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When does Vokoun become the Pen's starter?

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Old
01-31-2013, 03:52 PM
  #51
Mordax
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
wow if some of you were the GM you might be going after Luongo

MAF this year has not been the problem
So happy that the annoying goalie controversy that I get to hear about over here in Vancouver is going on in Pittsburgh as well

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01-31-2013, 03:54 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post


I can't believe you guys only look at stat sheets. Doesn't that get boring just looking at numbers? I mean, I like watching the game.

Personally, I think the Fleury haters are the trolls. Can you honestly say that no one else crapped the bed in the Montreal series? Can you honestly say the Tampa Bay series had nothing to do with a 1 for 35 on the PP?

Can you honestly say the Penguins manage the puck just as well as most teams?

Typical Pittsburgh fan, only look at scores and stats.
I never said that Fleury was the SOLE reason for them losing. You have done a masterful job in this thread of taking what someone says and then expanding it to fit your agenda. There were certainly others at fault for that series, much like there were others to praise when we won. I will say though that Fleury was been consistently mediocre to poor over the last 3 playoff series. For a supposed franchise "elite" goalie, that is not acceptable.

The defense was at fault in the Philly series as was the PK. The lack of scoring depth was an issue against Montreal and clearly Tampa. But the one constant in all of that is a mediocre, overpaid goaltender.

Time will tell if Tomas Vokoun can outplay Fleury consistently on this team. He has, however, been a more consistently strong goaltender in his career than Fleury.

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01-31-2013, 03:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Vokoun will never be the starter of this team whether he deserves it or not. All the statistical analysis in the world won't put a dent in the Pittsburgh belief that MAF is an elite goalie who just faces more difficult shots than every other goalie.



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01-31-2013, 03:57 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I never said that Fleury was the SOLE reason for them losing. You have done a masterful job in this thread of taking what someone says and then expanding it to fit your agenda. There were certainly others at fault for that series, much like there were others to praise when we won. I will say though that Fleury was been consistently mediocre to poor over the last 3 playoff series. For a supposed franchise "elite" goalie, that is not acceptable.

The defense was at fault in the Philly series as was the PK. The lack of scoring depth was an issue against Montreal and clearly Tampa. But the one constant in all of that is a mediocre, overpaid goaltender.

Time will tell if Tomas Vokoun can outplay Fleury consistently on this team. He has, however, been a more consistently strong goaltender in his career than Fleury.
Get the **** out of here with all that logic Shady. Fleury is elite and is only held back by the fact that he has to face super extra deadly shots. WATCH THE GAMES.

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01-31-2013, 03:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
He's been here since 2005. It's been 8 years now. You're telling me that in all of those 8 years, the Pens' puck management was below average and that's why he never has anything better than middle-of-the pack numbers? I'm sorry, but that just seems like a pretty ridiculous stretch to make.
From 2003 to 2006 the Pens were just a god-awful team. From 2007 to 2009 is when they were playing their best hockey. Since then, I'd argue there's been a slippage in the way the entire team has played in it's own end and managed the puck.


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The only one here trying to give all the blame/credit for wins and losses is you. Nobody else is saying anything close to that. How did you twist my saying "Wins are a team stat" into "Vokoun gets all the credit for wins and Fleury gets all the blame for losses"? Again, just more made up nonsense to paint Fleury as a victim.
You guys actually are saying that though...



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Ah, there it is. I was waiting for it. "Watch the games!". The signature HFBoards remark when someone has run out of valid points to make.
Ah, and there it is! When someone on HFBoards is called out for looking at the stat sheet too much, they try to twist it into someone running out of valid points. In truth, it means they know very little about the game, thus the constant stat quoting.


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Vokoun's individual numbers(and simply watching the Panthers play) would indicate that their losses had nothing to do with goaltending. Why would I need to shelter Vokoun at all? His individual stats are fantastic. If Fleury was putting up .920+ numbers in our losing efforts I would afford him the same leeway. But that isn't happening. Again, I'm looking at individual output. You're the one that keeps bringing it back to team performance and wins/losses.
More stats. It's getting really old. Here's a stat that actually matters:

Fleury: 1
Vokoun: 0


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No I can't say that which is why I haven't said that.But it's also fair to say that Fleury's inconsistencies go back a lot further than the team's horrible puck management.
Ah, but you and the other stat boys continue to ignore it and other glaring problems on the Penguins. Not surprising, because the other problems don't necessarily show up on the stat sheet.

