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Where's the grit?

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Old
01-31-2013, 11:53 PM
  #51
flameaholic
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
He is only one point back of Backlund for the best natural center. I said he was our best not a #1 its like your a poster just not a good one
At least I can spell and know how to use punctuation.

What are you, 12?

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01-31-2013, 11:53 PM
  #52
tfong
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Extremes of both sides will never work. It doesn't work now and it didn't work even during the broadstreet bully era (they needed skill at the same time).

But it is harder to to acquire skill than it is to get grit. For the most part, most of the players of the gritty type can be be had cheaply (if your name isn't Prust haha).

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01-31-2013, 11:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Those teams are great because not only did they have great, skilled players, but they also had role players willing to do their jobs. In the NHL, you don't win on skill alone. You also need guys who are willing to hit, grind, get to the net and score those ugly goals, and sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

No one is saying that you solely need grit to win games and championships. Get this out of your thick skull. What Flameaholic and I are arguing is that you need the right mix. You can't just have a team full of skilled players, which the Flames are right now. You also need those gritty, tough players. And again, I have shown time and time again that the best teams in hockey have that mix. However, as usual, you're too stubborn to totally comprehend the other person's point of view.
I know what you are saying but I am saying we don't have the skilled physical guys to begin with so adding 4th line grit is like adding an extra stick to Butler it just doesn't do anything. We need another top player that is also gritty the guys you listed aren't going to fix the problem we don't need 8 minute a night guy we need a Downie or a Hartnell

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01-31-2013, 11:56 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
At least I can spell and know how to use punctuation.

What are you, 12?
Yea spelling goes out the window after the 5th post loss beer,but I'm glad to know you understood what I was saying.


Last edited by TheHudlinator: 02-01-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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Old
01-31-2013, 11:59 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I know what you are saying but I am saying we don't have the skilled physical guys to begin with so adding 4th line grit is like adding an extra stick to Butler it just doesn't do anything. We need another top player that is also gritty the guys you listed aren't going to fix the problem we don't need 8 minute a night guys we need a Downie or a Hartnell
I don't think the team needs to add a skilled, gritty guy. It would be great, but not necessary. Just getting a guy who is tough and physical and has some decent hands would be a plus. Put him on a line with Backlund and Baertschi, where the 3rd forward would create space for the youngsters and clog up the front of the net.

It's not always necessary to have all 3 players on a line being highly skilled. Sometimes it helps to have a solid role player on a line that will do the dirty work, like Colin Patterson did when he played with Gilmour and Loob. Glencross played a similar role early in his Flames career, but has developed more skill over time.

Or look at what Vancouver has done. They've put Burrows and now Kassian on a line with the Sedins. Both players are gritty forwards with some skill (I wouldn't call either them overly skilled players), but they do the dirty work in the corners and get to the front of the net, thus freeing up space for the Sedins to work.

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02-01-2013, 12:03 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I don't think the team needs to add a skilled, gritty guy. It would be great, but not necessary. Just getting a guy who is tough and physical and has some decent hands would be a plus. Put him on a line with Backlund and Baertschi, where the 3rd forward would create space for the youngsters and clog up the front of the net.

It's not always necessary to have all 3 players on a line being highly skilled. Sometimes it helps to have a solid role player on a line that will do the dirty work, like Colin Patterson did when he played with Gilmour and Loob. Glencross played a similar role early in his Flames career, but has developed more skill over time.

Or look at what Vancouver has done. They've put Burrows and now Kassian on a line with the Sedins. Both players are gritty forwards with some skill (I wouldn't call either them overly skilled players), but they do the dirty work in the corners and get to the front of the net, thus freeing up space for the Sedins to work.
Yes but with Kesler they have 3 skilled guys that can grind if need be we don't have that by adding 4th liners we take the risk of getting stupid penalties and have nothing to show for it but a few extra hits.

The canucks run an effective system because of the skilled players and the gritty players know what to do, this offseason we added the players that create that skill foundation (Hudler,Cervenka,Widemen) but the problem is we need a big center (a Kesler) to fall in so we can run two skilled players with a gritty player.

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02-01-2013, 12:13 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
At least I can spell and know how to use punctuation.

What are you, 12?
The irony in this post is pretty awesome.

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:13 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Extremes of both sides will never work. It doesn't work now and it didn't work even during the broadstreet bully era (they needed skill at the same time).

But it is harder to to acquire skill than it is to get grit. For the most part, most of the players of the gritty type can be be had cheaply (if your name isn't Prust haha).
The Flames are an organization of extremes. If the offensive is going, the defense is no where to be found. Such was life under Keenan, and now Hartley. On the flip side, if the defense was exemplary, the offense was no where to be found. Darryl and Brent Sutter led the charge down that road.

Either there's too much skill and not enough hard nosed guys or there's 17 grinders and Iginla. If the team can score, Kipper can't make a save. If Kipper's playing out of his mind, the team can't buy a goal. Granted, there's an obviously strong correlation between stingy defensive systems and goalies having terrific stats versus run-and-gun offensive teams and goalies having sub 0.900 save percentage. The Flames' problem is that they can't find a balance between the two.

Personally, I don't see a place for Cammalleri long term. Move him for a big body; someone who can win board battles and isn't afraid to going to the net and looking for rebounds.

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02-01-2013, 01:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
The Flames are an organization of extremes. If the offensive is going, the defense is no where to be found. Such was life under Keenan, and now Hartley. On the flip side, if the defense was exemplary, the offense was no where to be found. Darryl and Brent Sutter led the charge down that road.

