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This is a Bad Hockey Team: Part 2

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01-31-2013, 11:45 PM
  #251
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by CharlestownChiefsESC View Post
Last year John Mitchell was the scapegoat, last year Dubinsky was trash, last year Fedotenko was old. But this year lets praise them as great players, because you know if they were still here they'd be getting crap nightly and these same fans would be wondering why they never tried to trade for Nash. Gimme a break
I never said Dubinsky was trash, but boy was I wrong about John Mitchell. I didn't know how good we had it with him playing on our 4th line. He just played WAY too many minutes for what he was.

I'd take Mitchell back in a HEARTBEAT on our 4th line.

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01-31-2013, 11:49 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
fire torts
lol.

Everyone called Torts an idiot for playing Mitchell, but a good coach utilized him to his strengths. Great puck possession player, no one is competent of that play in our whole lineup besides maybe Nash on a good night.

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01-31-2013, 11:51 PM
  #253
CM Lundqvist
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I hate to say it, but I'm starting to think coaching is a problem. Tortarella's system has them playing on their heels way too much. Sure, it doesn't help that they're out of shape, but it seems like they just have no drive because they're told to play this ****ing garbage 6-goalie **** that he employs them to play. Same system in place for the previous 3 and a half seasons and it hasn't done jack **** for us in the GF column.

I think it might be time to start looking at new coaching. At least get rid of Sullivan, god is our power play awful. Stagnant, no movement, no creativity, passing is awful, no one-timers.

Aside from that, the apparent lack of depth on this team is overwhelming. The defense hasn't played up to par and the forwards aren't helping out as much on the backcheck. The last time I've seen Ranger teams let this many players in behind the defense and lack of forechecking like this would be in the dark ages.

Maybe them missing the playoffs would be a gigantic wakeup call to Sather to start ****ing doing something in other areas for this team.

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01-31-2013, 11:53 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
lol.

Everyone called Torts an idiot for playing Mitchell, but a good coach utilized him to his strengths. Great puck possession player, no one is competent of that play in our whole lineup besides maybe Nash on a good night.
Like I said, he gave him too many minutes. He was a 4th liner and a good one at that, but you can't keep giving him crazy minutes like that. He was gritty like sand paper and had decent hands, responsible defensively, pretty good on faceoffs.

It was just an annoyance that he was playing 12+ minutes a game at times when we were struggling to score goals.

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01-31-2013, 11:56 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
I hate to say it, but I'm starting to think coaching is a problem. Tortarella's system has them playing on their heels way too much. Sure, it doesn't help that they're out of shape, but it seems like they just have no drive because they're told to play this ****ing garbage 6-goalie **** that he employs them to play. Same system in place for the previous 3 and a half seasons and it hasn't done jack **** for us in the GF column.

I think it might be time to start looking at new coaching. At least get rid of Sullivan, god is our power play awful. Stagnant, no movement, no creativity, passing is awful, no one-timers.

Aside from that, the apparent lack of depth on this team is overwhelming. The defense hasn't played up to par and the forwards aren't helping out as much on the backcheck. The last time I've seen Ranger teams let this many players in behind the defense and lack of forechecking like this would be in the dark ages.

Maybe them missing the playoffs would be a gigantic wakeup call to Sather to start ****ing doing something in other areas for this team.
Sadly, I like Torts but I agree. This passive, gritty, defense shot blocking system wears out the team and top players.

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01-31-2013, 11:58 PM
  #256
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the only player i really miss is Fedotenko.

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01-31-2013, 11:59 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Sadly, I like Torts but I agree. This passive, gritty, defense shot blocking system wears out the team and top players.
I agree with you both.

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02-01-2013, 12:04 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Like I said, he gave him too many minutes. He was a 4th liner and a good one at that, but you can't keep giving him crazy minutes like that. He was gritty like sand paper and had decent hands, responsible defensively, pretty good on faceoffs.

