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Old
02-01-2013, 08:23 AM
  #301
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
ROR at the age of 20 put up 55 points. Hecht only broke 50 points twice: 52 and 56. I don't get what the point of your first few sentences are. You seem to be saying there are a lot of players who start out as good two-way guys and somehow ... get worse? The truth is there are few players who start out at the pro level (much less NHL) as a strong two-way all-situations guy. ROR is basically a shut-down center who put up 55 points as a 20 year old. What is not significant about that?

Also, I don't know how you can discern how Colorado values him simply based on the lack of a contractual agreement. We're only talking a matter of a week or two from when Benn's agreement was reached, now PK Subban's. That hardly says anything.
yea... it's not like some young speedy players start out playing a 3rd "option" role and produce some offense in spurts and then go on to be just average depth offensive hockey players...

That's not common at all...

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02-01-2013, 08:34 AM
  #302
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Would you offer sheet ROR?

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02-01-2013, 08:34 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
ROR at the age of 20 put up 55 points. Hecht only broke 50 points twice: 52 and 56. I don't get what the point of your first few sentences are. You seem to be saying there are a lot of players who start out as good two-way guys and somehow ... get worse? The truth is there are few players who start out at the pro level (much less NHL) as a strong two-way all-situations guy. ROR is basically a shut-down center who put up 55 points as a 20 year old. What is not significant about that?

Also, I don't know how you can discern how Colorado values him simply based on the lack of a contractual agreement. We're only talking a matter of a week or two from when Benn's agreement was reached, now PK Subban's. That hardly says anything.
I'm not suggesting he'll get worse, but we don't know how much better he'll get. Hecht broke into the league when he was 22 and had 34 points in 63 games and was a +20. He never really improved in a PPG standard. What he was then is what he always was. A good two way player who could chip in a little bit of offense. If others around here want to throw around names like Toews and Datsyuk, I think it's more than fair to throw Jochen Hecht into the ring.

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02-01-2013, 08:43 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Prospector74 View Post
Would you offer sheet ROR?
I would prefer we did whatever it took to get him (including offersheet)

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02-01-2013, 08:47 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm not suggesting he'll get worse, but we don't know how much better he'll get. Hecht broke into the league when he was 22 and had 34 points in 63 games and was a +20. He never really improved in a PPG standard. What he was then is what he always was. A good two way player who could chip in a little bit of offense. If others around here want to throw around names like Toews and Datsyuk, I think it's more than fair to throw Jochen Hecht into the ring.
So, we don't know how much better Ennis will get either then... right?

And so far, Oreilly is younger, plays a more complete game, and has out performed Ennis best season.

hmmm

PS You were probably too young to watch Hecht when he came into the league. He was not used in a shutdown role like Oreilly. He didn't play center like Oreilly. He didn't PK at all like Oreilly.

Jochen DEVELOPED a 2 way game later in his career. Oreilly was drafted because of his 2 way game.

It's a terrible comparison.

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02-01-2013, 08:49 AM
  #306
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Pens fan, I come in peace. I have been able to catch of couple Sabres games, and I was wondering if you guys would be open to the idea of trading Marcus Foligno? I assume not, but it does not hurt to ask.

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02-01-2013, 08:51 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
Pens fan, I come in peace. I have been able to catch of couple Sabres games, and I was wondering if you guys would be open to the idea of trading Marcus Foligno? I assume not, but it does not hurt to ask.
You're going to get deluged with a lot of "ZOMG, no way," but the answer is a simple no. He'll be around in Buffalo for awhile.

Jordan Leopold for Dustin Jeffrey + 4th? Please?

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02-01-2013, 08:51 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
Pens fan, I come in peace. I have been able to catch of couple Sabres games, and I was wondering if you guys would be open to the idea of trading Marcus Foligno? I assume not, but it does not hurt to ask.
nope.

We traded Kassian, because we had Foligno....

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02-01-2013, 08:54 AM
  #309
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Ok, to clear up some info about O'Reilly:

O'Reilly is the best player the Avs have right now. I say this as an Avs fan. Sure in the future Duchene and Landeskog will be better, but O'Reilly came into the league more ready, and he tries harder. Many news stories have come out about O'Reilly running up and down arena stairs after a loss, of busting his tail and working out before practice begins. When Colorado has gotten in ruts, it was ROR that would come out of no where with a short-handed goal. Lando played on his line last year and by the middle of the year THAT line was considered by most to be our first line. People keep getting hung up on ROR being a "Third line center" but Colorado doesn't have a third line, heck they don't have a first line. Colorado has three 2nd lines for better or worse.

