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Kaberle Experiment

View Poll Results: Has Kaberle played his last game in Montreal?
Yes! Press box or trade him A.S.A.P.! 77 86.52%
No! He's still valuable for the Habs PP! 12 13.48%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-31-2013, 10:00 AM
  #26
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
he's worst than last season.
I still think he's better. But not by enough to matter. Then again, I had a lower opinion of him last season than most did too.

He does seem a bit quicker to the puck and less afraid. It hasn't exactly added any huge improvement to his game, though. But he's also getting far fewer minutes and somebody else took over the PP very effectively. I don't think he really hurts us as a #6/7/8 defenseman.

But of course, at the same time, we know now that we're definitely buying him out in the off-season, if he remains on the team that long. So if there's any offer on him at all out there at any point before the trade deadline, I'd say take it. I wouldn't wait until the deadline to maximize return either. I'm not sure he'll play too much before then to improve his value. So take the first offer that comes along and run with it.

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01-31-2013, 10:25 AM
  #27
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I still think he's better. But not by enough to matter. Then again, I had a lower opinion of him last season than most did too.

He does seem a bit quicker to the puck and less afraid. It hasn't exactly added any huge improvement to his game, though. But he's also getting far fewer minutes and somebody else took over the PP very effectively. I don't think he really hurts us as a #6/7/8 defenseman.

But of course, at the same time, we know now that we're definitely buying him out in the off-season, if he remains on the team that long. So if there's any offer on him at all out there at any point before the trade deadline, I'd say take it. I wouldn't wait until the deadline to maximize return either. I'm not sure he'll play too much before then to improve his value. So take the first offer that comes along and run with it.
the only trade i make is for picks
no salary coming back
the whole point is to gain cap relief with him off the books

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01-31-2013, 10:38 AM
  #28
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No team is going to want Kaberle with that bloated contract and knowing full well he is our #1 target for an amnesty buyout.

He will be in the NHL next season, but not at 4.25M. I fully expect a team to throw a voucher out on him for 1.5m or so. At that price tag he's worth the gamble.

I don't even think a team would want him if we paid half his salary. Although its possible if Bergevin has little intentions on changing anything this summer.

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01-31-2013, 11:05 AM
  #29
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No team is going to want Kaberle with that bloated contract and knowing full well he is our #1 target for an amnesty buyout.

He will be in the NHL next season, but not at 4.25M. I fully expect a team to throw a voucher out on him for 1.5m or so. At that price tag he's worth the gamble.

I don't even think a team would want him if we paid half his salary. Although its possible if Bergevin has little intentions on changing anything this summer.
How is 4.25 mil a "bloated contract"? Sure he isn't worth it right now based on his role, but say we trade him after 20 games the team getting him will owe him about 2.5 mil in salary/cap hit and they have the option of an amnesty buyout in the summer.

It's not like we are trying to trade Gomez.

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01-31-2013, 11:17 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I agree, the guy who was -1 and played 15minutes is obviously to blame. Everyone else was exceptional, it's all on Kaberle.
When said player is being paid 4.25M in a cap system, then yes, being inadequate to the point that ur a healthy scratch or playing sub-17-19min a game, without contributing offensively AND being a defensive liability, does merit being called out.

MB should have aggressively tried to move him before season started... Every poor game he racks up this year further erodes whatever value his misleading pt total from last year could potentially have created in rival gm's

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01-31-2013, 11:54 AM
  #31
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When said player is being paid 4.25M in a cap system, then yes, being inadequate to the point that ur a healthy scratch or playing sub-17-19min a game, without contributing offensively AND being a defensive liability, does merit being called out.

MB should have aggressively tried to move him before season started... Every poor game he racks up this year further erodes whatever value his misleading pt total from last year could potentially have created in rival gm's
If anything his value goes up and cap hit goes down as we get closer to midseason/trade deadline.