It was just an annoyance that he was playing 12+ minutes a game at times when we were struggling to score goals.
I think people look at Mitchell's excessive stickhandling/holding onto puck as a negative. However, I think it's a brilliant strategy to utilize. More time with puck on stick means less possession time for the other team. When Mitchell was on ice, his puck possession skills helped to hem teams in their own end. Look at the Kreider goal in game 3 v s. the Devils as reference. This is more valuable to me than thugs like Rupp and Asham being only good at punching other players.

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02-01-2013, 12:06 AM
  #259
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Go ahead, change the head coach. Won't make much of a difference. This team wasn't built to score. You're still relying on two pure goal scorers to carry the team every single night.

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02-01-2013, 12:06 AM
  #260
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I agree with you both.
I hope to god Vancouver fires Alain Vigneault. I'd love him as coach of this team.

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02-01-2013, 12:13 AM
  #261
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Ok, there are still 41 games left so nobody knows what's gonan happen. Maybe we'll go 30-11 down the road..

But anyway, so far things don't look that bright. Tortorella is partly to blame, but in the end he's still playing with the cards dealt to him. Nash was an awesome addition, but he has never been someone to put a team on his back when others are struggling. Don't get me wrong, I love the way he is playing, but he still doesn't solve the problem: lack of creativity.

Maybe the coaching staff doesn't allow the players to be creative, but who can you honestly point at and say "boy, that guy can pass and shoot". Richards is our "best" playmaker and in the 1 season + 7 games I really haven't seen him make a pass where I would say "how did he see that guy open?". Look at how Malkin set up Letang before his goal, but Letang just missed the net. You don't see that kind of passing from anyone on this team. Never mind the shot that Malkin has.

What we do is work the puck down low and then get it in front of the net. Maybe it will deflect to an open player, who can stuff it into an empty net. Or shoot from the point and hope the goalie doesn't see it. Meanwhile most teams know what to expect and sure we will still score goals that way, but the best teams have another element of surprise they can use when the first option to scoring a goal is shut down. I don't think this Rangers team can adjust on the fly like that. Maybe next season with a full camp and everything, but I think for this shortened season we are going to see exactly what we saw last season.

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02-01-2013, 12:18 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post

Maybe them missing the playoffs would be a gigantic wakeup call to Sather to start ****ing doing something in other areas for this team.
I'd rather it be a wakeup call to Dolan to ****can Sather.

He made a couple of great trades....but over this length of time at the helm, who couldn't. Plus this team has to be the worst drafting team in the league. I mean, this fan base drools over somebody that can put up 40 pts in their second year in the league. That's how starved we are for a prospect to make a real dent in this league.

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02-01-2013, 12:24 AM
  #263
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The Rangers could have drafted better (Montoya, for example), but outside of the top-3 the draft is a crapshoot. And even the top-3 isn't always guaranteed to become NHL stars.

Do the Penguins deserve some sort of of recognition for being wise enough to draft Crosby, Malkin and Fleury? You didn't have to be a draft magician to pull that one off. Or the Oilers? I mean 18 teams passed on Ryan Getzlaf, for example.

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02-01-2013, 12:27 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by tomcatNYR View Post
Ok, there are still 41 games left so nobody knows what's gonan happen. Maybe we'll go 30-11 down the road..

But anyway, so far things don't look that bright. Tortorella is partly to blame, but in the end he's still playing with the cards dealt to him. Nash was an awesome addition, but he has never been someone to put a team on his back when others are struggling. Don't get me wrong, I love the way he is playing, but he still doesn't solve the problem: lack of creativity.

Maybe the coaching staff doesn't allow the players to be creative, but who can you honestly point at and say "boy, that guy can pass and shoot". Richards is our "best" playmaker and in the 1 season + 7 games I really haven't seen him make a pass where I would say "how did he see that guy open?". Look at how Malkin set up Letang before his goal, but Letang just missed the net. You don't see that kind of passing from anyone on this team. Never mind the shot that Malkin has.

