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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers SLOP FEST!!!

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:47 AM
  #226
turd
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Uh, no? I'm pretty sure there's multiple threads and discussions about this very topic somewhere around here.
How can it not be a concern? It goes Sid, Geno, Neal, then about 10 levels below, you get to Kunitz, Dupuis, etc. Dupuis is not a perennial 25-goal scorer. Kunitz has been total garbage through the first seven games. Cooke won't sniff 20 again. Kennedy will struggle to reach 20 again. Sutter has been ok defensively, but non-existent otherwise. There's a revolving door to Malkin's left (and that door has tended to revolve just about every other shift).

There's a whole lot of talk about depth on this team, but can anyone point it out to me? There certainly isn't an organizational depth at forward. Shero's hard-on for defensemen has quashed that. Bennett's the only hope there.


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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
And here's a mystery for you ... both Kunitz and Dupuis are coming off of career years. What the hell happened?
I'm going to go with they're not as good as their numbers indicated. Kunitz had the benefit of playing with the best player in the world and a 40-goal scorer, on what was the best line in hockey. Dupuis simply played over his head. That ain't gonna last forever.

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02-01-2013, 01:34 AM
  #227
alcanalz
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Everyone wants to panic one way or the other. And I know this post will be glossed over, because most reasonable posts are... But this team needs a simple retool. Not a blow up.

Will removing DB solve everything? No? Will making a few trades solve everything? No. It's going to be a combo of a roster gaining identy and a change of philosophy. Can this happen without a coaching change, or trade? Yes, all be it more nose to the stone difficult but yes it can happen...

We have a good coach, we have great stars of elite talent, and solid complimentary players... This team lacks an identy.

If it happens current roster or current coach or Shero pulls a trigger on one of a coach or player(s) or both... Or neither... This team
Needs to find an identy and roll with it.

Because it has none right now.
I agree, although I think the use of the word retool is perhaps too strong. Mediocre to bad teams need a retool.

With the team we have, we need some tweaking. Some sort of change, perhaps.

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02-01-2013, 01:39 AM
  #228
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I will repeat.

For all my bashing, this team will win a lot of games regular season. Definately among the top ten teams in points if not top five, as they usually are.

The concern should be the post season as this team seems built for regular season success but also built to fail in the post season.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:42 AM
  #229
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Vokoun's rebound control is phenomenal. I hope he can teach Fleury a little bit of it. He's just so calm and cool back there, and it translates to the defense.

Simon Despres had his moment tonight. Fantastic game on so many levels by him. He played tough and physical in the defensive zone, he scored that beauty of a goal, and I thought he played a real solid positional game. What I love about Simon is that I rarely see him lose a puck battle. He just simple overpowers men with strength.

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02-01-2013, 04:44 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
+ MSG announcing crew (Ogre has been refuted with skillful announcing). Not only were they not homers most of the game but they couldn't shut up about how great Neal's goal was and when they talked about teams complaining they called both teams out. Meantime like a normal human being of an announcer, the PbP guy called the game professionally without Steigerwald's non-stop, fill-every-second-of-air-time-with-gibberish policy. This game could've used one pickle-stabber comment but that's about it. I love not listening to Steigy and Errey and this weekend will provide me two more chances.
those announcers were awful. Complete homers. Every bit as much as Steigy and Errey if not worse. They did not get better as the game went on, I have no idea what game you were watching. On top of that, they just seemed utterly bored all game. If professional means boring, I'll take unprofessional all day. And ya, they complimented Neal's goal. So what? Errey compliments other teams all the time. He calls out when our players get away with something too. These guys literally thought every call should have gone the Rangers way. Just awful.

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02-01-2013, 04:58 AM
  #231
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Rangers announcers are usually great, particularly Sam Rosen. The color guy, Joe Micheletti, was in a bizarre and uncharacteristically whiny mode. Gets mad at Crosby for expecting a call, congratulates Richards on the same behavior not 5 minutes later. Says Staal "finished his check" on Malkin. Lets out a derisive "THIS is their superstar" when Crosby coughs up the puck. He was every bit as bad as Steigerwald can be. It's not very often you'll catch the Rangers guy behaving like that, though.