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01-31-2013, 11:56 AM
  #32
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If anything his value goes up and cap hit goes down as we get closer to midseason/trade deadline.
He still has a year left on his contract and that's why no one will trade from him more then a 6th rounder or unless you're ready to take back a salary dump player in return

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01-31-2013, 11:57 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
flash poll:
has Kaberle played his last game ever for the habs?
He's better and cheaper than Phaneuf

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01-31-2013, 12:24 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I still think he's better. But not by enough to matter. Then again, I had a lower opinion of him last season than most did too.

He does seem a bit quicker to the puck and less afraid. It hasn't exactly added any huge improvement to his game, though. But he's also getting far fewer minutes and somebody else took over the PP very effectively. I don't think he really hurts us as a #6/7/8 defenseman.

But of course, at the same time, we know now that we're definitely buying him out in the off-season, if he remains on the team that long. So if there's any offer on him at all out there at any point before the trade deadline, I'd say take it. I wouldn't wait until the deadline to maximize return either. I'm not sure he'll play too much before then to improve his value. So take the first offer that comes along and run with it.
Agreed but I doubt we would get a draft choice, other than maybe a 7th rounder. We would likely have take some salary back but if it was only a one year contract or a lower salary than Kaberle, it would make financial sense.

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01-31-2013, 01:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Every poor game he racks up this year further erodes whatever value his misleading pt total from last year could potentially have created in rival gm's
Not to argue that he's a good/bad player or that he's overpaid or not but...his 'misleading' point totals from last year is pretty much in line with every season he has played in the NHL... i.e. over 10+ yrs. He's always been a high risk high reward type player. Offensively gifted, defensively...not so much.

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01-31-2013, 01:20 PM
  #36
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Agreed but I doubt we would get a draft choice, other than maybe a 7th rounder. We would likely have take some salary back but if it was only a one year contract or a lower salary than Kaberle, it would make financial sense.
Agreed with Kingbobert that there's no way I'd take salary back in moving him. But of course, it's not my money... maybe Mr. Molson would have a different opinion on spending the $3M on the buyout vs. some lesser amount, traded off against having more cap space/greater ability to improve the team next year.

Anyway, history shows us again and again how an ancient vet defender can pull a draft pick in...

So who knows. Just sit back and see, I guess. It doesn't help or hurt us at this point to just sit on the case.

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01-31-2013, 01:31 PM
  #37
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I saw him eating babies in the crowd. Won't anyone think of the children!

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01-31-2013, 02:01 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If anything his value goes up and cap hit goes down as we get closer to midseason/trade deadline.
Not playing like this it won't...

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01-31-2013, 02:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Not to argue that he's a good/bad player or that he's overpaid or not but...his 'misleading' point totals from last year is pretty much in line with every season he has played in the NHL... i.e. over 10+ yrs. He's always been a high risk high reward type player. Offensively gifted, defensively...not so much.
I don't know... I think in most of his time with the leafs he was far more reliable defensively than he's been the past 2-3 seasons.

That's the misleading part. The points tell some people (chiarelli, Rutherford & Gauthier among them) that he's the same kaberle from his TO heyday... But quickly they find out how wrong they are... Other two teams got rid of him quickly, MB better act quick

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01-31-2013, 02:19 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Not to argue that he's a good/bad player or that he's overpaid or not but...his 'misleading' point totals from last year is pretty much in line with every season he has played in the NHL... i.e. over 10+ yrs. He's always been a high risk high reward type player. Offensively gifted, defensively...not so much.
There are a few things about Kaberle's play that drive me crazy
- He seems to move at a leisurely pace when retrieving a puck dumped into our zone by the opposition. When he finally gets there, the forward is all over him and we wind up hemmed into our own end.
- His passes are so soft that they arrive at our forward at approximately the same time as a defender who invariably has to fight for the puck. It is the complete opposite of a Markov pass
- He literally never takes the body which wouldn't be so bad if the first two weaknesses I mentioned weren't a problem.
- This year he has been horrible at holding the puck in the opposition zone on the PP. I don't know if it is bad luck or lack of hustle but it isn't happening.

