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How Amazing Is It That Gretzky Has More Assists than Anyone Has Total Points?

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:28 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Colonel Klinkhammer View Post
I'm still trying to figure this out:

most people agree that what made gretzky better than other players was his brain, his vision on the ice....

in a video game, those things are the product of the dude holding the controller

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01-27-2013, 07:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
And the era he played in.
Too bad that no one else in the same era -- not even Mario Lemieux or anyone on his same team -- came REMOTELY close to his totals.

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01-27-2013, 07:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post
He can thank half of his records to the fact that Mario played under 1000 games in his career.
Then how come Gretzky still beat him in PPG average DESPITE playing about 7 (post prime) seasons longer? I would bring up Gretzky's PPG average over his first 915 games, but I don't want to embarrass Mario to such an extent Besides, Mario doesn't even crack the top 7 assist seasons (all belong to Gretzky) -- Mario's best assist season is tied for Gretzky's 8th worst. Points? Mario doesn't even crack the top 4 points seasons (all 4 belong to Gretzky). In fact, Mario doesn't even have the 6th best or 7th best -- Gretzky owns those too! Ok, ok, what about goals? Surely Lemieux has him beat there? But wait! Mario doesn't even have the 2nd best or even 3rd best! Wayne has the top 2, and Brett Hull has the 3rd. In fact, in the top 10 goal seasons of all time, Wayne Gretzky's name appears 4 times. Mario Lemieux's name appears once (don't worry, you are reading correctly. This is indeed true). And is it also true that Gretzky got to 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700 goals in less games than it took Mario as well?? My goodness, it is!

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01-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The year Nicholls was traded, Gretzky scored 26-70-96 in 73 at ES and 10-30-40 on the PP. I don't have the pre/post trade numbers, so I can't tell you exact stats.

Nicholls in LA posted 8-22-30 on the PP and 19-25-44 at ES in 47 games. Nicholls and Gretzky only played together on the PP, o if you assume Gretzky created all of Nicholls' points, then Gretzky had a pretty terrible year because it means he had 10 PP points in 26 games after Nicholls left, which is about 60% of Nicholls' PP pace during his time in LA that year. At ES, it's obvious Gretzky was scoring at a higher pace. But Nicholls was just under PPG, which is only about 10% above his peak seasons pre-Gretzky. And that can be explained by the simple fact of playing against second-tier competition.

How much of an effect did Gretzky really have on Nicholls? Let's look at Nicholls' two peak seasons and the PP/ES ratio. In his pre-Gretzky years, he scored 25 of 82 total goals on the PP, with 4 SH. With Gretzky, it was 28 of the same 82 total goals, with 0 SH. Almost identical. Nicholls had 36 PP assists of 115 in the two pre-Gretzky years, to 37 of 128 with Gretzky.

Conclusion: Wayne Gretzky did not make Bernie Nicholls a better scorer at all. Being on the second line BEHIND Wayne Gretzky made Bernie Nicholls score at a faster pace.
I think this statement is self contradictory. If Gretzky made Bernie Nicholls score at a faster pace -- albeit by taking the offensive pressure off him by taking his place on the 1st line -- this still constitutes as Gretzky making Nicholls a better scorer, does it not? With no Gretzky on his team, Nicholls does NOT score 150 points on that Kings team, not in a million years. Therefore, it's really a moot point.

Too add further, before Nicholls was traded to NY in January of the 1989-90 season, he was 3rd in NHL scoring! He finished the year with 112 points after the trade. No where near #2 and #3 (who were at 129 and and 127 points respectively). Conclusion: Wayne Gretzky did make Bernie Nicholls a better scorer (however directly or indirectly) -- and not just by a little bit, but by a substantial amount.

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01-28-2013, 11:19 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheGoalsLarger View Post
most people agree that what made gretzky better than other players was his brain, his vision on the ice....

in a video game, those things are the product of the dude holding the controller
Indeed.

Everyone knows that Gretzky was a very average skater, had an pretty accurate, but not very hard, shot and was nowhere near one of the strongest players in the league, but he had insane vision. No one saw the play quite like he did. Adam Oates was probably the closest, and he really wasn't close at all.

It's probably why people insist that Gretzky really wasn't that good, just lucky to be around so many star players. He really didn't have the tools. But man, he had one of the nicest (correction: the nicest) toolboxes ever.

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01-28-2013, 11:25 AM
  #81
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Only one that can come close in my mind is Messi.

The guy is scoring more goals/game than some other entire Spanish club teams.

