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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr?

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Mario Lemieux 52 27.23%
Bobby Orr 139 72.77%
Voters: 191. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 07:21 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
I've been hearing and debating about the top 4 since I started following hockey about 20 years ago. I know it's my personal list and probably biased, but my top four are:

1. Gretzky
..
..
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
..
4. Howe

It's honestly really hard to compare Lemieux and Orr. I sometimes switch the order between the two because they are so close. Two completely different styles of game, different positions, and two completely different eras. People try to talk about how Orr would dominate in any era - try putting Lemieux back in the 70s. Could you imagine how much bigger, faster, danglier, and more talented he would be compared to ANYONE on the ice? It would be a freak show hockey clinic for the entire NHL.

Don't get me wrong, Orr was freaking amazing at what he did. I've never seen him play live, but I've seen many videos and the guy was a complete player. He did pinch a lot and he was good at providing offense while still making sure the Defense was being taken care of. But if I honestly had to take one of the two players, I would go with Lemieux.
Pinched alot???

You realize no one pinched at all until Orr came around. And even when he did pinch in the zone, he still got back and shut down in his own zone.

Mario as number 2 I don't think so, most have Howe above Mario so not sure how you can even claim him above Orr.

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01-30-2013, 07:30 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Orr. Beyond dominating, playing in a league of his own. Lemieux was fabulous from Centre to the Red Line, no question about it, but he did not control the game to anywhere near the extent that Orr did and often on only one leg.
Lemieux dominated with a bad back & cancer....

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01-30-2013, 07:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Another factor in favor of Orr - he actually had a pretty solid string of consecutive elite seasons, while Lemieux would take seasons off at a time and come back.
pre-1987 I would agree. After that, no. The only thing that stopped him was his back & cancer....

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01-30-2013, 07:41 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
pre-1987 I would agree. After that, no. The only thing that stopped him was his back & cancer....
So how exactly does that differentiate him from Orr and his knees?

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01-30-2013, 07:42 PM
  #105
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Lemeuix was not as good as Gretzky. Period. There were times where he was COMPARABLE to Gretzky. There were even some nights he was even BETTER than Gretzky.
wrong. Lemieux was much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
But the guy never broke even ONE of the 64 official records Gretzky owns. Not even one.
Lemieux's records (or ones that Gretzky didn't beat):

- 5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat) - Not an officially recognized NHL record.
- Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 198889)
- Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)
- Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons
- Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 198889)
- Only player with three 8-point games
- Only player with three 8-point games in one Season
- Four career 5-goal games (shares record)
- Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750 (Mike Bossy is second with .747)
- Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Bossy is first with .762, Cy Denneny is second with .756)

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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Bobby Orr is a much better argument against Lemieux for 2nd best ever.
Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....

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01-30-2013, 07:43 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
So how exactly does that differentiate him from Orr and his knees?
in truth it doesn't, but the way the poster put it made it seem like Lemieux didn't have health issues. Both were crippled by injuries & had careers shortened.

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01-30-2013, 07:47 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
in truth it doesn't, but the way the poster put it made it seem like Lemieux didn't have health issues. Both were crippled by injuries & had careers shortened.
Seemed more like pointing out a meaningful difference between two immensely talented players with injuries that hampered their careers.

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01-30-2013, 07:50 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Seemed more like pointing out a meaningful difference between two immensely talented players with injuries that hampered their careers.
I didn't make the initial statement. Was actually pointing out the same thing you are...

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01-30-2013, 07:57 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....
Consensus among.....whom exactly? Pretty much everything I've seen on the subject Gretzky is the consensus #1 followed by Orr at #2 and Lemieux at #3

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01-30-2013, 08:05 PM
  #110
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Consensus among.....whom exactly? Pretty much everything I've seen on the subject Gretzky is the consensus #1 followed by Orr at #2 and Lemieux at #3
the beauty of these boards. I believe Lemieux was the best ever by a country mile ahead of Orr & the pipsqueak..

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01-30-2013, 08:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post



Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....

I have never ever seen a list by any reputable reporters putting Mario at 1 and Wayne at 3. Every list you see always has

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Mario

In that order and everytime.