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Old
02-01-2013, 05:30 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Vokoun's rebound control is phenomenal. I hope he can teach Fleury a little bit of it. He's just so calm and cool back there, and it translates to the defense.

Simon Despres had his moment tonight. Fantastic game on so many levels by him. He played tough and physical in the defensive zone, he scored that beauty of a goal, and I thought he played a real solid positional game. What I love about Simon is that I rarely see him lose a puck battle. He just simple overpowers men with strength.
Yeah. he is like black hole. Nothing deflects off him. I'm glad we have Vokoun. I remember he was the main reason of Czech victory over Russia in the final of WC 2010 when he stopped Malkin, Dats, Covy, Mozyakin, Gonchar, Ovi, Semin, Fedorov, Kulemin etc. Russia badly outshot them but lost


Last edited by od71: 02-01-2013 at 05:38 AM.
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Old
02-01-2013, 05:44 AM
  #233
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Guys, stop blaming Kunitz. It seems to me it's a matter of honour for everybody to kick his ass. Yes, he is rusty after long break, but who is not? He is a proven player and I'm sure he'll improve. If you are blaming him for Sid's slow start, ok, I'll be glad to have him in Malkin's line.

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02-01-2013, 06:20 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Both teams played like ass. Neither team or fan base should be excited. Garbage hockey.

+
Despres and Vokoun

-
Everyone else

=
Bortuzzo for his debut. Not great, but not bad. He gets the pass.
Pretty much sums it up for me.

Torts has to be pissed at that effort. And while Pens got the two points they had no flow. The game was so choppy with all the whistles and the Rangers setting up 4 players in the neutral zone.

What a waste of offensive talent that game was on both sides.

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Old
02-01-2013, 06:25 AM
  #235
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This was a hard game to watch, no flow to the game at all. Still take the points but man both teams suck right now.

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02-01-2013, 06:29 AM
  #236
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I'm glad for the 2pts but not crazy about our performance last night.

+ Vokoun
- Kunitz

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02-01-2013, 06:41 AM
  #237
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+ Nice win - we'll take anything we can get at this point.

+ Vokoun and his friends the posts/crossbar

+ Orpik/Martin

+ Despres - he's looked so much better since he sat for a few games plus a nice finish on his goal

+ Sutter line, except for Cooke's dumb penalty, I thought they looked pretty solid on the defensive end; a goal from one of them would be nice.

- Bortuzzo looked lost; hopefully, he'll come around with some playing time.

- Letang looked awful in every aspect of the game (although he did OK on the PK), especially the power play.

- Rangers announcers, but they aren't as bad as Staggy, as he's usually talking about some obscure former player, esoteric statistics, or something completely irrelevant by the middle of the first period.

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Old
02-01-2013, 06:41 AM
  #238
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+ VOKOUN!
+ Despres, because this game will give him confidence to grow
+ Malkin, didn't need a winger, just a defensemen to set him up. hmmmm

-- Fleury's fans, knocked down a peg
- Letang on the powerplay, continues to be a failure. Its no coincidence that our one powerplay goal happened when Letang fell into his own net and couldn't carry the puck into the zone or participate in the play.

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02-01-2013, 06:47 AM
  #239
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Yet another ugly game, thankfully Rangers looked even worse. Good game from Martin. As others have mentioned Deprés looked good again, and like I said after last game I'd like to see more of Jeffrey with Malkin and Neal.

On a side note, I just realized Letang is tied for the league lead in giveaways so far this season.

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Old
02-01-2013, 06:48 AM
  #240
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Can we dial the coaching argument away from 'X or Y coach did this' and 'Z could would do that with the Pens'? There are far too many variables in play there, and Bylsma evaluation doesn't need to be about that.


We can discuss what we see happening with this team.
My genuine beef with Bylsma is that if you look at the areas where right now we look the worst from a system/structure point of view, I just cannot abide that we cannot do better, and this isn't something new where one can say its only been seven games.