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01-31-2013, 04:00 PM
  #56
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Not to offend anyone in his fan club, but can anyone just agree that Fleury isn't an elite goalie?

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01-31-2013, 04:01 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Gold Diamond View Post
I hate this thread. Of all the problems we have had this year, MAF is not one of them.
SHUT UP! THE STAT SHEET SAYZ HE SUCKS!!!111!!!!!1!!!!one!!!!!11!!!

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01-31-2013, 04:02 PM
  #58
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I'm one of the bigger Fleury skeptics here, but he's been okay from what I've seen (I missed the Islanders game).

Still, I would trade him in a heart beat now that we have Vokoun.

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01-31-2013, 04:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
I'm one of the bigger Fleury skeptics here, but he's been okay from what I've seen (I missed the Islanders game).

Still, I would trade him in a heart beat now that we have Vokoun.
Yeah because Vokoun is so young and will keep the Pens in it for at least the next 5 years!

Want Theissen to back up?

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01-31-2013, 04:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Not to offend anyone in his fan club, but can anyone just agree that Fleury isn't an elite goalie?
Yes. I was once enamored with his talent and thought he would reach that category, but he has **** the bed far too many times in critical games. At this point, I'm not even sure I'd say he is an above average starting goaltender. There really isn't much evidence to support it other than 1 Stanley Cup which is great, but I certainly wouldn't label Niemi as anything other than an average starter.

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01-31-2013, 04:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by shockmaster View Post
shut up! The stat sheet sayz he sucks!!!111!!!!!1!!!!one!!!!!11!!!
shocked by the master!!!!!

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01-31-2013, 04:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Not to offend anyone in his fan club, but can anyone just agree that Fleury isn't an elite goalie?
Can you acknowledge that some of these people just seem focused on stats and that he's no where near as bad they are making him out to be?

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01-31-2013, 04:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
shocked by the master!!!!!
Is there a stat for how many people I've shocked? May you guys can keep track of it since you're all so good at it!

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01-31-2013, 04:08 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Yeah because Vokoun is so young and will keep the Pens in it for at least the next 5 years!

Want Theissen to back up?
Backups aren't hard to find and I do think Vokoun has 5 good years left in him.

If Fleury is so damn valuable he would easily fetch a guy like Kessel or Sharp, right? That would solve several of the Penguin's non-Bylsma problems.

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01-31-2013, 04:10 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Can you acknowledge that some of these people just seem focused on stats and that he's no where near as bad they are making him out to be?
He's not an awful goalie, just an average one in a league full of average goalies.

Philly's defense was just as bad as Pittsburgh's, but it looks bad when you could argue you were outplayed by Ilya Bryzgalov.

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01-31-2013, 04:11 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Backups aren't hard to find and I do think Vokoun has 5 good years left in him.

If Fleury is so damn valuable he would easily fetch a guy like Kessel or Sharp, right? That would solve several of the Penguin's non-Bylsma problems.
There is no guarantee Vokoun has 5 good years left in him. Not every goalie is Brodeur. I'd say 3 years and then he's done but stranger things have happened.

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01-31-2013, 04:12 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Backups aren't hard to find and I do think Vokoun has 5 good years left in him.

If Fleury is so damn valuable he would easily fetch a guy like Kessel or Sharp, right? That would solve several of the Penguin's non-Bylsma problems.
Because the Penguins don't need a Sharp or a Kessel right now, and Fleury isn't the problem with the team.

God, why can't the yinzer mentality just stay on the Stiller forums?

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01-31-2013, 04:14 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
He's not an awful goalie, just an average one in a league full of average goalies.

Philly's defense was just as bad as Pittsburgh's, but it looks bad when you could argue you were outplayed by Ilya Bryzgalov.
Just curious, which other goalies that are considered "elite" do you think are overrated?

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01-31-2013, 04:21 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by The Tang View Post
Watch any of the games he has started this year; MAF have given no reason he should be replaced as starter. Plus, going by the games last year is completely irrelevant; that was last year.
sooo you didn't watch that isles game, eh?

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01-31-2013, 04:22 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Just curious, which other goalies that are considered "elite" do you think are overrated?
hank for me for sure.

