HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Calgary Flames
Notices

Where's the grit?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-31-2013, 11:11 PM
  #26
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
All the grit the Hawks have is on their 3rd line. Everything else they have is skill + determination + Toews.
I would say that Toews is a pretty gritty player as well as a highly skilled one. Ditto with Sharp. Versteeg, Brouwer, and Ladd all spent time in the top-6, and they're pretty gritty with some skill.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:14 PM
  #27
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I would say that Toews is a pretty gritty player as well as a highly skilled one. Ditto with Sharp. Versteeg, Brouwer, and Ladd all spent time in the top-6, and they're pretty gritty with some skill.
They don't play there anymore


Last edited by TheHudlinator: 01-31-2013 at 11:22 PM.
TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:18 PM
  #28
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I disagree most you win with skill some you win with grit, my main point is who would you add and take away?
You can disagree with me, but you haven't exactly proven your point that skill is the sole element that leads to wins. I showed evidence that the best teams in the league have skill, grit, and toughness.

And who could have the Flames added in the off-season? For starters, Daniel Winnik was one guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. I thought he was the type of 3rd/4th liner the team could use - tough, physical player with some skill and who is a very good penalty killer. I've always thought Winnik was undervalued by many.

Paul Gaustad would have been a great addition, although Nashville did overpay to re-sign him.

I've been a fan of Greg Zanon for a while. He's a gritty, bottom-pairing defenceman who could play in the top-4 if necessary. I'd take Zanon over Butler and Smith any day.

Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. He's a 4th-line centre, but he wins faceoffs, kills penalties, and is very physical. He would have been an ideal role player, and definitely an upgrade over any of the Flames' current 4th liners.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:19 PM
  #29
tfong
Registered User
 
tfong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I would say that Toews is a pretty gritty player as well as a highly skilled one. Ditto with Sharp. Versteeg, Brouwer, and Ladd all spent time in the top-6, and they're pretty gritty with some skill.
But those are examples of drafting skill and getting the grit as a bonus. I think aside from Brouwer, all those players originally started off as skilled draftees that later added grit to their game (might be wrong on the Ladd one though).

I specifically used the word determination as I believe nobody really classifies Toews as gritty, but more so determined in that he will play however style in order to win. So he can play skill or gritty.

Most times when you get a "gritty" player that is all they can do and we don't really want that as you can see from our last 4-5 years.

Btw Yakupov is someone that is skilled and comes with grit

tfong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:19 PM
  #30
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
They don't play their anymore
It's "there" not "their".

And I thought Fong was referring to the 'Hawks' Cup run.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:21 PM
  #31
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
But those are examples of drafting skill and getting the grit as a bonus. I think aside from Brouwer, all those players originally started off as skilled draftees that later added grit to their game (might be wrong on the Ladd one though).

I specifically used the word determination as I believe nobody really classifies Toews as gritty, but more so determined in that he will play however style in order to win. So he can play skill or gritty.

Most times when you get a "gritty" player that is all they can do and we don't really want that as you can see from our last 4-5 years.
That's fair. But like I said, you still need grit on your team to win games. You're original post basically supported my original premise - that the best teams do have gritty players. I never said that these players have to be top-6 forwards; I just said that teams need them. IMO, the Flames don't have enough of those guys - those grinders who crash and bang and who go hard to the net. It's great to score pretty goals, but teams also need guys who will score the dirty goals. The Flames don't have many of these players.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:22 PM
  #32
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
You can disagree with me, but you haven't exactly proven your point that skill is the sole element that leads to wins. I showed evidence that the best teams in the league have skill, grit, and toughness.

And who could have the Flames added in the off-season? For starters, Daniel Winnik was one guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. I thought he was the type of 3rd/4th liner the team could use - tough, physical player with some skill and who is a very good penalty killer. I've always thought Winnik was undervalued by many.

Paul Gaustad would have been a great addition, although Nashville did overpay to re-sign him.

I've been a fan of Greg Zanon for a while. He's a gritty, bottom-pairing defenceman who could play in the top-4 if necessary. I'd take Zanon over Butler and Smith any day.

Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. He's a 4th-line centre, but he wins faceoffs, kills penalties, and is very physical. He would have been an ideal role player, and definitely an upgrade over any of the Flames' current 4th liners.
You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:23 PM
  #33
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
It's "there" not "their".

And I thought Fong was referring to the 'Hawks' Cup run.
My bad clearly I need some toughness to spell

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:27 PM
  #34
flameaholic
FOREVER a Flame!
 
flameaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
He have Glencross and Iginla(kinda)
You think Iginla is gritty? This ain't 2004.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Who could we have got that added grit tho? Ott? we didn't have a center the Stars would want.
We could have offered your man crush Matt Stajan!

flameaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:31 PM
  #35
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.
Detroit turned things around when Datsyuk transformed his game. He got tougher and started instigating hits rather than taking them.