For instance, I previously mentioned an example of how we are - the vast majority of the time - simply having our D-men throw the puck up the wall and then we chase it. At best it makes it a 50-50 challenge to give us possession in the neutral/offensive zone, but it isn't actually like that because opponent defenders obviously have the jump on our forwards when it comes to meeting those passes, more so as they are made religiously and are thus fully expected by opponents. It must be possible to play and build our plays with more variety than that! Even those who consider these growing pains after the lockout must notice this.
The stretch pass is a great weapon when used some times - and by all means if teams want to defend against it like Winnipeg did last year.... keep on doing it! Also some times you are under a lot of pressure from the forecheck and you basically have to get it the hell out. its not like I'm religious about this. But we cannot enter every match with that being the way we outlet a vast majority of the time! It is asinine and more than being butt ugly to watch, we are not creating offense off of it.
More often than not (much more), it just doesn't work, and as it is now what everyone expect from us, it is a major reason that we do not establish anything like the offensive zone time we used to.

Then Mtl.Pen will say that we dumb down the system because few of our forwards have the hands to be more elaborate on offense, but honestly that is just taking that argument way too far. It is just as reasonable (more) saying that few of our forwards look capable of receiving a pass and doing anything with it because we are not creating time and space in which to make and receive those passes. You create that time and space by being unpredictable as a team more so than by being individually skilled. That goes for EVERY team sport.

One a more positive note; we (at least some of us) have been talking ad nauseam about our struggles to deal with a heavy forecheck. Rangers, albeit without Callahan in this one, is one of the teams with big forwards who create most their offense by bearing down on defenses and getting scrappy goals in front. They tried that in this one as well. Notice the difference in vulnerability when you insert bodies like those of Despres and Bortuzzo? Playing youngsters like that have other risks for sure and they sure weren't perfect, but when they can skate like they can, the very addition of size/strength of that magnitude is of tremendous value. We've been saying this **** for years, and it is beyond me how adding such competence was not a major focus when making our big D-acquisitions some years ago or at the deadline in any seasons post-Gill&Scuderi. I simply cannot understand why this wasn't an evident need to all and Shero (and Bylsma) more than the rest of us. Why on earth would you not prioritize giving Bortuzzo a look over Lovejoy from the beginning of the season? We know what Lovejoy brings. We know that he is cheap injury cover and not a solution. It is beyond me.

Nor can I understand (tangentially relevant here, at least) those who are finding religion with Niskanen and considering him largely untradeable (Niskanen is a fine player) without seeing that it is more important adding certain qualities - the shortage of which has greatly contributed to failure - than adding more or the same.

We could do the PP with a Letang focus now, but I have been saying the same stuff for years there, so I will leave it for now.

The bottom line is that to me, before looking at the forward group that is one top line forward and a Kunitz not indecently out of shape from being AWESOME, why not focus our (BYLSMA's) attention on eminently solvable problems that should be obvious to all (I will keep Fleury out of this as I might have painted myself into a corner as a resident hater, as well as staying out of 'accountability' where I am all on Jiggy's waggon)?

I could get behind Bylsma more or less unconditionally if I saw indications that our flaws were being recognized. But I don't.

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Old
02-01-2013, 06:53 AM
  #241
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I guess everyone missed Despres two horrible horrible turnovers in his own zone? And takes a bad penalty, yeah everyone seems to forget just cause he scored coming out of the box. The one turnover was so bad I thought it was a goal long before anything even developed.


He played OK at best made a few good plays and a few bad ones... lots of mental mistakes. Has talent though. Just saying if the same guy has "Paul Martin" on his jersey, he would be getting --------------- from everyone.

Maybe these are just prospective pluses...

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02-01-2013, 07:00 AM
  #242
Al Smith
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I guess everyone missed Despres two horrible horrible turnovers in his own zone? And takes a bad penalty, yeah everyone seems to forget just cause he scored coming out of the box. The one turnover was so bad I thought it was a goal long before anything even developed.


He played OK at best made a few good plays and a few bad ones... lots of mental mistakes. Has talent though.
I remember one horrible giveaway, and don't doubt he had another. I gave him a plus just because he's playing so much better than he was, plus it was really nice to see someone/anyone score a goal other than Malkin/Crosby/Neal. He's still got a long way to go, but you can definitely see the tools to be a top 4

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02-01-2013, 07:04 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Al Smith View Post
I remember one horrible giveaway, and don't doubt he had another. I gave him a plus just because he's playing so much better than he was, plus it was really nice to see someone/anyone score a goal other than Malkin/Crosby/Neal. He's still got a long way to go, but you can definitely see the tools to be a top 4


Yeah, i'm not bashing the kid, and think he has a bright future. I'm just surprised to see basically every single person give him a plus with the mistakes he made.