What we do is work the puck down low and then get it in front of the net. Maybe it will deflect to an open player, who can stuff it into an empty net. Or shoot from the point and hope the goalie doesn't see it. Meanwhile most teams know what to expect and sure we will still score goals that way, but the best teams have another element of surprise they can use when the first option to scoring a goal is shut down. I don't think this Rangers team can adjust on the fly like that. Maybe next season with a full camp and everything, but I think for this shortened season we are going to see exactly what we saw last season.
I agree with most of your assessment but I'm also left wondering HOW Richards doesn't display that kind of talent here. He's played 7 games between two of THE most offensively gifted players in the entire world. He can barely put up points with them. The 2 years in Dallas, IMMEDIATELY before signing here he put up 91 points in 80 games and 77 in 72. Are you telling me he's playing the exact same game here? Nothing changed? Because he went from 1.11 points per game to .81 points per game. I have to imagine he was making some pretty impressive plays to put up such good numbers in Dallas. Were his wingers that much better than Gaborik and Nash? Or does our system simply stifle creativity? I have a feeling our stamps out most of a players creativity and drills the cycle, cycle, cycle mentality in its place.

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02-01-2013, 12:34 AM
  #265
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I can't be bothered to check the stats, but I'm inclined to think the PP in Dallas had something to do with Rixhards' production. But in general I don't view him as a playmaker, who can really find open people or put the puck behind the defenseman's back to the stick of a streaking player.

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02-01-2013, 12:39 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by tomcatNYR View Post
I can't be bothered to check the stats, but I'm inclined to think the PP in Dallas had something to do with Rixhards' production. But in general I don't view him as a playmaker, who can really find open people or put the puck behind the defenseman's back to the stick of a streaking player.
Last year he put up 66 points in 82 games. He had 7 PPGs and 17 PPAs.
One year earlier he put up 77 points in 70 games. He had 7 PPGs and 22PPAs.

That's 6 more ES points in 12 less games. Moreover, he's supposed to make the PP go. Point being, I'm pretty sure Richards was making plays that "wowed" you when he was in Dallas. He doesn't here. His skills didn't change. I believe it has to do wit the system.

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02-01-2013, 12:41 AM
  #267
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I agree with most of your assessment but I'm also left wondering HOW Richards doesn't display that kind of talent here. He's played 7 games between two of THE most offensively gifted players in the entire world. He can barely put up points with them. The 2 years in Dallas, IMMEDIATELY before signing here he put up 91 points in 80 games and 77 in 72. Are you telling me he's playing the exact same game here? Nothing changed? Because he went from 1.11 points per game to .81 points per game. I have to imagine he was making some pretty impressive plays to put up such good numbers in Dallas. Were his wingers that much better than Gaborik and Nash? Or does our system simply stifle creativity? I have a feeling our stamps out most of a players creativity and drills the cycle, cycle, cycle mentality in its place.
His PP points went significantly down.

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02-01-2013, 12:46 AM
  #268
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His PP points went significantly down.
So did his ES production, which I just illustrated. Love that both jumped to that conclusion though. Simply watch tape of Richards and he was a much more creative, exciting player in Dallas. I'm not blaming Richards; it's the way this team plays. The system stifles creative play in favor of 'buying in'.

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02-01-2013, 01:10 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
So did his ES production, which I just illustrated. Love that both jumped to that conclusion though. Simply watch tape of Richards and he was a much more creative, exciting player in Dallas. I'm not blaming Richards; it's the way this team plays. The system stifles creative play in favor of 'buying in'.
That's why I said Torts and the coaching staff are also partly to blame. But a really creative player would still find a way to make those plays even from time to time. But what's for sure is that something has to give, I'm just not sure if we're going to see any adjustments this season without a proper training camp and all. I'm resigned to the fact that this is the way the Rangers are going to play these 48 games + the playoffs.