The Wings also had Cleary, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, and Drake upfront, and Franzen, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson were tough players. Franzen and Holmstrom, in particular, did a lot of dirty work in front of the net and on the boards. On defence, they had Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios, and Lilja.

The Penguins had Kunitz, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Kennedy, Guerin, Adams, Orpik, Scuderi, Gill, and Eaton.

On the Flames, who's gritty? Glencross, Jackman, Begin, and Sarich. You could possibly add Giordano. That's it.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:34 PM
  #36
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
You think Iginla is gritty? This ain't 2004.



We could have offered your man crush Matt Stajan!
your blind hatred for Stajan is almost as funny as you wanting to remake the flames under Sutter. You think Stajan is equal to Roy

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:35 PM
  #37
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Detroit turned things around when Datsyuk transformed his game. He got tougher and started instigating hits rather than taking them.

The Wings also had Cleary, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, and Drake upfront, and Franzen, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson were tough players. Franzen and Holmstrom, in particular, did a lot of dirty work in front of the net and on the boards. On defence, they had Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios, and Lilja.

The Penguins had Kunitz, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Kennedy, Guerin, Adams, Orpik, Scuderi, Gill, and Eaton.

On the Flames, who's gritty? Glencross, Jackman, Begin, and Sarich. You could possibly add Giordano. That's it.
Butler, Widemen are as gritty as some of the players you listed as is Comeau and Stempniak isn't far behind guys like Kennedy. And since when was Lebda gritty? If that is gritty then so is Sven

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:39 PM
  #38
flameaholic
FOREVER a Flame!
 
flameaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign.
Konopka is a guy I wanted the Flames to sign as well. Instead we re-signed Blake Comeau and later added Steve Begin. Matt Carkner is another. Anyone is an upgrade over Butler.

Cam Janssen was recently on waivers. He could have brought some energy to this team. Trevor Gillies is/was recently playing in the KHL. Heck, even Sean Avery would bring an element of toughness to this team.

The Flames are currently the softest team in the league. It's no wonder why we're the only team without a fight in the league. We don't scare anybody!

flameaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:41 PM
  #39
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
Konopka is a guy I wanted the Flames to sign as well. Instead we re-signed Blake Comeau and later added Steve Begin. Matt Carkner is another.

Cam Janssen was recently on waivers. He could have brought some energy to this team. Trevor Gillies is/was recently playing in the KHL. Heck, even Sean Avery could bring an element of toughness to this team.

The Flames are currently the softest team in the league. It's no wonder why we're the only team without a fight in the league. We don't scare anybody!
So we are losing because we don't have a tough guy on the 4th line? This is crazy, are we soft? yes but a fighter isn't the solution to fixing this team.

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:42 PM
  #40
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.
Oh yeah, actually, I gave you more than one example - I gave you several. And when you look at that Penguins team that won the Cup, they didn't have a lot of players that were skilled and gritty. Actually, that team had more grit than overall skill.

The Bruins and Kings won the Cup because they were big and physical up and down their lineup. They had some skilled players, but they wore down Vancouver and New Jersey, respectively. You name Lucic, but he wasn't the only one. The Bruins' third line that year of Kelly, Peverley, and Paille were very instrumental in the Bruins' Cup run.

Obviously, it would be great to have such teams. I just wished that Feaster would have tried to create more balance on the team. It was clear that the team needed more skill, but I think he went too far and completely neglected the importance of toughness and grit. It's a little surprising since Feaster put together a well-balanced team in Tampa Bay as he complemented Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, and Boyle with players like Fedotenko, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Lukowich, Sarich, Kubina, Cullimore, Pratt, and Andre Roy. At the very least, he could have added more toughness on the backend.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:44 PM
  #41
FLAMES666
Retrofit not Rebuild
 
FLAMES666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,264
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
If that is gritty then so is Sven
Whats so funny, he actually is gritty. More so then some of the guys mentioned. I actually don't even know how Wideman and Butler are being mentioned as gritty, probably the furthest from it.

FLAMES666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:45 PM
  #42
flameaholic
FOREVER a Flame!
 
flameaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
your blind hatred for Stajan is almost as funny as you wanting to remake the flames under Sutter. You think Stajan is equal to Roy
You're the one that had him pegged as our #1 center, not me. If your team's "#1 center" can't net a 3rd liner like Steve Ott, you know you're in trouble.

flameaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:45 PM
  #43
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Oh yeah, actually, I gave you more than one example - I gave you several. And when you look at that Penguins team that won the Cup, they didn't have a lot of players that were skilled and gritty. Actually, that team had more grit than overall skill.

