HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Notices

The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXI - Nobody Loves Raymond Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-31-2013, 03:06 PM
  #701
Alflives
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Vancouver doesn't have any players like Kessel, dude is being very undersold in this weird hypothetical discussion where all parties seem to agree a trade isn't possible.
Kesler, Burrows, Booth, and even Raymond provide similar dimensions to a team. All these players, like Kessel, use speed on the rush to force opponents D to move back, creating a gap (between the opponent's D and their back checking forwards) where late coming teammates can fill, uncovered.

Alflives is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 03:06 PM
  #702
dave babych returns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,936
vCash: 500
Yep (edit: @tant).

Not to mention if the Canucks could somehow come out of a deal with Sedin/Sedin/whoever and whoever/Kesler/Kessel as their top six they'd essentially have two first lines.

There'd be a ton of work to do in order to compensate for the lack of size and physicality in three of those four players, and it would be a cap nightmare down the line, but it would be quite the 1-2 punch.

But as everyone knows it's not happening.

dave babych returns is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 03:38 PM
  #703
PRNuck
Wow. What a day.
 
PRNuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Kesler, Burrows, Booth, and even Raymond provide similar dimensions to a team. All these players, like Kessel, use speed on the rush to force opponents D to move back, creating a gap (between the opponent's D and their back checking forwards) where late coming teammates can fill, uncovered.
He's scored 30 goals four seasons in a row on terrible teams, not even Kesler provides that dimension.

PRNuck is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 05:19 PM
  #704
Vandelay Industries
Registered User
 
Vandelay Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 219
vCash: 500
Dont think Kessel is a good fit with the Canucks. Hes a shoot first player from what ive seen, and he doesnt fit the bigger mold that gillis has been trying to bring in.

Vandelay Industries is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 05:31 PM
  #705
TheDiver*
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Northwest
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
He's scored 30 goals four seasons in a row on terrible teams, not even Kesler provides that dimension.
He would help on the Powerplay. The Canucks are 7 for 37 right now.

TheDiver* is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 05:34 PM
  #706
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
He's scored 30 goals four seasons in a row on terrible teams, not even Kesler provides that dimension.
Well, Kesler hasn't been on "terrible teams" at this point (though they might be playing terrible at the moment) so we won't know how many goals he could score if he didn't have to pay attention to defense.

Barney Gumble is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 05:55 PM
  #707
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 16,672
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
What does Kessel bring to the Canucks that they don't have already?
Skill
Quote:
He is not a fit for the current Vancouver roster.
No perfect but he'd be a good start. Not that I can see him being traded this year. Frattin and Kadri will slow at some point and Kessel will heat up and reality will resume.

me2 is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:01 PM
  #708
33
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,881
vCash: 50
So you guys want Kessel to play with Kesler? That's ridiculous, they wouldn't be a match at all, both of them are shoot first players. Kessel is simply to expensive both cap wise and value wise for this team to bring in. Trading for Kessel ultimately puts Vancouver in cap hell next year. Cups are won by depth, not by 3-4 star players are no supporting cast.

33 is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:01 PM
  #709
Cogburn
Trixie Hobbitses
 
Cogburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,573
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandelay Industries View Post
Dont think Kessel is a good fit with the Canucks. Hes a shoot first player from what ive seen, and he doesnt fit the bigger mold that gillis has been trying to bring in.
He isn't perfect, but if we can't find/fill that perfect fit, Kessel as a playmaking winger could do well as well. His play picked up with another "shoot first" player in Lupul, at least as far as over all points were concerned, and Kesler is better then Lupul.

As for bigger and younger, I think we've started to get there. Last year's acquisitions of Weise, Booth and Kassian got us some younger players that play big. Garrison and Volpatti are not huge, but they play big.

Kessel is young still, being in his mid twenties, but big...well I have to grant you that. Having nothing but big, young additions though...well San Jose was desperate for speed in their top six until Havlat got back, with Clowe and Thornton and Pavelski and Couture...multi faceted teams are more dangerous.

Cogburn is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:12 PM
  #710
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
So you guys want Kessel to play with Kesler? That's ridiculous, they wouldn't be a match at all, both of them are shoot first players.
Kessel has been so awful these past few years playing on lines with shoot first players like Lupul and Kulemin. And Kesler has been really terrible with shoot first players like Samuelsson and Booth on his line.

Quote:
Kessel is simply to expensive both cap wise and value wise for this team to bring in. Trading for Kessel ultimately puts Vancouver in cap hell next year. Cups are won by depth, not by 3-4 star players are no supporting cast.
Swapping David Booth for Phil Kessel does almost nothing to the team's depth and adds a hell of a lot of skill.