Now hopefully Tortorella will realize in the summer that he has to change things up, because the other teams have caught up to his tactics. He has Nash, Gaborik, Richards, maybe a healthy and an improved Kreider next season. Mix things up and promote some puck movement and creativity. Of course this won't work with all lines - can't expect Boyle and Pyatt to dominate by passing the puck around - but the top-6 should at least be able to make more than three consecutive passes successfully.

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02-01-2013, 01:15 AM
  #270
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Rangers Defense is really not a problem. Top 4 D are outstanding IMO. MDZ and McDonough are absolutely impressive at their job...

Top 6 is working, but not working enough. You have to recall, for nash we lost 2 of our core... That chemistry will NEVER come immediately, especially in a shortened season with tons of pressure on every single player and staff member of the team. Nash does NOT know how to play for NY just, and that is NOT his fault. He is working wonders right now individually, but the rest of the team is still getting used to getting him making plays and moving the puck, which will produce offense and therefore goals. This INCLUDES the top 6 right now, particularly Gabby and Richards. Both of them are incredible, but there is no chemistry on these lines, not yet. It's going to take at least a month for this to really kick in for the top 6.

Hank cannot be blamed for anything. The guy is a monster in net...

I'm still blaming alot of the sluggishness on a lack of a training camp, and more so the lack of time spent together as a team for the players. This Lockout garbage has really taken a toll mentally on the team (someone before mentioned that the Rangers seem mentally disengaged), and that is something that will have to come. The guys we do have are too smart to not find this chemistry. It worked last year.

Thirdly, our bottom 6 really isn't as bad as everyone is making them out to be. Asham is NOT a terrible signing, Halpern and Pyatt have been really good, ESPECIALLY on their penalty kills. Pyatt has 2 goals already as well... So no, the bottom 6 is working just fine even though we lost Feddy and prust... Not going to attack this one.

Lastly, our major downfall right now is the POWER PLAY... Rangers cannot make an opportunity out of everything... Looking for the perfect thread-the-needle pass or the beautiful set up for Nash will never produce goals. Rangers do not take enough shots, and waste too much time passing the puck around only to turn it over and have it cleared out, and it kills 1/4 of the PP every single time.

It's not our players having the major issues, it's simply the players having issues producing offense. We know the players are capable of it, it's going to take some time for everything to start coming together.


Side note... Islanders are 5-1.... weren't they doing "this well" in the beginning of the season several years ago? Only to shlump to 12th place by the end of the year?

Not worried at all... yet.

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02-01-2013, 06:23 AM
  #271
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Richards is old and slow and his best years are behind him
Torts' sucks / Sullivan sucks . Las year was an anomaly , NYR HAD A CHANCE AND A GOOD SEED and chance for the cup and it was lack if scoring not defense that cost them .
TORTS had his chances and so far this team looks like ass . PP still sucks .
FIRE TORTS
buy out WADE RICHARDS

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02-01-2013, 06:26 AM
  #272
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the only player i really miss is Fedotenko.

And Prust.

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02-01-2013, 06:27 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
Richards is old and slow and his best years are behind him
Torts' sucks / Sullivan sucks . Las year was an anomaly , NYR HAD A CHANCE AND A GOOD SEED and chance for the cup and it was lack if scoring not defense that cost them .
TORTS had his chances and so far this team looks like ass . PP still sucks .
FIRE TORTS
buy out WADE RICHARDS

Dont forget to trade Gaborik.

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02-01-2013, 06:30 AM
  #274
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Are we going to necro this thread after every loss?

The Penguins are a very good team. They're a contender. The Rangers were without two top-six forwards. How many posts did they hit? It was a closer game than the score indicated. Shore up the powerplay, get healthy, and let's go.

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02-01-2013, 06:47 AM
  #275
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I'll pile on the bandwagon. I think it's time for Torts to go.

We need something major to really shake this team up because nothing is working at this point. The dump and chase is giving me fits of anger and I'm afraid I am going to hurt myself one of these nights.

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