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01-28-2013, 11:34 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post
He can thank half of his records to the fact that Mario played under 1000 games in his career.
Nope, Mario has half of his legacy to thank that he played less than 1000 games.

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01-28-2013, 11:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
No athlete ever dominated in any sport like Gretzky did, not even Wilt Chamberlain in basketball..

"Great One" is a great understatement..
While Gretzky is the best and most dominant hockey player in my book as well, that's just not true. Usually this shouldn't be a topic here since it's a hockey board, but statements like that need to be answered.

Athletes that dominated their sport more than Gretzky are for sure Alexander Karelin (wrestling, 13 year winning streak) and Jahangir Khan (squash, over 500 unbeaten matches in a row). Also there is this cricket player (forgot the name) with absurd dominance. And then there are several others with a case. Federer for sure; yeah, he gets beaten by Nadal and Djokovic, but from 2003-2006 no one was beating him and among his career records there are really impressive streaks. Even Usain Bolt has a case if you simply go with dominance over his peers.

I know, other sports, other rules, in some cases there are not the same numbers of competitors. But there are other athletes who were more dominant than Gretzky. Albeit I give Gretzky that he did it in our favorite sport and being the best in such a physically demanding sport has to count for something.


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01-28-2013, 11:44 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
Federer is being pounded by Murray and Djokovic. Maradona > Pele. Schumacher was beaten by Rosberg in the same car for pete's sake, for 3 straight years.. And even when he was at his best, Alonso beat him in a Renault...

So, no.
Hakkinen was better than Scumacher some years too. Michael actually was so dominant partly due to the diluted competition. He was still the best F1 driver all-time. Not just by the margin it would seem.

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01-28-2013, 12:01 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Nope, Mario has half of his legacy to thank that he played less than 1000 games.
I hear what you are saying and agree to a certain extent that ppg and the common perception of a player might be positively influenced by playing less games (see Lindros, Forsberg, Bure - which happen to be some of my favourite players; well, except Lindros), which is what you are getting at I suppose.

But in Marios case I don't think that this is necessarily the case. I mean, look what he did to the dead puck era-NHL after over three years of "retirement". It's not a reach to suggest that he would have come closer to some of Gretzky's records.

For the record: I think Gretzky was better and Lemieux wouldn't have broken more than a few - but it could very well be that some of his records wouldn't seem that untouchable if Lemieux had been healthier. But then we are in maybe-land, where it is nice and all - but it just doesn't/didn't happen which leaves Gretzky that dominant.

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01-28-2013, 12:42 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Harry Waters View Post
I hear what you are saying and agree to a certain extent that ppg and the common perception of a player might be positively influenced by playing less games (see Lindros, Forsberg, Bure - which happen to be some of my favourite players; well, except Lindros), which is what you are getting at I suppose.

But in Marios case I don't think that this is necessarily the case. I mean, look what he did to the dead puck era-NHL after over three years of "retirement". It's not a reach to suggest that he would have come closer to some of Gretzky's records.

For the record: I think Gretzky was better and Lemieux wouldn't have broken more than a few - but it could very well be that some of his records wouldn't seem that untouchable if Lemieux had been healthier. But then we are in maybe-land, where it is nice and all - but it just doesn't/didn't happen which leaves Gretzky that dominant.
You were right. I meant exactly the thing that PPG reduces over games played.

I used a hyperbole on purpose. Since i don't think Mario was legit threat for most Gretzky's records. Not due to talent difference but the fact that the game went trough rapid changes. I also hold Gretzky higher than Lemieux but the difference is not miles. Only forward who can at-least be mentioned in the same sentence as Gretzky is the #66.

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01-28-2013, 01:51 PM
  #87
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Art Ross Comparisons

Wayne Gretzky (10)
1980-81: 164 points, 2nd place Marcel Dionne with 135
1981-82: 212 points, 2nd place Mike Bossy with 147
1982-83: 196 points, 2nd place Peter Stastny with 124
1983-84: 205 points, 2nd place Paul Coffey with 126
1984-85: 208 points, 2nd place Jari Kurri with 135
1985-86: 215 points, 2nd place Mario Lemieux with 141
1986-87: 183 points, 2nd place Jari Kurri with 108
1989-90: 142 points, 2nd place Mark Messier with 129
1990-91: 163 points, 2nd place Brett Hull with 131
1993-94: 130 points, 2nd place Sergei Fedorov with 120

Won Art Ross on Average by 52.2 points

Mario Lemieux (6)
1987-88: 168 points, 2nd place Wayne Gretzky with 149
1988-89: 199 points, 2nd place Wayne Gretzky with 168
1991-92: 131 points, 2nd place Kevin Stevens with 123
1992-93: 160 points, 2nd place Pat LaFontaine with 148
1995-96: 161 points, 2nd place Jaromir Jagr with 149
1996-97: 122 points, 2nd place Teemu Selanne with 109

Won Art Ross on Average by 15.8 points

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01-28-2013, 02:28 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Harry Waters View Post
I hear what you are saying and agree to a certain extent that ppg and the common perception of a player might be positively influenced by playing less games (see Lindros, Forsberg, Bure - which happen to be some of my favourite players; well, except Lindros), which is what you are getting at I suppose.

