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Old
01-31-2013, 12:41 AM
  #51
Beef Invictus
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
It's hilarious to me to see Homer supporters preaching "patience". We're talking about a man who traded away our young (both 26 years of age at the time of the trade) superstars to get even younger, while continuing to hold onto Pronger, Timonen, and Briere and not even trying to trade any of them. And then in the mean time, he signed a goalie for humongous big money who will be out of his prime by the time these new younger players hit their prime.

This wasn't a "proper" rebuild. This is nothing like a proper rebuild. This was Homer's attempt to pull a rabbit out of his a** and get the best of both worlds, getting younger while still competing. This type of "mixed" strategy is not how you build a championship team, this is how you royally ****** up a team for a decade.
One the one hand, throwing out your young core because of a reported dispute with your very old captain nearing the end of his career was a questionable decision, if rumors of such a dispute are true. We don't know what the case truly is though so I thought it best to include that scenario as well.

On the other, as far as flying rebuilds go, that was about as good as you can get; probably the best possible. Our prospect pool is still empty, but the impending apocalypse was delayed by a few years because of the quantity and quality of youth returned.

The issue will be if Homer keeps trading his picks and prospects year after year. Then the team is back against the wall again.

Edit: Personally, I think the situation with the cap, need for goalie, and zero prospects worth calling up to fill our various holes, necessitating FA moves we couldn't make had more to do with the flying rebuild than any reported dispute.

Edit 2: and I agree that there's the right way, and the wrong way. I wouldn't say we're going the wrong way, per se. So really, there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Flyers way. The Flyers way is a hybrid of the two. I'm not convinced it can yield results.

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Old
01-31-2013, 06:32 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
It's hilarious to me to see Homer supporters preaching "patience". We're talking about a man who traded away our young (both 26 years of age at the time of the trade) superstars to get even younger, while continuing to hold onto Pronger, Timonen, and Briere and not even trying to trade any of them. And then in the mean time, he signed a goalie for humongous big money who will be out of his prime by the time these new younger players hit their prime.

This wasn't a "proper" rebuild. This is nothing like a proper rebuild. This was Homer's attempt to pull a rabbit out of his a** and get the best of both worlds, getting younger while still competing. This type of "mixed" strategy is not how you build a championship team, this is how you royally ****** up a team for a decade.
Pronger is gone and kimmo and Briere are following shortly (at least they won't be on the roster getting 6+). After that the flyers are left with a young core on offense and defense so i don't really see your point. Sure they have a hole or two but at least 1 could potentially be filled very soon. I think homer has done a very good job compiling these players, but time will tell.

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01-31-2013, 09:49 AM
  #53
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Maybe it's me but I don't necessarily view defensemen as young the same way I do forwards. It seems to me that great defensemen take longer to develop and don't hit their prime til about 27-29 years old. They can also be good later in their careers than forwards. Maybe it's just me.

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01-31-2013, 10:03 AM
  #54
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Forwards are driven by their instincts and youth, speed and agility/mobility are beneficial when it comes to goal scoring in general.

Defensemen rely more on positioning, endurance and experience. Almost all of these predicates are at their peak or still there without much subtraction at a higher age by nature.

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01-31-2013, 10:15 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
One the one hand, throwing out your young core because of a reported dispute with your very old captain nearing the end of his career was a questionable decision, if rumors of such a dispute are true. We don't know what the case truly is though so I thought it best to include that scenario as well.

On the other, as far as flying rebuilds go, that was about as good as you can get; probably the best possible. Our prospect pool is still empty, but the impending apocalypse was delayed by a few years because of the quantity and quality of youth returned.

The issue will be if Homer keeps trading his picks and prospects year after year. Then the team is back against the wall again.

Edit: Personally, I think the situation with the cap, need for goalie, and zero prospects worth calling up to fill our various holes, necessitating FA moves we couldn't make had more to do with the flying rebuild than any reported dispute.

Edit 2: and I agree that there's the right way, and the wrong way. I wouldn't say we're going the wrong way, per se. So really, there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Flyers way. The Flyers way is a hybrid of the two. I'm not convinced it can yield results.
This is why I kind of fear that the Flyers will be one of those teams sort of close to a playoff spot come trade deadline. I fear Homer will trade away the last of what we have in prospects to bring in a player that "could" push us deep into the playoffs, or make the playoffs at all for that matter.

I hope by the trade deadline this team is either beyond repairable for the season or completely dominating because if we are just average, I would hate give up what we have left so that our average team can have an outside shot at a deep playoff run.

