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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers SLOP FEST!!!

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Old
01-31-2013, 10:02 PM
  #176
Darth Vitale
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Is it St. Louis we're comparing ourselves too? They play the way the Penguins THINK they play. They're a pain to play against, skate hard all the time, and minimize chances. The last few years we've played like that mostly in the regular season and it's not unusual for us to lose and look bad trying to play that game. The playoffs, well god knows how we play.
STL would pummel us in a playoff series if it started tomorrow.

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01-31-2013, 10:03 PM
  #177
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Maybe it's one of those 2 week flues.
Hey Man, I've had mine for a week now. Could be

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01-31-2013, 10:03 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Is it St. Louis we're comparing ourselves too? They play the way the Penguins THINK they play. They're a pain to play against, skate hard all the time, and minimize chances. The last few years we've played like that mostly in the regular season and it's not unusual for us to lose and look bad trying to play that game. The playoffs, well god knows how we play.
I remember Hitchcock talking about how certain teams broke the puck out of their own end. Referring to us in particular, how he studied it.

Well, it appears the student has become the master b/c we look like ******* compared to them.

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01-31-2013, 10:04 PM
  #179
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I'm loving Tomas Vokoun. Not many goalies are more efficient with their movements; he never slides too far, never flails, never even blinks.

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01-31-2013, 10:04 PM
  #180
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You mean the Tortorella who's team was in the conference finals last year?

You mean the Laviolette who's team in his three full years has never failed to make the second round and would get bounced only by a cup finalist or winner?

In golf, there's a saying: You shoot for show, and you putt for dough. Well, Bylsma has proven to be quite the shooter.
Jesus Kirk,

Rags went to TWO seven game series against inferior teams and had nothing left for round 3.

And you're really reaching with Laviolette. They got swept by Boston and looked terrible doing it, prompting them to trade two core players who eventually helped the Kings win the Stanley Cup. If I wanted to mess with you and play your game, I could argue that Richards and Carter weren't properly nurtured by Lavs and needed another coach to push the right buttons. I'm almost positive that's what you would do.

And Jersey ran them over last year in their series to boot. You're acting like they brought Jersey and Boston to the brink during their last two eliminations.

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01-31-2013, 10:05 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yes. Those are the coaches I'd like you to ask if competence is too much to expect at this point of the season.
I love it when someone chucks out a straw man argument, because implicit in your suggestion is that there's no difference in the bodies of work among Bylsma, Torts, and Lavs in the last 25 games.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I value success in the playoffs more highly than you do. Not a problem.

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01-31-2013, 10:06 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
STL would pummel us in a playoff series if it started tomorrow.
The only way that series happens is in the finals. Put another way, with Bylsma as coach, the discussion is academic and nothing more.

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01-31-2013, 10:07 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Jesus Kirk,

Rags went to TWO seven game series against inferior teams and had nothing left for round 3.

And you're really reaching with Laviolette. They got swept by Boston and looked terrible doing it, prompting them to trade two core players who eventually helped the Kings win the Stanley Cup. If I wanted to mess with you and play your game, I could argue that Richards and Carter weren't properly nurtured by Lavs and needed another coach to push the right buttons. I'm almost positive that's what you would do.

And Jersey ran them over last year in their series to boot. You're acting like they brought Jersey and Boston to the brink during their last two eliminations.
Hey, don't blame me for the argument. Blame Bylsma. He's made me desperate to see the Pens win one playoff round.

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01-31-2013, 10:08 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I love it when someone chucks out a straw man argument, because implicit in your suggestion is that there's no difference in the bodies of work among Bylsma, Torts, and Lavs in the last 25 games.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I value success in the playoffs more highly than you do. Not a problem.
It's not a straw man, KIRK. We aren't talking about bodies of work right now, we're talking about whether competence is too much to expect from a team at this point of the season.

Clearly, it is for the Rangers and Flyers. And their ballyhooed coaches.

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01-31-2013, 10:09 PM
  #185
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The only way that series happens is in the finals. Put another way, with Bylsma as coach, the discussion is academic and nothing more.
Of course. My point is, if someone is trying to compare those two teams... while the intent may be similar the execution and depth are not close right now. Nor is the coaching.

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01-31-2013, 10:09 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Is it St. Louis we're comparing ourselves too? They play the way the Penguins THINK they play. They're a pain to play against, skate hard all the time, and minimize chances. The last few years we've played like that mostly in the regular season and it's not unusual for us to lose and look bad trying to play that game. The playoffs, well god knows how we play.
And for all the good St. Louis did in the regular season, they got the same treatment in getting swept that the new guy in the prison shower gets.

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01-31-2013, 10:09 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
It's not a straw man, KIRK. We aren't talking about bodies of work right now, we're talking about whether competence is too much to expect from a team at this point of the season.

Clearly, it is for the Rangers and Flyers. And their ballyhooed coaches.
See, you consider the only body of work that's relevant to be seven games. Some of your fellow Bylsma kool-aid drinkers want to go back four years. Anything in between-- like asking 'what have you done for me lately in the playoffs'-- is deemed unfair to ask.

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01-31-2013, 10:11 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Of course. My point is, if someone is trying to compare those two teams... while the intent may be similar the execution and depth are not close right now. Nor is the coaching.
But, STL got swept in the second round by the Kings. How can you forget that? How can you ignore that arguments absolving effect on Bylsma?