I think it's completely unrealistic to think he's traded, but people are kidding themselves if he wouldn't be a huge improvement here.

pitseleh is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:12 PM
  #711
pahlsson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 6,182
vCash: 50
idk where all this kessel talk came from since we don't have the trade pieces for him but he would provide much needed skill to the top 6. unfortunately (and even leafs fans have noted this) he's soft as **** and tends to disappear against bigger, better teams, so he might not help as much as we'd hope.

pahlsson is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:37 PM
  #712
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,299
vCash: 5158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Kessel could do all those things if he were allowed to. In the playoffs, he would be the first guy blanketed by a hulking Dman or a mammoth checker. His skill is great...if he's allowed to showcase it that is. I'd prefer the guy doing the blanketing.


Good point about the "hackey" quotes though. Higher TV ratings.
Just to note. His playoff resume is quite impressive

15: 9-6-15

Granted, this was with Boston but he has improved notably since then. Kesler and Burrows have no issues with the physical side of the game and Burrows versatility would be a compliment for Kessel. I also disagree he is unsustainable. Kessel would not be under the limelight here and we can certainly afford him come two years.

I want Kessel because he and Kesler could very easily take the reign from the Sedins when the inevitable comes. Neither would be as good but the transition is made much easier.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:45 PM
  #713
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,299
vCash: 5158
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Kessel has been so awful these past few years playing on lines with shoot first players like Lupul and Kulemin. And Kesler has been really terrible with shoot first players like Samuelsson and Booth on his line.



Swapping David Booth for Phil Kessel does almost nothing to the team's depth and adds a hell of a lot of skill.

I think it's completely unrealistic to think he's traded, but people are kidding themselves if he wouldn't be a huge improvement here.
I am going to reiterate what I posted on the main board.

"I believe there is one thing we are neglecting here. Kesler is capable of adopting the playmaking role - evident by his 50 assists. One of the primary reasons I suspect he refrained from doing so afterward is a lack of trust in his linemates. He particularly had to do everything otherwise the line would not score. Kessel is a legitimate goal scorer and infinitely superior to anyone Kesler plays with consistently, relatively speaking. I do not see the two having any difficulty long term."

The play died on Raymond and Samuelsson's stick nearly every time. We knew and Kesler knew, that if anything was going to translate from the second line. It would only happen if he did it himself. Kessel is a completely different player, and one I believe Kesler would be comfortable passing to. Furthermore, Lupul was not an issue for Kessel, Grabovski was due to his style. Unlike Kesler, Grabs does not possess any playmaking capabilities and prefers wingers to setup their own play.

Kessel's passing and playmaking is being incredibly undervalued here. He may not dazzle anyone nor is it his go to tactic. But he is far from bad at either.


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 01-31-2013 at 06:52 PM.
Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:52 PM
  #714
monster_bertuzzi
registered user
 
monster_bertuzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
On the 2nd line? I'm not sure what exactly the confusion here is and how he's redundant. Offensively he's an upgrade on everyone but the Sedins and Kesler.
He's better than Kesler offensively.

monster_bertuzzi is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 06:57 PM
  #715
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,299
vCash: 5158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Kessel is a fine player, who will need to play on the top 2 lines. When Kesler and Booth come back, where does Kessel play? Who gets moved down the line-up? I still see Kessel as redundant in Vancouver.
Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Burrows - Kesler - Kessel
Raymond - Schroeder - Booth
Higgins - Lapierre/Malhotra - Hansen

There you go. And before someone asks. Yes we can afford the cap, provided Alberts is claimed off waivers or we dump Lapierre or Malhotra.

In terms of offensive capabilities. Only Daniel is better than Kessel; overall the Sedins and Kesler surpass him. He is far from redundant.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 07:20 PM
  #716
vanuck
Griffiths Way Goons
 
vanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 9,265
vCash: 250
Bit of a chicken-and-egg thing too though, no? If Kesler doesn't pass, his wingers aren't going to do as well. Like a vicious cycle, almost.

vanuck is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 07:31 PM
  #717
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,299
vCash: 5158
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Bit of a chicken-and-egg thing too though, no? If Kesler doesn't pass, his wingers aren't going to do as well. Like a vicious cycle, almost.
Not necessarily. He passes if he has confidence they can create a scoring chance. We saw glimpses of it last year with Higgins and Booth. Both were capability of crashing the net and opening up opportunities, so Kesler passed. Kessel would bring a different eleent but is undoubtedly capable of creating offense.