But in Marios case I don't think that this is necessarily the case. I mean, look what he did to the dead puck era-NHL after over three years of "retirement". It's not a reach to suggest that he would have come closer to some of Gretzky's records.

For the record: I think Gretzky was better and Lemieux wouldn't have broken more than a few - but it could very well be that some of his records wouldn't seem that untouchable if Lemieux had been healthier. But then we are in maybe-land, where it is nice and all - but it just doesn't/didn't happen which leaves Gretzky that dominant.
One stat that no other team sport athlete can attest to:

9 MVPs in 10 years (including 8 straight).

And the year he missed one (1987-88) was due to missing 16 games. His PPG average was much higher than Lemieux's that year. That would have given him 10 straight MVPs (not to mention 8 straight Art Ross Trophies). Ridiculous domination to say the least.

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01-28-2013, 05:42 PM
  #89
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i'm told bonald bradman dominated cricket to an insane extent. i know nothing about that game though...(other than it looks pretty damn fun)

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01-28-2013, 06:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
No athlete ever dominated in any sport like Gretzky did, not even Wilt Chamberlain in basketball..

"Great One" is a great understatement..
Don Bradman. Statistically speaking, his batting average is probably the greatest achievement in a major sport.

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01-29-2013, 11:32 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by MasterofGrond View Post
Don Bradman. Statistically speaking, his batting average is probably the greatest achievement in a major sport.
You can say that without having to back it up because few here (incl. myself) have the cricket background to put this into context. Can you elaborate? Why are Bradman's accomplishments more dominant than Gretzky's?

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01-29-2013, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
You can say that without having to back it up because few here (incl. myself) have the cricket background to put this into context. Can you elaborate? Why are Bradman's accomplishments more dominant than Gretzky's?
Because Bradman was like putting 1985-86 Gretzky into the ECHL. He was that far above anyone who played cricket before, during, or after his time.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine...ry/474951.html

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01-29-2013, 09:31 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Indeed.

Everyone knows that Gretzky was a very average skater, had an pretty accurate, but not very hard, shot and was nowhere near one of the strongest players in the league, but he had insane vision. No one saw the play quite like he did. Adam Oates was probably the closest, and he really wasn't close at all.

It's probably why people insist that Gretzky really wasn't that good, just lucky to be around so many star players. He really didn't have the tools. But man, he had one of the nicest (correction: the nicest) toolboxes ever.
Gretzky had amazing tools; he had Coffey, Kurri, Messier, Anderson, Huddy, Lowe, Nicholls, Robitaille, Sandstrom, Granato, Carson, Duchesne, Blake, Zhitnik, Hull, Pronger, and more.

Sure, not a traditional set of tools. But he wasn't a traditional craftsman.

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01-31-2013, 10:45 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Everlasting View Post
Schumacher, Pelé, Jordan, Federer and some more...
- Schumi has tons of titles, but Henri Richard has the most Cups. Many argue there were better.

- Pele isn't nearly universally considered the best, quite rightly so. He never played in the best leagues.

- Federer only just recently beat Sampras' record in grandslams, and hasn't broken some others.

- Jordan...I know next to nothing about basketball, so no argument from me here.


ps. Karelin indeed is by far the most dominant athlete of all time.


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01-31-2013, 10:52 AM
  #95
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You actualy think that Maradonna was better than Pele?
Many do. Also Johan Cruyff has his say.

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01-31-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
- Schumi has tons of titles, but Henri Richard has the most Cups. Many argue there were better.
Schumacher dominated everything there is to dominate about F1. Perhaps you could make an argument for Fangio... toss in Senna and there's a race I'd like to see.

Quote:
- Federer only just recently beat Sampras' record in grandslams, and hasn't broken some others.
IMHO Agassi was better than Sampras. But neither were as good as Lendl. And I don't know that Federer is, either. Lendl was... absolutely unstoppable.

