call.

In what way?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
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