Either there's too much skill and not enough hard nosed guys or there's 17 grinders and Iginla. If the team can score, Kipper can't make a save. If Kipper's playing out of his mind, the team can't buy a goal. Granted, there's an obviously strong correlation between stingy defensive systems and goalies having terrific stats versus run-and-gun offensive teams and goalies having sub 0.900 save percentage. The Flames' problem is that they can't find a balance between the two.

Personally, I don't see a place for Cammalleri long term. Move him for a big body; someone who can win board battles and isn't afraid to going to the net and looking for rebounds.
I think our defense is fine actually. Its Kipper not doing great. I'd say we have a good balance now. Low shot totals against especially but Kipper just not stopping the shots he needs to stop.

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02-01-2013, 06:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
It's "there" not "their".
Really? You did that.

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02-01-2013, 09:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
At least I can spell and know how to use punctuation.

What are you, 12?
Are we here to discuss punctuation or are we here to discuss the flames? who the **** cares if he makes a spelling mistake

There definitely is some truth to this. I like the idea that our team is getting a lot more skill but we do need some grit to go with it. Im perfectly fine with our top9 and have no interest in changing it. But that fourth line needs to be tougher, besides Jackman we got no grit.. We need players like we used to have that would drop the gloves almost every game (guys like Prust).

Obviously, blaming the bad start to the season might be a little too much as its not like we've been getting destroyed physically every game. We've been competing perfectly fine, Not to point any fingers but Kippers gotta be better.. If we are gona keep playing one goal games, we can't have him let in a softie.

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02-01-2013, 09:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Flames92 View Post
Are we here to discuss punctuation or are we here to discuss the flames? who the **** cares if he makes a spelling mistake
I do. It makes it a lot more difficult to follow without the punctuation. And spelling mistakes piss me off!

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02-01-2013, 09:28 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
I think our defense is fine actually. Its Kipper not doing great. I'd say we have a good balance now. Low shot totals against especially but Kipper just not stopping the shots he needs to stop.
Given the defensive breakdowns last game, and how Butler was more or less responsible for two goals against, I disagree.

The number of shots aren't the whole story either. There may not be many shots, but a lot of them are high quality ones that are a direct result of soft defense or complete breakdowns.

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02-01-2013, 10:03 PM
  #64
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Where is the grit? Well for starters, I think too much of it is in the pressbox. Jackman, Jones and likely Sarich tomorrow.

Here is a better question. What is the Flames identity? I have no idea, and neither do they.

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03-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #65
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Do people still think this team has enough grit? Heck, even Hartley says this team needs more jam. And the games against Anaheim and LA showed that this team needs more size and grit if they are going to compete against the best teams in the league.

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03-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Do people still think this team has enough grit? Heck, even Hartley says this team needs more jam. And the games against Anaheim and LA showed that this team needs more size and grit if they are going to compete against the best teams in the league.
The kind of grit we need is not the kind you can trade for, we need top 6 grit not 4th liners.

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03-10-2013, 02:27 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
The kind of grit we need is not the kind you can trade for, we need top 6 grit not 4th liners.
Team needs more grit in the top-9 and on defence. The defence is extremely soft.

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03-10-2013, 02:30 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Team needs more grit in the top-9 and on defence. The defence is extremely soft.
Extremely rare to find a defenseman that can play the run and gun style and play physical (why Gio is struggling). Again we need a big forward who is skilled enough to play with Tangs and Cammy but those aren't available.

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03-10-2013, 02:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Extremely rare to find a defenseman that can play the run and gun style and play physical (why Gio is struggling). Again we need a big forward who is skilled enough to play with Tangs and Cammy but those aren't available.
Those are excuses. Not every player on the team needs to be extremely mobile and have the ability to play a run-and-gun style. Actually, the Flames don't play that style but rather they want to be more of puck-possession team. Even teams like Chicago, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, Ottawa, etc. have stay-at-home, gritty, tough defencemen and forwards. There were plenty available in FA, but Feaster focused on increasing the skill level while completely neglecting the importance of size, grit, and toughness.

I agree the team needs two or three top-6 guys who can play a gritty game, but they also need grit on the 3rd line and across the defensive corps. Bouwmeester, Giordano, Brodie, Wideman, and Smith are not tough, physical defencemen.

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03-10-2013, 08:24 PM
  #70
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our last proper star player with any grit

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03-10-2013, 08:27 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by weephil56 View Post

our last proper star player with any grit
Yea no grit here

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03-10-2013, 08:27 PM
  #72
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our last proper star player with any grit
Nice troll attempt.

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03-10-2013, 08:27 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Extremely rare to find a defenseman that can play the run and gun style and play physical (why Gio is struggling). Again we need a big forward who is skilled enough to play with Tangs and Cammy but those aren't available.
We had Regehr. Our defence got soft after we let him go, and our next shot it probably Seiloff for grit but he is probably 3-5 years down the road.

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03-10-2013, 08:29 PM
  #74
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We had Regehr. Our defence got soft after we let him go, and our next shot it probably Seiloff for grit but he is probably 3-5 years down the road.
Regehr can't skate anymore, we would have been softer either way he just isn't the same player.

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03-10-2013, 08:30 PM
  #75
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Nice troll attempt.
not at all he played on the edge every game iggy hasnt done that he doesnt get in peoples face wind them up draw pens against him.

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