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01-31-2013, 10:25 AM
  #56
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This is why I kind of fear that the Flyers will be one of those teams sort of close to a playoff spot come trade deadline. I fear Homer will trade away the last of what we have in prospects to bring in a player that "could" push us deep into the playoffs, or make the playoffs at all for that matter.

I hope by the trade deadline this team is either beyond repairable for the season or completely dominating because if we are just average, I would hate give up what we have left so that our average team can have an outside shot at a deep playoff run.
I feel the same way, unfortunately that's probably what'll happen

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01-31-2013, 11:03 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
It's hilarious to me to see Homer supporters preaching "patience". We're talking about a man who traded away our young (both 26 years of age at the time of the trade) superstars to get even younger, while continuing to hold onto Pronger, Timonen, and Briere and not even trying to trade any of them. And then in the mean time, he signed a goalie for humongous big money who will be out of his prime by the time these new younger players hit their prime.

This wasn't a "proper" rebuild. This is nothing like a proper rebuild. This was Homer's attempt to pull a rabbit out of his a** and get the best of both worlds, getting younger while still competing. This type of "mixed" strategy is not how you build a championship team, this is how you royally ****** up a team for a decade.
A person doesn't have to be a Holmgren supporter to preach patience. I am not a Holmgren supporter and I preach patience because I don't want to see him to dig us any deeper than he already has.

That said, I 100% agree with you. Holmgren screwed up in 2011 when he got younger at forward, but kept over the hill players in key roles to win now. His biggest blunder was not getting younger on defense which was and still remains the team's immediate need. His focus was entirely wrong. It was a huge gamble to rely on two defenders in their late 30s when the majority of players are out of the league by that age.

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01-31-2013, 01:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
A person doesn't have to be a Holmgren supporter to preach patience. I am not a Holmgren supporter and I preach patience because I don't want to see him to dig us any deeper than he already has.

That said, I 100% agree with you. Holmgren screwed up in 2011 when he got younger at forward, but kept over the hill players in key roles to win now. His biggest blunder was not getting younger on defense which was and still remains the team's immediate need. His focus was entirely wrong. It was a huge gamble to rely on two defenders in their late 30s when the majority of players are out of the league by that age.
Would you have tried to get someone like Jack Johnson from LA instead of Simmonds or Schenn? Would you have tried to get someone like John Moore or Cody Goloubef from the Jackets instead of Voracek or one of those picks?

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01-31-2013, 02:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
A person doesn't have to be a Holmgren supporter to preach patience. I am not a Holmgren supporter and I preach patience because I don't want to see him to dig us any deeper than he already has.

That said, I 100% agree with you. Holmgren screwed up in 2011 when he got younger at forward, but kept over the hill players in key roles to win now. His biggest blunder was not getting younger on defense which was and still remains the team's immediate need. His focus was entirely wrong. It was a huge gamble to rely on two defenders in their late 30s when the majority of players are out of the league by that age.


dude. welcome to pro sports. its all a huge gamble. explain what isn't. even moves that seem safe are potential for disaster. i like holmgrens fearlessness. its created success for the most part. look at not only what he does but what he tries to do. you can see what he's been trying to make us become. i like that plan. what happens if the weber GAMBLE pays off? this is all hindsight cause we lost a couple games to start a season with no training camp. you can't have everything. i don't believe the people crying about bare cub boards would be content to go through what edmonton's been going through for the last 6 years. thats some suffering. we could actually in reality be a move away from a cup. those guys are still just trying to figure out if they can pay the NHL price.

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01-31-2013, 02:21 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Would you have tried to get someone like Jack Johnson from LA instead of Simmonds or Schenn? Would you have tried to get someone like John Moore or Cody Goloubef from the Jackets instead of Voracek or one of those picks?
No to Jack Johnson because I don't think he is very good, but I think Holmgren should have shopped them for a defender or he needed to take another approach instead of the bizarre hybrid approach he took.

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01-31-2013, 02:26 PM
  #61
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This thread is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best.

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01-31-2013, 02:27 PM
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This thread is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best.
Not really. There are numerous posters here on both sides of the argument being very consistent with what they've said all along.

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01-31-2013, 02:41 PM
  #63
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[/B]

dude. welcome to pro sports. its all a huge gamble. explain what isn't. even moves that seem safe are potential for disaster. i like holmgrens fearlessness. its created success for the most part. look at not only what he does but what he tries to do. you can see what he's been trying to make us become. i like that plan. what happens if the weber GAMBLE pays off? this is all hindsight cause we lost a couple games to start a season with no training camp. you can't have everything. i don't believe the people crying about bare cub boards would be content to go through what edmonton's been going through for the last 6 years. thats some suffering. we could actually in reality be a move away from a cup. those guys are still just trying to figure out if they can pay the NHL price.
What is he trying to make the Flyers become? They have finished higher than 5th in the East only once under Holmgren. That is not good enough for a team that used to regularly battle for the division under Clarke.