He'll get better... really I think a lot of his mistakes seem to come from 'not knowing the system' well. He seems to get lost as to where his support is.

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02-01-2013, 07:08 AM
  #244
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Yeah, the Despres plus/minus standard is definitely different than the Lovejoy/last year's Martin standard.

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02-01-2013, 07:12 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
Yeah, i'm not bashing the kid, and think he has a bright future. I'm just surprised to see basically every single person give him a plus with the mistakes he made.


He'll get better... really I think a lot of his mistakes seem to come from 'not knowing the system' well. He seems to get lost as to where his support is.
because most posters understand that kids will make mistakes.the sooner you let them play through them, the sooner they stop. Mistakes aren't necessarily a "bad thing", they are part of the process. There's a segment of the board (which I happen to be a part of) that believes it's better to let those players play through it, rather than benching them for players who just aren't good (Ben Lovejoy)

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02-01-2013, 07:15 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I guess everyone missed Despres two horrible horrible turnovers in his own zone? And takes a bad penalty, yeah everyone seems to forget just cause he scored coming out of the box. The one turnover was so bad I thought it was a goal long before anything even developed.


He played OK at best made a few good plays and a few bad ones... lots of mental mistakes. Has talent though. Just saying if the same guy has "Paul Martin" on his jersey, he would be getting --------------- from everyone.

Maybe these are just prospective pluses...
As far as I can remember, he had one horrible turnover where he tried to do too much and passed up an easy breakout, and a bad penalty. Aside from that he seemed to cover up his mistakes, won his individual battles, played physical, had several nice outlet passes off the boards and had some nice plays in the offensive zone including the assist and goal.

I would say the good outweighed the bad, and for a rookie playing 13 minutes I'd say he looked very good. I was never concerned about letting up a goal when he was on the ice (aside from on the one turnover). Unfortunately I can't say the same about when Bortuzzo (and previously Lovejoy) was on the ice.

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Old
02-01-2013, 07:23 AM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I guess everyone missed Despres two horrible horrible turnovers in his own zone? And takes a bad penalty, yeah everyone seems to forget just cause he scored coming out of the box. The one turnover was so bad I thought it was a goal long before anything even developed.


He played OK at best made a few good plays and a few bad ones... lots of mental mistakes. Has talent though. Just saying if the same guy has "Paul Martin" on his jersey, he would be getting --------------- from everyone.

Maybe these are just prospective pluses...
I mentioned in detail both of Despres' mistakes and saw several others such as Mtl mention it as well.

Not sure what gave you the impression people overlooked those turnovers.

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Old
02-01-2013, 07:25 AM
  #248
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As far as I can remember, he had one horrible turnover where he tried to do too much and passed up an easy breakout, and a bad penalty. Aside from that he seemed to cover up his mistakes, won his individual battles, played physical, had several nice outlet passes off the boards and had some nice plays in the offensive zone including the assist and goal.

I would say the good outweighed the bad, and for a rookie playing 13 minutes I'd say he looked very good. I was never concerned about letting up a goal when he was on the ice (aside from on the one turnover). Unfortunately I can't say the same about when Bortuzzo (and previously Lovejoy) was on the ice.
For me i think its the fact he bounced back from the mistakes stronger. As a rookie he has the talent, just needs to find the confidence. I think last nights game is huge for him.

Another problem with this team is the failure to convert on odd-man situations. Not just convert, but at least get the shot away. Waay too many missed opportunities in this game.

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:16 AM
  #249
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- Me for DVR-ing Tuesday's game and not this one.

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02-01-2013, 08:18 AM
  #250
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What I notice is we play really really badly after we take a lead. It's happened a lot so far in 2013. We look good at 0-0, but when we take a lead it seems we stop skating, stop hitting, stop forechecking...I don't know why, but we fall into a shell.

It's not unlike how we played against the Flyers last spring, albeit less spastically.

This Rangers team has to be among the most overrated all time. Such an ugly way to play hockey. It's garbage.

That said, I hate our game too these days. Glad for Despres, he looks great.

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