He is style of play is not suited for his role on the team. At this point he isn't going to replace Markov, Gorges, Emelin or Subban. He is a third pairing defenseman on this team at best because we already have two superior offensive defensemen on in the first two pairings. That means he battles it out with Diaz for the offensive defenseman on the third pairing and at this point, Diaz has that spot locked up.

That doesn't mean he couldn't be an offensive force on another team but it isn't going to happen on this one.

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01-31-2013, 02:35 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I don't know... I think in most of his time with the leafs he was far more reliable defensively than he's been the past 2-3 seasons.

That's the misleading part. The points tell some people (chiarelli, Rutherford & Gauthier among them) that he's the same kaberle from his TO heyday... But quickly they find out how wrong they are... Other two teams got rid of him quickly, MB better act quick
I don't know...I haven't closely watched him much throughout his career but whenever I caught a Toronto game (I live in Toronto), he has always been suspect defensively and going by the Toronto fans around me, absolutely horrible defensively. So at least from that perspective, I haven't really noticed much difference defensively from those days to todays. Been bad before, bad today.

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01-31-2013, 02:38 PM
  #42
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There are a few things about Kaberle's play that drive me crazy
- He seems to move at a leisurely pace when retrieving a puck dumped into our zone by the opposition. When he finally gets there, the forward is all over him and we wind up hemmed into our own end.
- His passes are so soft that they arrive at our forward at approximately the same time as a defender who invariably has to fight for the puck. It is the complete opposite of a Markov pass
- He literally never takes the body which wouldn't be so bad if the first two weaknesses I mentioned weren't a problem.
- This year he has been horrible at holding the puck in the opposition zone on the PP. I don't know if it is bad luck or lack of hustle but it isn't happening.

He is style of play is not suited for his role on the team. At this point he isn't going to replace Markov, Gorges, Emelin or Subban. He is a third pairing defenseman on this team at best because we already have two superior offensive defensemen on in the first two pairings. That means he battles it out with Diaz for the offensive defenseman on the third pairing and at this point, Diaz has that spot locked up.

That doesn't mean he couldn't be an offensive force on another team but it isn't going to happen on this one.
You are quite possibly correct on all your points but being partnered off with Diaz maybe a good thing? Kabs is never going to score much while Diaz I never saw as someone who creates offensive opportunities so pair them up and just maybe they may be able to help each other?

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01-31-2013, 03:46 PM
  #43
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We're gonna buy him out at the end of the season. If we can receive a pick from a team looking for D (Philly, LA?), it's a bonus. I'd rather play Weber than him. He's slightly worse, but at least we can hope he will improve, at some point. And if we need an extra D for depth, St Denis did the job last year when he was called up.
With PK back, Kaberle is definitely out, and hopefully will be dealt away/dumped.

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01-31-2013, 04:53 PM
  #44
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How is 4.25 mil a "bloated contract"? Sure he isn't worth it right now based on his role, but say we trade him after 20 games the team getting him will owe him about 2.5 mil in salary/cap hit and they have the option of an amnesty buyout in the summer.

It's not like we are trying to trade Gomez.
Uhhh... Really?

You just answered your own question! Why would a team take a flyer on Kaberle right now and risk having to buy him out knowing full well we're going to in the summer with 100% certainty.

Any team in the NHL will be able to sign Tomas Kaberle this summer, and it's going to be for drastically less than the 4.25M he currently and would otherwise be slated to make next season. It makes no sense from any teams perspective, especially financially, to take such a gamble and end up being on the hook for half his salary this season and another 4.25M next season..

The whole idea that a contender might need a puck moving defenseman come the deadline? Meh. Maybe it would have *some* weight if Kaberle were producing except through 6 games he has ZILCH. There will also likely be other options on the table besides just Kaberle, hell we have a more attractive trade bait option on our own team in Yannick Weber!