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01-31-2013, 04:23 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Just curious, which other goalies that are considered "elite" do you think are overrated?
None, because only a few goalies are actually considered elite, and deserve all the accolades they get.

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01-31-2013, 04:24 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
From 2003 to 2006 the Pens were just a god-awful team. From 2007 to 2009 is when they were playing their best hockey. Since then, I'd argue there's been a slippage in the way the entire team has played in it's own end and managed the puck.
Ok, and...? Yes the team has had ups and downs. Fleury has been inconsistent through all of it.

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You guys actually are saying that though...
No, nobody is saying that. You just turn every criticism into that.

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Ah, and there it is! When someone on HFBoards is called out for looking at the stat sheet too much, they try to twist it into someone running out of valid points. In truth, it means they know very little about the game, thus the constant stat quoting.
"You don't know the game!". Another signature HFBoards cop-out. They're piling up.

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More stats. It's getting really old. Here's a stat that actually matters:

Fleury: 1
Vokoun: 0
Niemi: 1
Lundqvist: 0

Good point.

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Ah, but you and the other stat boys continue to ignore it and other glaring problems on the Penguins. Not surprising, because the other problems don't necessarily show up on the stat sheet.
Nope, just more made up nonsense. Nobody is ignoring anything. Look around the rest of the forum and you'll see these same "stat boys" criticizing the defense, coaching, forwards, etc in the threads that pertain to them. This thread is about goaltending so that's what is being discussed.

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01-31-2013, 04:28 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Can you acknowledge that some of these people just seem focused on stats and that he's no where near as bad they are making him out to be?
How good do you think he is because I certainly don't think he is a bad goaltender. He has been mediocre to bad the last 3 playoffs. He has had strong stretches in his career and has shown that you can win a Stanley Cup with him in net. The question though is does that make him immune to criticism? Or does that mean that Tomas Vokoun is a worse goaltender because he hasn't won a cup? I would say no to both questions.

My opinion is that Fleury overall has not lived up to the 1st overall status (not that I really care about that) and his $5mil cap hit. He is definitely a starting goalie in this league and has shown he can be dominate at times. However, his lows are far too low and far too often to write off. The thing with goalie stats, even save percentage, is that they CAN be influenced by a team's porous defense. They are not a perfect measurement of the quality of a goaltender. However, when you look at an entire career, stats are definitely highly correlated with the quality of goaltender.

Regular Season Stats:

Games Played Wins Win% SV% GAA

Fleury 438 228 .52 .909 2.68
Vokoun 683 288 .42 .917 2.55

Now you look at those stats and tell me which has been the better goaltender over their career. I just looked at the regular season. How is it that Vokoun, who played on a worse team by all accounts throughout his career, has a better GAA and SV% yet has a lower win%? So in the stats where the goalie has the most say in the outcome Vokoun has performed better. This isn't to say that these stats PROVE that Vokoun is a better goalie but given what I have seen over their career, along with these stats, that seems like a reasonable outcome.

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01-31-2013, 04:31 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Ok, and...? Yes the team has had ups and downs. Fleury has been inconsistent through all of it.
Because his stat sheet says so?



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No, nobody is saying that. You just turn every criticism into that.
Yes, actually they are.



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"You don't know the game!". Another signature HFBoards cop-out. They're piling up.
Yes, they are piling up with you. You're really running out of things to say besides quoting the stat sheets.


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Niemi: 1
Lundqvist: 0

Good point.
Kind of sad isn't it? All that skill Hank has and he can't seem to come up in the big moments. He even has 5 other goalies in front of him and can't get it done.



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Nope, just more made up nonsense. Nobody is ignoring anything. Look around the rest of the forum and you'll see these same "stat boys" criticizing the defense, coaching, forwards, etc in the threads that pertain to them. This thread is about goaltending so that's what is being discussed.
So because there's a goaltending thread, it's okay to twist reality and blame everything on Fleury?

Following that logic, I'm going to make a Mario thread and talk about how terrible of a player he was!

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01-31-2013, 04:31 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
Because the Penguins don't need a Sharp or a Kessel right now, and Fleury isn't the problem with the team.

God, why can't the yinzer mentality just stay on the Stiller forums?
Why is everyone that disagrees with you a yinzer?

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