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01-31-2013, 11:57 AM
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I think this statement is self contradictory. If Gretzky made Bernie Nicholls score at a faster pace -- albeit by taking the offensive pressure off him by taking his place on the 1st line -- this still constitutes as Gretzky making Nicholls a better scorer, does it not? With no Gretzky on his team, Nicholls does NOT score 150 points on that Kings team, not in a million years. Therefore, it's really a moot point.

Too add further, before Nicholls was traded to NY in January of the 1989-90 season, he was 3rd in NHL scoring! He finished the year with 112 points after the trade. No where near #2 and #3 (who were at 129 and and 127 points respectively). Conclusion: Wayne Gretzky did make Bernie Nicholls a better scorer (however directly or indirectly) -- and not just by a little bit, but by a substantial amount.
Ok, I'll rephrase. Gretzky did not DIRECTLY make Nicholls a better scorer. Which is generally the implication when people say "Nicholls played with Gretzky".

Nicholls could have played those minutes behind John Cullen, and if he were against the same opposition with the same linemates at ES he'd have put up the same numbers. My point is that he didn't have Gretzky at ES. And beyond that, he still put up HHOF-worthy numbers OUTSIDE of those seasons. Make it a 90-100 point season in those two years, and he's still close to 1200 and better than PPG.

It's like the people in the Luongo threads who say "without a Cup, he's not getting into the Hall" and then the response is "one game determines the yes or no vote?"

What is it? Do 225 points over 126 games in Nicholls' career determine whether or not he's a Hall of Famer? Steve Shutt's in the Hall and never came close to what Nicholls did in goals or points. You know another guy with lower single-season career highs for goals and points, as well as career totals for assists and points? Mike Bossy.

But those guys, they didn't play with any Hart trophy winners or Art Ross winners in their career. Not once.

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01-31-2013, 12:33 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
- Schumi has tons of titles, but Henri Richard has the most Cups. Many argue there were better.

- Pele isn't nearly universally considered the best, quite rightly so. He never played in the best leagues.

- Federer only just recently beat Sampras' record in grandslams, and hasn't broken some others.

- Jordan...I know next to nothing about basketball, so no argument from me here.


ps. Karelin indeed is by far the most dominant athlete of all time.
Gretzky was definitely more dominant in his sport than MJ.

There is constant talk comparing LeBron to MJ (MJ is still the GOAT IMO), which would be akin to comparing Crosby to Gretzky (something you hardly ever see).

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01-31-2013, 01:23 PM
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Gretzky stats that always amaze me:

-Gretzky had a 5 season stretch where he scored 1,036 points in 394 games. 2.63 points per game.
-Mario's best stretch was 856 points in 377 games but and that was over 8 seasons. 2.27 points per game.
That's a 5 year stetch where he averaged over 200 points a season which is something Lemieux never did.
To me, that puts to rest that Mario at his best was better than Gretzky.

Gretzky could have retired when he was 29 and still hold the all-time scoring record with 1,979 points.


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01-31-2013, 10:17 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, I'll rephrase. Gretzky did not DIRECTLY make Nicholls a better scorer. Which is generally the implication when people say "Nicholls played with Gretzky".

Nicholls could have played those minutes behind John Cullen, and if he were against the same opposition with the same linemates at ES he'd have put up the same numbers. My point is that he didn't have Gretzky at ES. And beyond that, he still put up HHOF-worthy numbers OUTSIDE of those seasons. Make it a 90-100 point season in those two years, and he's still close to 1200 and better than PPG.

It's like the people in the Luongo threads who say "without a Cup, he's not getting into the Hall" and then the response is "one game determines the yes or no vote?"

What is it? Do 225 points over 126 games in Nicholls' career determine whether or not he's a Hall of Famer? Steve Shutt's in the Hall and never came close to what Nicholls did in goals or points. You know another guy with lower single-season career highs for goals and points, as well as career totals for assists and points? Mike Bossy.

But those guys, they didn't play with any Hart trophy winners or Art Ross winners in their career. Not once.
Nicholls's career highs for goals and points are 1 and 3 higher than Bossy's and Bossy also has a higher career best for assists than Nicholls. Nicholls also played several more years in the league than Bossy did. Nicholls never came close before or after that year to those kind of numbers, while Bossy scored 60+ multiple times, 50+ his first nine years in the league and got close to 40 in his last year when he could barely move because his back was so bad. And Trottier didn't win all that many trophies, so that argument doesn't fly in this comparison either. Bottom line, Bossy>>>>>Nicholls.

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