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01-31-2013, 10:11 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
See, you consider the only body of work that's relevant to be seven games. Some of your fellow Bylsma kool-aid drinkers want to go back four years. Anything in between-- like asking 'what have you done for me lately in the playoffs'-- is deemed unfair to ask.
Even though it's not the subject at the moment, maybe you should check the records of the Rangers and Flyers the last 25 games.

You may be surprised to learn they're both worse than the Pens.

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Old
01-31-2013, 10:11 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Even though it's not the subject at the moment, maybe you should check the records of the Rangers and Flyers the last 25 games.

They might surprise you.
In the regular season or the games that really count?

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01-31-2013, 10:12 PM
  #191
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+Crosby's vicious, life altering, career threatening slewfoot on Gaborik

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01-31-2013, 10:12 PM
  #192
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In the regular season or the games that really count?
When you compare DB to Therrien they both have equal value, so I'm not sure why that should change now.

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01-31-2013, 10:13 PM
  #193
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Crosby and Boychuk are going to light it up together, you heard it here first.

Disclaimer: I may or may not be drunk.

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01-31-2013, 10:14 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And for all the good St. Louis did in the regular season, they got the same treatment in getting swept that the new guy in the prison shower gets.
As someone else already mentioned, we didn't look too strong in our first go round when we were still growing either. Plus their goalie stats must speak to you in terms of how their whole team plays. Ours never looked like that.

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01-31-2013, 10:18 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
But, STL got swept in the second round by the Kings. How can you forget that? How can you ignore that arguments absolving effect on Bylsma?
I never absolve Bylsma. I just think it's gotten cartoonish as to how much blame he gets.

It's gotten to the point where I'm starting to think people believe he has a wireless controller behind the bench.

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01-31-2013, 10:18 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
When you compare DB to Therrien they both have equal value, so I'm not sure why that should change now.
I compared the end of Therrien's tenure and Bylsma's recent tenure in terms of on ice product. So, you've really lost me now.

Look, you think Bylsma should get another playoff run and, depending upon how it ends and if there's a convenient excuse, more. I don't think it should be automatic.

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01-31-2013, 10:20 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
When you compare DB to Therrien they both have equal value, so I'm not sure why that should change now.
Oh, Eller's his whipping boy right now. Winger, center, center, winger, healthy scratch.

Desharnais continues to get ice time when he's the one who deserves a sitting down more than anyone besides White...

...who takes a stupid misconduct penalty that basically, according to Therrien "Took our legs from under us", and there he is, back on the ice, 3 minutes later.

And speaking of line juggling after things went south against Ottawa...

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01-31-2013, 10:20 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I never absolve Bylsma. I just think it's gotten cartoonish as to how much blame he gets.

It's gotten to the point where I'm starting to think people believe he has a wireless controller behind the bench.
Any positive display of control would be sufficient . . .

Seriously, this was a baby step in the right direction. At the same time, tell me what YOU think: First step in a turnaround or just as likely an uptick in a downward trend (no different than wins against San Jose, Anaheim, NYR in Therrien's last fifteen games as coach)? Would you even concede that either is possible?

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01-31-2013, 10:22 PM
  #199
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Late to the party...watched the game from the start after working through the first two periods.

+ Despres. He's still inconsistent out there - he plays with a little too much confidence in the defensive zone sometimes and the penalty was a weak one to take...but outside of those two plays he was in position, he was making proper passes, he was playing generally a smart game...and that backhand was perfect. Overall a great game and he's already showing marked improvement from the start of the season.
+ Neal. That deflection was Crosby-esque.
+ Adams. For as much derision as he's taken, and likely will continue to get around here...he's been far closer to the Adams he was during the Cup run and following season than the Adams that deserved the derision from last year. PKing ace.
+ Cooke. He had at least two opportunities to surgically remove a Rangers' head from their shoulders and instead went for a little bump...his mere presence through the players off. His game itself wasn't anything to write home about outside of some great work on the PK, but this is the kind of game that convinces me that he actually has changed.
+ Vokoun. So positionally sound. The Rangers didn't have many great chances today, but they also didn't get any random good chances because of the goalie taking himself out of the play. It's so nice to have a goalie who's always where he should be.

- The game. Blech. Two sloppy teams trying to out-suck each other.
- The Rangers. They just look awful right now. Even less chemistry than what we have. The Penguins didn't play a good game tonight and the 3-0 score was still deserved based on how much worse the Rangers looked out there.
- The NY Rangers announcers...the NHL Network uses the home team's feed and I suddenly understand why so many Rangers fans are the way they are. Every time a Penguin fell down they were "trying to call a penalty", every time a Ranger fell down "that could have been a penalty". Come on. The dumbest thing was the lengthy rant against Crosby for not getting why he was looking at the ref after being checked into the boards - I agree with the non-call by the ref, but Del Zotto's left hand was on the #8 as he rode Crosby into the boards...far lesser plays have been called boarding this year. It's pretty easy to understand why Crosby looked at the ref. He didn't bark at the ref, he didn't complain to the ref, he never even opened his mouth...he just looked at him.

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01-31-2013, 10:24 PM
  #200
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Maybe you guys should read what Flyers fans are saying, it's eerily similar to criticism among here.

IE; Lava is not patient enough with the young players (shifting B Schenn and Coots around the lineup), ineffective PP, relying too much on vets.

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