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01-31-2013, 03:04 PM
  #64
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Ryan is coming to the flyers once he hits UFA, I think everyone knows it. I doubt they trade for him before them, but knowing homer he'll probably trade for his negotiating rights for a 2nd rounder or something stupid.

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01-31-2013, 03:19 PM
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What is he trying to make the Flyers become? They have finished higher than 5th in the East only once under Holmgren. That is not good enough for a team that used to regularly battle for the division under Clarke.
he's only been GM for 5 complete seasons. in that time they went to the SCF and the conference finals once more. they've also won the division in 2010-11 and have made it out of the first round 4 of the 5 yrs. they've been good under Holmgren.

and check out the roster Clarke had playing for him. Sure you could argue that he had to acquire those players but the simple fact is there aren't as many of those producers around anymore. he worked in a completely different time were 50 goal scorers were plentiful.

check this out if interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...0-goal_seasons

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01-31-2013, 04:41 PM
  #66
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What is he trying to make the Flyers become? They have finished higher than 5th in the East only once under Holmgren. That is not good enough for a team that used to regularly battle for the division under Clarke.
first of all clarke bailed the second the cap came into play. he was like "screw that". and he obviously didn't win a cup. and you know what homer's been trying to do with us. he's been trying to combine that quick (buffalo outta the lockout like) youthful creative offense with a big strong mobile defense with good goaltending. things happen. hall of fame career ending injuries being the major one. you sound like you would've avoided all this by sucking and rebuilding through the draft but that's so much more of a gamble. i'd way rather do it this way.

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01-31-2013, 05:04 PM
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I feel like Homer took a shot with the guys we had. When it didn't work he opened our window longer by moving 2 core peices for what could turn out to be 4 or 5 core peices and allowing our stud Center become the superstar that he could. He extended our window and made it possible for us to compete with a stacked roster as soon as last year. Schenn and Couturier will turn into studs, they just need some time to do so. Voracek is still young. At worst he is a 50 pt, big possession winger that provides speed and good entry into the zone. At best he starts to stop holding the stick so tight and turns into a playmaking RW who can bang a few home as well. Then there is Simmonds who is on a great contract and provides a gritty net presence, that we have lacked since Knuble.

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01-31-2013, 05:17 PM
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I feel like Homer took a shot with the guys we had. When it didn't work he opened our window longer by moving 2 core peices for what could turn out to be 4 or 5 core peices and allowing our stud Center become the superstar that he could. He extended our window and made it possible for us to compete with a stacked roster as soon as last year. Schenn and Couturier will turn into studs, they just need some time to do so. Voracek is still young. At worst he is a 50 pt, big possession winger that provides speed and good entry into the zone. At best he starts to stop holding the stick so tight and turns into a playmaking RW who can bang a few home as well. Then there is Simmonds who is on a great contract and provides a gritty net presence, that we have lacked since Knuble.
nice wrap up. see? at least your paying attention. i don't know what the hell some people are lookin at. besides freakin out at a couple of losses.

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01-31-2013, 05:58 PM
  #69
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nice wrap up. see? at least your paying attention. i don't know what the hell some people are lookin at. besides freakin out at a couple of losses.
I think flyers fans as a whole are used to having one of the best teams in the league all the time. In our recent history we have not had a team that was full of young guys who were part of our core team. When we had our "down" years recently we had a veteran team that just could not compete in the new NHL. We turned it around in one offseason and were instant competitors again. We took a bit longer of an approach by moving Carter and Richards for younger peices but I think it can work out. If we get a stud defensemen in this years draft in 2 or 3 years our defense could look like

Stud d-man-Coburn
Schenn-Grossmann
Gustaffsson-Gostisbehere

While our offense develops into the powerhouse it could be. We may be in a Chicago scenario at that point with a bunch of guys ELC's expiring at the same time. But Chicago won the cup with that kind of roster.