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01-30-2013, 08:09 PM
  #112
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
the beauty of these boards. I believe Lemieux was the best ever by a country mile ahead of Orr & the pipsqueak..
Yes, but your belief does not equal "consensus". You're entitled to your belief but in the end it's just that: YOUR belief, not a consensus.


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 01-31-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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01-30-2013, 08:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
I didn't make the initial statement. Was actually pointing out the same thing you are...
Some people care when a player achieve things consecutively, as opposed to with some time off to recoup. That was the point being made, not that Lemieux took time off for fun.

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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
the beauty of these boards. I believe Lemieux was the best ever by a country mile ahead of Orr & the pipsqueak..
And you've got a fellow Pittsburgher who has Lemieux 4th, so do I get to claim consensus too?

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01-30-2013, 09:22 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
wrong. Lemieux was much better.



Lemieux's records (or ones that Gretzky didn't beat):

- 5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat) - Not an officially recognized NHL record.
- Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
- Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)
- Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons
- Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
- Only player with three 8-point games
- Only player with three 8-point games in one Season
- Four career 5-goal games (shares record)
- Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750 (Mike Bossy is second with .747)
- Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Bossy is first with .762, Cy Denneny is second with .756)



Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....
None of those records compare to the ones Gretzky holds. Lemieux isn't even the 3rd best player of all time.

Gretzky, Orr, and Howe were all better. The fact that you think Gretzky is the 3rd best player of all time is embarrassing, 0 credibility.

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01-30-2013, 09:31 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
I have never ever seen a list by any reputable reporters putting Mario at 1 and Wayne at 3. Every list you see always has

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Mario

In that order and everytime.
Simply not true.

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01-31-2013, 12:13 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Simply not true.
Agree, not true.
But it its true that lemieux is almost a consensus #4 among everyone with some sort of background in historical comparisons.

I loved it when that guy claimed that lemieux, Orr, gretzky was consensus when he's literally the only one I've ever seen post such a ranking!

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01-31-2013, 01:15 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
wrong. Lemieux was much better.



Lemieux's records (or ones that Gretzky didn't beat):

- 5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat) - Not an officially recognized NHL record.
- Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
- Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)
- Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons
- Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
- Only player with three 8-point games
- Only player with three 8-point games in one Season
- Four career 5-goal games (shares record)
- Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750 (Mike Bossy is second with .747)
- Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Bossy is first with .762, Cy Denneny is second with .756)



Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....
None of those records are considered "major" in NHL. If someone puts those records to the same category as "Most goals in season." "Most points in career." "Leading the league in assists 13 time." "9x Hart Trophy winner" i can't really say anything.

How is it consensus that Lemieux is first and Gretzky third? I am not sure you know what the word means.

Edit:

I would not want to derail this thread too much but here is the list for Gretzky's record's.

Regular season records (40)

Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most goals, one season, including playoffs: 100 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games
Most goals, 50 games from start of season: 61 in 1981–82 (October 7, 1981 to January 22, 1982, 80-game schedule) and 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 25, 1984), 80-game schedule
Most goals, one period: 4 (Tied with 10 other players) February 18, 1981
Most assists: 1,963
Most assists, including playoffs: 2,223
Most assists, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists, one season, including playoffs: 174 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games
Most assists, one game: 7 (tied with Billy "The Kid" Taylor) on three occasions—February 15, 1980; December 11, 1985; February 14, 1986
Most assists, one road game: 7 (tied with Billy Taylor) December 11, 1985
Most points: 2,857 in 1,487 games (894 goals, 1,963 assists)
Most points, including playoffs: 3,239 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games. (1016 goals, 2223 assists)
Most points, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule (52 goals, 163 assists)
Most points, one season, including playoffs: 255 in 1984–85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games
Most overtime assists, career: 15
Most goals by a center, career: 894
Most goals by a center, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most assists by a center, career: 1,963
Most assists by a center, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most points by a center, career: 2,857
Most points by a center, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists in one game by a player in his first season: 7 on February 15, 1980
Highest goals-per-game average, one season: 1.18 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 games
Highest assists-per-game average, career (300 min.): 1.321 -- 1,963 assists in 1,487 games
Highest assists-per-game average, one season: 2.04 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 games
Highest points-per-game average, one season (among players with 50-or-more points): 2.77 in 1983–84, 205 points in 74 games
Most 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 in 20 seasons
Most consecutive 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 from 1979–80 to 1990–91
Most 50-or-more goal seasons: 9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most 60-or-more goal seasons: 5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most consecutive 60-or-more goals seasons: 4 from 1981–82 to 1984–85
Most 100-or-more point seasons: 15
Most consecutive 100-or-more point seasons: 13 from 1979–80 to 1991–92
Most three-or-more goal games, career: 50 -- 37 three-goal (hat trick) games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games
Most three goal games, one season: 10 (done twice) in 1981–82 and 1983–84
Longest consecutive assist scoring streak: 23 games in 1990–91, 48 assists
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak: 51 Games in 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984, 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points)
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak from start of season: 51 in 1983–84; 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984)
[edit]Playoff records (15)

Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most playoff assists, career: 260
Most assists, one playoff year: 31 in 1988 (19 games)
Most assists in one series (other than final): 14 (tied with Rick Middleton) in 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
Most assists in final series: 10 in 1988 (four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Most assists, one playoff game: 6 (tied with Mikko Leinonen) on April 9, 1987
Most assists, one playoff period: 3 -- Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions, five of them by Gretzky
Most points, career: 382 -- 122 goals and 260 assists
Most points, one playoff year: 47 in 1985 (17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Most points in final series: 13 in 1988 three goals and 10 assists (four games plus suspended game vs. Boston, three goals)
Most points, one playoff period: 4 (tied with nine other players)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983
Most game-winning goals in playoffs, career: 24 (tied with Brett Hull)
Most three-or-more goals games (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
[edit]All-Star records (6)

Most All-Star game goals, career: 13 (in 18 games played)
Most All-Star game goals, one game: 4 (tied with three players) 1983 Campbell Conference
Most All-Star game goals, one period: 4 1983 Campbell Conference, third period
Most All-Star game assists, career: 12 (tied with four others)
Most All-Star game points, career: 25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Most All-Star game points, one period: 4 (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates) 1983 Campbell Conference, third period (four goals)


Last edited by Plural: 01-31-2013 at 01:41 AM.
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01-31-2013, 01:20 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Lemieux never had to compete with a Bossy, Trottier or Lafleur in their prime, either. Heck, even take Gretzky out of the mix during Lemieux's career and his best finish over the 3rd place guy is 28% - nothing remotely close to Gretzky's 69%. But it is a moot point - there are star players across every era, being the best - by a wide margin - is significant. Trying to split hairs and say that Yzerman was better than Trottier or some other foolish argument is irrelevant.

Being the best in the NHL is being the best in the NHL. Period. You can't hold it against a player that X didn't play in his era. Irrelevant because Y did play in his era.
Fair enough. By that measure Gretzky in fact had a significantly higher peak.

I just have hard time of claiming that since i remember both players and have seen them numerous times, trough a screen, but still. I believe that when they both were on their best they were relatively close to each other.

If we are talking about 5, 10, 20 or 80 games period i stand by my words and believe Mario and Gretzky were somewhat close to each others in terms of dominance. Gretzky takes the lead but not with big margin.

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01-31-2013, 01:36 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
wrong. Lemieux was much better.



Lemieux's records (or ones that Gretzky didn't beat):

- 5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat) - Not an officially recognized NHL record.
- Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 198889)
- Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)
- Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons
- Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 198889)
- Only player with three 8-point games
- Only player with three 8-point games in one Season
- Four career 5-goal games (shares record)
- Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750 (Mike Bossy is second with .747)
- Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Bossy is first with .762, Cy Denneny is second with .756)



Bobby Orr is a consensus number two behind Lemieux while Gretzky pulls in third....
You forgot the record for most Cheez Whiz on a single cracker.

Embarrassingly blind homerism. You shouldn't have posted.

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01-31-2013, 01:41 AM
  #120
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You forgot the record for most Cheez Whiz on a single cracker.
I thought I held that record

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01-31-2013, 01:48 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
the beauty of these boards. I believe Lemieux was the best ever by a country mile ahead of Orr & the pipsqueak..
And therein lies the bias and error in judgment. Gretzky does not get near enough the credit he deserves because of two things: 1. His physical stature. 2. His nerdy boyish looks. This attitude started when he came to the NHL and is perpetuating 14 years following him leaving the NHL.