The Bruins and Kings won the Cup because they were big and physical up and down their lineup. They had some skilled players, but they wore down Vancouver and New Jersey, respectively. You name Lucic, but he wasn't the only one. The Bruins' third line that year of Kelly, Peverley, and Paille were very instrumental in the Bruins' Cup run.

Obviously, it would be great to have such teams. I just wished that Feaster would have tried to create more balance on the team. It was clear that the team needed more skill, but I think he went too far and completely neglected the importance of toughness and grit. It's a little surprising since Feaster put together a well-balanced team in Tampa Bay as he complemented Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, and Boyle with players like Fedotenko, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Lukowich, Sarich, Kubina, Cullimore, Pratt, and Andre Roy. At the very least, he could have added more toughness on the backend.
Yes I agree those teams had grit but the reason they were/are great is that they have skilled players who are gritty just the gritty is about as useful as **** on a bull. I am saying that the reason those teams are great are the Malkins, the Lucics, the Browns not the Konopkas/Janssens or else they would have more cups.

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:46 PM
  #44
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Butler, Widemen are as gritty as some of the players you listed as is Comeau and Stempniak isn't far behind guys like Kennedy. And since when was Lebda gritty? If that is gritty then so is Sven
So, all you can do is argue individual players but not the actual argument. I'm not surprised.

Comeau isn't gritty at all. He's a floater. I'll give you Stempniak and Butler, although does Butler really count since he hardly plays? Kennedy is feisty, gritty player. He's not Steve Ott, but he plays bigger than his size. And Lebda was a tough defenceman. He wasn't the most physical defenceman, but he wasn't a finesse guy at all.

Anyway, I'm going to bed because you still haven't been able to refute my argument and it's not worth my time having a discussion with someone who is unable to provide a solid rebuttal.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:47 PM
  #45
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
You're the one that had him pegged as our #1 center, not me. If your team's "#1 center" can't net a 3rd liner like Steve Ott, you know you're in trouble.
He is only one point back of Backlund for the best natural center. I said he was our best not a #1 its like your a poster just not a good one

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:49 PM
  #46
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
So, all you can do is argue individual players but not the actual argument. I'm not surprised.

Comeau isn't gritty at all. He's a floater. I'll give you Stempniak and Butler, although does Butler really count since he hardly plays? Kennedy is feisty, gritty player. He's not Steve Ott, but he plays bigger than his size. And Lebda was a tough defenceman. He wasn't the most physical defenceman, but he wasn't a finesse guy at all.

Anyway, I'm going to bed because you still haven't been able to refute my argument and it's not worth my time having a discussion with someone who is unable to provide a solid rebuttal.
Your argument is grit makes great teams, I am saying that is wrong grit is useful when that grit has skill there is no way to prove either side what the **** do you want to do buy two different teams and test it?

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:49 PM
  #47
flameaholic
FOREVER a Flame!
 
flameaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
So we are losing because we don't have a tough guy on the 4th line? This is crazy, are we soft? yes but a fighter isn't the solution to fixing this team.
I'm merely stating facts. Calgary's the only team that hasn't had a fight so far this season. That says something.

flameaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:50 PM
  #48
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Yes I agree those teams had grit but the reason they were/are great is that they have skilled players who are gritty just the gritty is about as useful as **** on a bull. I am saying that the reason those teams are great are the Malkins, the Lucics, the Browns not the Konopkas/Janssens or else they would have more cups.
Those teams are great because not only did they have great, skilled players, but they also had role players willing to do their jobs. In the NHL, you don't win on skill alone. You also need guys who are willing to hit, grind, get to the net and score those ugly goals, and sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

No one is saying that you solely need grit to win games and championships. Get this out of your thick skull. What Flameaholic and I are arguing is that you need the right mix. You can't just have a team full of skilled players, which the Flames are right now. You also need those gritty, tough players. And again, I have shown time and time again that the best teams in hockey have that mix. However, as usual, you're too stubborn to totally comprehend the other person's point of view.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:51 PM
  #49
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Your argument is grit makes great teams, I am saying that is wrong grit is useful when that grit has skill there is no way to prove either side what the **** do you want to do buy two different teams and test it?
Again, that's not what I said. You're just too thick headed to comprehend the point that I'm making.

Actually, come to think of it, we're probably saying the same thing. You need skill and grit to win hockey games. It's a proven formula. You just can't solely rely on skill, which is what this Flames team has become - too lopsided in one direction.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:52 PM
  #50
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,585
vCash: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
I'm merely stating facts. Calgary's the only team that hasn't had a fight so far this season. That says something.
Yea Pitts only has 2 fights and is also in last

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.