What also needs to be taken into consideration is how the opposition responses? Kesler is their sole target because he is infinitely more dangerous. If we iced Burrows/Kesler/Kessel, the dynamic changes. They cannot focus on just Kesler because leaving Kessel open is far more likely to burn you than Booth.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:03 PM
  #718
LiquidSnake
Agent of Chaos...
 
LiquidSnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,528
vCash: 883
Tanev & Raymond for Clifford

LiquidSnake is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:15 PM
  #719
Sergei Shirokov
Registered User
 
Sergei Shirokov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
So you guys want Kessel to play with Kesler? That's ridiculous, they wouldn't be a match at all, both of them are shoot first players. Kessel is simply to expensive both cap wise and value wise for this team to bring in. Trading for Kessel ultimately puts Vancouver in cap hell next year. Cups are won by depth, not by 3-4 star players are no supporting cast.
This guy has got it right, we have enough offensively and we have depth.

Kessel wouldn't be a good fit and he would be terrible for us long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Sedin - Sedin - Kassian
Burrows - Kesler - Kessel
Raymond - Schroeder - Booth
Higgins - Lapierre/Malhotra - Hansen

There you go. And before someone asks. Yes we can afford the cap, provided Alberts is claimed off waivers or we dump Lapierre or Malhotra.

In terms of offensive capabilities. Only Daniel is better than Kessel; overall the Sedins and Kesler surpass him. He is far from redundant.
What happens next season?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
Tanev & Raymond for Clifford
Nah, Tanev is a huge part of our team, Raymond has been playing well and Kassian has the demension Clifford brings + more skill IMO.

Sergei Shirokov is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:18 PM
  #720
LiquidSnake
Agent of Chaos...
 
LiquidSnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,528
vCash: 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post



Nah, Tanev is a huge part of our team, Raymond has been playing well and Kassian has the demension Clifford brings + more skill IMO.
You can't just rely on one guy to bring the toughness. Tanev is a huge part right now because he's the only one that has played all season. Clifford has toughness and skill that could be put on a different line.

I see him as a career bottom pairing guy who could be sold "high" right now.

LiquidSnake is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:22 PM
  #721
Tiranis
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,185
vCash: 500
They had no interest in Clifford for Hodgson, why would they take Tanev and Raymond? They value Clifford very highly.

Tiranis is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:49 PM
  #722
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,040
vCash: 500
That's 3 pages of talking about Kessel. Why? He isn't even remotely available. They wouldn't trade him right after re-signing Lupul, and if they did I suspect it would cost us both Jensen and Kassian.

Why don't we drop it and discuss more realistic options?

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
01-31-2013, 08:55 PM
  #723
Sergei Shirokov
Registered User
 
Sergei Shirokov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
You can't just rely on one guy to bring the toughness. Tanev is a huge part right now because he's the only one that has played all season. Clifford has toughness and skill that could be put on a different line.

I see him as a career bottom pairing guy who could be sold "high" right now.
I can't see him as a career bottom pair guy, his reliability and steadyness alone already has him as a top 4 capable player, and he has been getting alot stronger. You can already see an huge improvement from prior years. As long as Tanev continues to get strong I don't think he will have any problem becoming a top 4 guy.

We do have other guys who supply toughness, Volpatti, Weise, Lappierre, Bieksa, Ballard, I would even throw Garrison in there now.

Our team has gotten alot tougher, even guys like Booth and Kesler won't be pushed around, I'm not too worried, we have made improvements, I think our toughness issue continues to be over exaggerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
They had no interest in Clifford for Hodgson, why would they take Tanev and Raymond? They value Clifford very highly.
Yeah I'm happy we didn't do it, would rather Kassian myself, a better skater, more offense and higher upside IMO.

Sergei Shirokov is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 09:02 PM
  #724
Verviticus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,929
vCash: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Bit of a chicken-and-egg thing too though, no? If Kesler doesn't pass, his wingers aren't going to do as well. Like a vicious cycle, almost.
yeah dude they're gonna put these elite hockey players all on a line and they're just gonna skate at the goal and forget they have linemates because they're actually robots beep boop he did not pass to me i do not pass to him push puck at goal

Verviticus is online now  
Old
01-31-2013, 09:02 PM
  #725
Verviticus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,929
vCash: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
That's 3 pages of talking about Kessel. Why? He isn't even remotely available. They wouldn't trade him right after re-signing Lupul, and if they did I suspect it would cost us both Jensen and Kassian.

Why don't we drop it and discuss more realistic options?
this is a forum. we arent gms. who the **** cares?

Verviticus is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.