He made the game look so easy it was sick. He had more moves than anyone in the history of the game. Many of them were so slight that it was difficult for the anyone to pick up, never mind an NHL trained defenseman. He was so deceptive. Lemieux beat guys with creative, but easy to see moves using his reach and strength. Just watch the video of Gretzky behind the net setting up 4 goals against Montreal when he was 35 or 36 years old. Nobody could stop him. Nobody at 5-11, 160 pounds has ever dominated hockey the way he did.

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01-31-2013, 02:03 AM
  #122
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I think the problem is that Lemieux was more VISUALLY impressive. If you're a casual fan Lemieux is second only to Orr (maybe even ahead of Orr) in terms of excitement and flash. He had the dekes. He had the breakaways. He had a style that lent itself to highlight reels.

Gretzky is the thinking man's player. I've watched old Oilers games with non-hockey fans and they think Gretzky was nothing special. But if you watch with a careful eye you see that he made plays that were ridiculously effective and almost always very subtle. That was one of Gretzky's greatest assets. He was a very subtle player in comparison to the flashy Jagr, Bure or Lemieux.

There's a distinct difference between quality and enjoyability. I enjoy the hell out of watching prime Lindros. He's probably my favorite player to watch. Far from being the best ever though.

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01-31-2013, 02:41 AM
  #123
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Mario wanted to quit in the 90s because he had enough with the "rough stuff" in the game. Could you imagine how much he would have had to put up with in the 70s?
it's kind of funny. imagine if gretzky retired after the 1991 canada cup and said, "i've got money in the bank, i've proved that i am the best by winning cups and scoring championships and MVPs. my back hurts, i quit. sick of people hitting me. garage league." all of the mario fan boys would be all "little weakling could never hack it in bigger tougher league, dominated bad competition."

but mario does exactly that, then comes back because his deferred salary was in jeopardy-- team was going to go bankrupt, money owed to him became equity in the team-- and he had put butts in the seats to save it. and yet we're all, "mario could have dominated any era," which is true but did he really have the temperament to play in all eras? if he shared an ice with eddie shore or sprague cleghorn, he would have packed up his toys and gone home so fast...

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01-31-2013, 04:39 PM
  #124
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Agree, not true.
But it its true that lemieux is almost a consensus #4 among everyone with some sort of background in historical comparisons.

I loved it when that guy claimed that lemieux, Orr, gretzky was consensus when he's literally the only one I've ever seen post such a ranking!
You confuse me here. You say what I said is not true but than turn around and agree with what I said that Mario is 4th. What is untrue in my remark if you happen to agree with what I said?

Some lists have Orr above Wayne? Some lists have Howe above Orr? Is that what you were referring to? If that what you were hinting at, than I would agree with you. I was mostly making my statement at the guy that thought Mario was the best and Wayne somehow made it down to 3 and telling us it was a consensuses.

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01-31-2013, 04:45 PM
  #125
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it's kind of funny. imagine if gretzky retired after the 1991 canada cup and said, "i've got money in the bank, i've proved that i am the best by winning cups and scoring championships and MVPs. my back hurts, i quit. sick of people hitting me. garage league." all of the mario fan boys would be all "little weakling could never hack it in bigger tougher league, dominated bad competition."

but mario does exactly that, then comes back because his deferred salary was in jeopardy-- team was going to go bankrupt, money owed to him became equity in the team-- and he had put butts in the seats to save it. and yet we're all, "mario could have dominated any era," which is true but did he really have the temperament to play in all eras? if he shared an ice with eddie shore or sprague cleghorn, he would have packed up his toys and gone home so fast...

Very nice sir, you deserve an award for this post. Nice points.

I too wonder why more is not made of Mario's whining and quitting when he did. Plus his timing for coming back. I liked watching Mario play more than I did Wayne but only because he was more physical. However, I viewed him as ***** when he came out crying about how the game was played. He became a bigger ***** to me when as an owner he cried about the Islanders last year.

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