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01-31-2013, 07:34 PM
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I think flyers fans as a whole are used to having one of the best teams in the league all the time. In our recent history we have not had a team that was full of young guys who were part of our core team. When we had our "down" years recently we had a veteran team that just could not compete in the new NHL. We turned it around in one offseason and were instant competitors again. We took a bit longer of an approach by moving Carter and Richards for younger peices but I think it can work out. If we get a stud defensemen in this years draft in 2 or 3 years our defense could look like

Stud d-man-Coburn
Schenn-Grossmann
Gustaffsson-Gostisbehere

While our offense develops into the powerhouse it could be. We may be in a Chicago scenario at that point with a bunch of guys ELC's expiring at the same time. But Chicago won the cup with that kind of roster.
yea. the way i'm reading a lot of really most of the stuff on all these threads are that people didn't really adjust their expectations after 2011. they just thought well we got a goalie now. time to win the cup. (not everybody) but it was never gonna happen like that even with pronger. we would definitely have been in a different place but simmonds, schenn, couturier, giroux and voracek were thrown together with no past experience to base any expectations off. the other thing is, and this is where i know most people think I'm an idiot, bryzgalov was signed that long not only to circumvent but because they planned on him playing at a high level until he is 39 40. we made a lot of crazy moves its time to ride it out for a while. woulda been nice to get weber tho.

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01-31-2013, 07:48 PM
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I feel like Homer took a shot with the guys we had. When it didn't work he opened our window longer by moving 2 core peices for what could turn out to be 4 or 5 core peices and allowing our stud Center become the superstar that he could. He extended our window and made it possible for us to compete with a stacked roster as soon as last year. Schenn and Couturier will turn into studs, they just need some time to do so. Voracek is still young. At worst he is a 50 pt, big possession winger that provides speed and good entry into the zone. At best he starts to stop holding the stick so tight and turns into a playmaking RW who can bang a few home as well. Then there is Simmonds who is on a great contract and provides a gritty net presence, that we have lacked since Knuble.
Would you care to explain the thought process behind keeping a 37 year old Chris Pronger, a 36 year old Kimmo Timonen, and a 34 year old Danny Briere when your new organizational philosophy was to have a top-9 where 7 members were as follows: two 23 year olds, two 22 year olds, a 20 year old, a 19 year old, and a 25 year old rookie?

Would you care to explain the thought process of signing a 31 year old goalie to a NINE YEAR contract when you had a promising 23 year old goalie who fit perfectly in age-wise with the rest of your team?

These are all stupid moves that were made by Homer as part of his grand "rebuild". You only hang onto players like Kimmo Timonen and Chris Pronger and Danny Briere and sign a goalie like Bryz if you're in win now mode. But clearly the Flyers were not in any type of "win now" mode with the youth on that roster. People all over this board were predicting us to miss the playoffs last year. And had we done this thing properly, we probably would have. But instead, we signed Bryz, we signed Jagr, and we kept all of our aging veterans and we made the playoffs, where we had 0 chance, and got stuck w/ a draft pick in the 20s.

No team has ever won a cup (at least not since my birth) with that type of youth in their top 9. It's not possible. But Homer's "strategy" that people are praising here appears to have been to compete immediately with a roster full of 20 year olds. And now, we're finding out exactly why that was such a dumb and flawed strategy.

But still, people like you can't seem to grasp all the mistakes Homer has made. You think he's done an excellent job.

It's mystifying. It really is. People actually think it was smart to hold onto Briere, Pronger, and Timonen while rebuilding. People actually think it was smart to sign Bryz when we had Bob and were rebuilding.

I give up.

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01-31-2013, 08:30 PM
  #72
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Would you care to explain the thought process behind keeping a 37 year old Chris Pronger, a 36 year old Kimmo Timonen, and a 34 year old Danny Briere when your new organizational philosophy was to have a top-9 where 7 members were as follows: two 23 year olds, two 22 year olds, a 20 year old, a 19 year old, and a 25 year old rookie?

Would you care to explain the thought process of signing a 31 year old goalie to a NINE YEAR contract when you had a promising 23 year old goalie who fit perfectly in age-wise with the rest of your team?

These are all stupid moves that were made by Homer as part of his grand "rebuild". You only hang onto players like Kimmo Timonen and Chris Pronger and Danny Briere and sign a goalie like Bryz if you're in win now mode. But clearly the Flyers were not in any type of "win now" mode with the youth on that roster. People all over this board were predicting us to miss the playoffs last year. And had we done this thing properly, we probably would have. But instead, we signed Bryz, we signed Jagr, and we kept all of our aging veterans and we made the playoffs, where we had 0 chance, and got stuck w/ a draft pick in the 20s.

No team has ever won a cup (at least not since my birth) with that type of youth in their top 9. It's not possible. But Homer's "strategy" that people are praising here appears to have been to compete immediately with a roster full of 20 year olds. And now, we're finding out exactly why that was such a dumb and flawed strategy.

But still, people like you can't seem to grasp all the mistakes Homer has made. You think he's done an excellent job.

It's mystifying. It really is. People actually think it was smart to hold onto Briere, Pronger, and Timonen while rebuilding. People actually think it was smart to sign Bryz when we had Bob and were rebuilding.