I'd be willing to bet you 100$ right now that the Habs end up having to buy him out or at the very least end up retaining half his salary as a part of any trade moving forward. Even at a cool 2.125M, if I'm a GM I probably just wait for Molson to open up his wallet this summer... At which point Kaberle will go for Redden/Gomez money, maybe slightly more.

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01-31-2013, 05:11 PM
  #45
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Okay, here's thinking outside the box. When Subban comes back, we can
try Kaberle in MazPac's spot. It's not as if that line is doing much now. And
he does play defence a little like Gary Leeman did.

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01-31-2013, 05:24 PM
  #46
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I hope its kaberle that is sitting when subban comes back.

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01-31-2013, 05:26 PM
  #47
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He still has a year left on his contract and that's why no one will trade from him more then a 6th rounder or unless you're ready to take back a salary dump player in return
Teams can use their Amnesty Buyout on him. I wouldn't be opposed to taking salary back in a Cammy-Bourque type deal. Give another player a new start, if it doesn't work he can be the Amnesty Buyout...or maybe it's somebody on his last year of contract?

Who would teams be looking to dump?

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01-31-2013, 05:28 PM
  #48
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Uhhh... Really?

You just answered your own question! Why would a team take a flyer on Kaberle right now and risk having to buy him out knowing full well we're going to in the summer with 100% certainty.

Any team in the NHL will be able to sign Tomas Kaberle this summer, and it's going to be for drastically less than the 4.25M he currently and would otherwise be slated to make next season. It makes no sense from any teams perspective, especially financially, to take such a gamble and end up being on the hook for half his salary this season and another 4.25M next season..

The whole idea that a contender might need a puck moving defenseman come the deadline? Meh. Maybe it would have *some* weight if Kaberle were producing except through 6 games he has ZILCH. There will also likely be other options on the table besides just Kaberle, hell we have a more attractive trade bait option on our own team in Yannick Weber!

I'd be willing to bet you 100$ right now that the Habs end up having to buy him out or at the very least end up retaining half his salary as a part of any trade moving forward. Even at a cool 2.125M, if I'm a GM I probably just wait for Molson to open up his wallet this summer... At which point Kaberle will go for Redden/Gomez money, maybe slightly more.
Because teams want d-men NOW.

Lots of teams with injured defensemen or struggling PP's.

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01-31-2013, 06:09 PM
  #49
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You are quite possibly correct on all your points but being partnered off with Diaz maybe a good thing? Kabs is never going to score much while Diaz I never saw as someone who creates offensive opportunities so pair them up and just maybe they may be able to help each other?
For that to happen Kaberle would have to replace Bouillon and we know that Therrien love Frankie so that still leaves Kaberle as the odd man out. Given that the Habs will either trade him before year end or use an amnesty buyout, I doubt they will use Kaberle over Diaz. Montreal will want to see what Diaz can do, if he can continue to develop and it is hard to make that evaluation if you are sitting him in favour of a guy who doesn't figure in your longer term plans.

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01-31-2013, 06:50 PM
  #50
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Because teams want d-men NOW.

Lots of teams with injured defensemen or struggling PP's.
It's still early but teams with horrible PP's right now:

LA Kings 3.7%
Colorado Avalanche 5.3%
Detroit Red Wings 9.4%
Carolina Hurricanes (not going to happen) 11.5%
Columbus Blue Jackets 11.8%
New York Rangers 12.5%
Boston Bruins 12.5%
Philadelphia Flyers 13.5%
Washington Capitals 16.0%
Dallas Stars 16.0%

Of all those teams, LA looks like one that could use some offensive help on the blueline. They have only 11 goals in five games.

Would some kind of a swap with them make sense. LA has no obvious candidates for an amnesty buyout so they could use that option for Kaberle if they didn't want to use him the following season.

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