I give up.
You should give up, your thought proccess is completely irrational. No one could have predicted Prongers injury, up until that point he was still competing at a high level and even with all that youth up front we were doing extraordinarily well. You don't think this team would be different if Pronger was healthy? Even if you go into the season thinking we can't win the cup, the reason you don't move Briere, Timonen, Pronger? 1 is all 3 have No Movement Clauses, would you prefer trading them and getting Matt Walker returns? Or would you rather have them around to mentor your young youth movement to show them what winning is about and how to lead. You think Bryz was like the worst thing possible? Guess what we have a goalie now. He's playing well. He's signed to a reasonable cap hit for a starting goalie who has a pedigree as a former vezina candidate. Why was he signed 9 years? I think thats fairly obvious, to bring his cap hit down. Some people just can't be happy with what they have they blindly hate for reasons they don't even know. It's amazing to think you are actually a fan of this team.

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01-31-2013, 08:47 PM
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Wait for Ryan to be a UFA, the price to trade for him will put us in a bottomless pit for years

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01-31-2013, 08:48 PM
  #74
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It's mystifying. It really is. People actually think it was smart to hold onto Briere, Pronger, and Timonen while rebuilding. People actually think it was smart to sign Bryz when we had Bob and were rebuilding.

I give up.
You keep the veterans so you don't become Edmonton and the Islanders: teams building slowly thru the draft in the bottom five of the league for 5 years. Or like Pittsburgh did. As you can see by the reaction after 7 games, Flyers fans would never except a 5 year rebuild. You sign Bryz to cover for lapses by the young players. No team has ever won the cup without veterans either.

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01-31-2013, 09:03 PM
  #75
FlyingHigh28*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
You should give up, your thought proccess is completely irrational. No one could have predicted Prongers injury, up until that point he was still competing at a high level and even with all that youth up front we were doing extraordinarily well. You don't think this team would be different if Pronger was healthy? Even if you go into the season thinking we can't win the cup, the reason you don't move Briere, Timonen, Pronger? 1 is all 3 have No Movement Clauses, would you prefer trading them and getting Matt Walker returns? Or would you rather have them around to mentor your young youth movement to show them what winning is about and how to lead. You think Bryz was like the worst thing possible? Guess what we have a goalie now. He's playing well. He's signed to a reasonable cap hit for a starting goalie who has a pedigree as a former vezina candidate. Why was he signed 9 years? I think thats fairly obvious, to bring his cap hit down. Some people just can't be happy with what they have they blindly hate for reasons they don't even know. It's amazing to think you are actually a fan of this team.
No one could have predicted that a 37 year old defenseman who'd largely been one of the most physical body-banging d-men in the game for the better part of 2 decades in the NHL might start to wear down, become more injury prone, and put up lesser stats as he neared 40? Ok, I guess I'll take your word for it. The way Pronger ended up being injured was unpredictable, but the fact that he didn't make it through 2012 completely healthy was no surprise to me. Nor is the fact that he'll be done in the NHL prior to age 40. If you couldn't see that he wasn't going to last another 3-4 seasons then IDK what to tell you man.

And do you really think Briere, Timonen, and Pronger all wanted to stay around and waste their final productive years in the NHL mentoring a group of young forwards who had no real chance at a cup? If we offered them to contending teams, they would've all had good value and they would've waived their NMCs. Rarely do NMCs actually end up being used to prevent the dealing of players. They might be used to stop a player being dealt to a bad destination, but the player is usually moved somewhere anyway.

Do I think Bryz is the worst thing possible? No. I'm a big fan of the way he has played this year and if we still had Richards and Carter, I would've been a big fan of him being signed. But at this point, I think Bryz is going to waste the most productive remaining years of his career while the youth on this team matures and by the time they are in their primes I think Bryz will be in decline.

I think this whole thing is a laughable calamity of terrible timing by Holmgren.

But would I ever stop rooting for my Philadelphia Flyers? Absolutely not. And the fact that you suggest that I should means you're the fairweather fan. A real fan of a team doesn't ever think about deserting their team or telling someone else to do so as you've just done. I'll stand by my team till the end. I'm a Flyers fan since birth and I'll be one till I die, but it's perfectly OK as a fan to disagree with the moves your egghead GM is making. And that's how I feel. It's also OK to be fed up w/ moronic fans such as yourself.

Being a fan of a team doesn't mean you have to be rah rah about every single thing that they do. I don't subscribe to the "Go team" soccer mom model of rooting on the sports teams I cheer for. But if you do, that's your right I guess.

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