On a "soft" Buffalo team that has been criticized for not giving it their all every night (Again I say this as a Buffalo fan) would it not be an amazing addition to have a guy who will bust his tail even when Vanek is on a low streak?

You know what most Avs fan's response to this situation is? Find a way to unload Stastny and pay O'Reilly what ever he wants. So the question is, if the same situation was happening with Ennis would Buffalo fans be screaming to unload Vanek in order to sign Ennis? That should be a big testament to O'Reilly's value.

I'm not saying a deal involving Ennis wouldn't be beneficial to Colorado if the HAVE to give up O'Reilly (Read: Management is too cheap to keep ROR) but as a fan of both teams, the idea that Ennis is worth more than ROR is silly.

I've almost given up hope is Colorado's team management, where as Buffalo is starting to build some great pieces moving forward. I'd love to see ROR in a Sabres jersey, though I'd love to see him in a Avs jersey with the C which I still believe he deserved over Lando.

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02-01-2013, 08:55 AM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You're going to get deluged with a lot of "ZOMG, no way," but the answer is a simple no. He'll be around in Buffalo for awhile.

Jordan Leopold for Dustin Jeffrey + 4th? Please?
Thanks for the classy response.

I would be open to moving Jeffery, but I (some other Pens fans will disagree) am in favor of rolling with the D we currently have, so I would decline the offer. I think the value is pretty fair though.

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:55 AM
  #311
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You also missed the point that was being made was referencing top tier 2 way centers.... it's not about directly comparing Oreilly to those players... it's about recognizing the importance of having players that can do DEFENSIVELY what those guys do. It's arguably the most important skill set come playoff time

The Sabres have NO ONE that can do what a shutdown top 6 center can do.

I think something between Kesler and Mike Richards with high end of Mikko is a better direct comparison. But I completely agree with the reference to Cup winners and their shut down top 6 centers (dats, staal, richards, Bergeron, etc)

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02-01-2013, 09:12 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I don't think Regier has the balls that Muckler had (mogilny trade)

come to think of it... what trades has regier made that didn't involve either prospects, ELC contracts, or pending UFAs ?

trading a veteran with another year left on his contract... not really regier's style, right?
The Warrener/Drury trade was pretty ballsy at the time. Grosek for Gilmour/Dumont was another.

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02-01-2013, 10:01 AM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So, we don't know how much better Ennis will get either then... right?

And so far, Oreilly is younger, plays a more complete game, and has out performed Ennis best season.

hmmm

PS You were probably too young to watch Hecht when he came into the league. He was not used in a shutdown role like Oreilly. He didn't play center like Oreilly. He didn't PK at all like Oreilly.

Jochen DEVELOPED a 2 way game later in his career. Oreilly was drafted because of his 2 way game.

It's a terrible comparison.
There's just so much wrong with this post. Ennis has had a higher PPG both seasons, so no, he wasn't outperformed. Hecht was drafted as a two way player. And based on the maturity level of your posts, questioning someone's age seems like something you shouldn't do.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:10 AM
  #314
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If we are going to offer sheet anyone I'll pass on O'Reilly and wait and see if Giroux makes it to being a RFA. If he does, I would gladly give Giroux the highest paid contract in the league, gladly send our next 4 1st rounders and laugh in joy having 2 elite center men (Grigorenko a future elite C) for the next 7 years that would put the Briere-Drury combo to shame. Once Grigs develops A Giroux-Grigorenko combo would be near a Malkin-Crosby duo, as long as Grigs develops how we all think he will.

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02-01-2013, 10:21 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
If we are going to offer sheet anyone I'll pass on O'Reilly and wait and see if Giroux makes it to being a RFA. If he does, I would gladly give Giroux the highest paid contract in the league, gladly send our next 4 1st rounders and laugh in joy having 2 elite center men (Grigorenko a future elite C) for the next 7 years that would put the Briere-Drury combo to shame. Once Grigs develops A Giroux-Grigorenko combo would be near a Malkin-Crosby duo, as long as Grigs develops how we all think he will.
They would match but it would still be funny to make philly overpay after what they did to nashville

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02-01-2013, 10:42 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
There's just so much wrong with this post. Ennis has had a higher PPG both seasons, so no, he wasn't outperformed. Hecht was drafted as a two way player. And based on the maturity level of your posts, questioning someone's age seems like something you shouldn't do.
So you think Ennis was better than Oreilly last year because of PPG?

lol

Being "drafted" as a 2 way player... and BEING an NHL Shutdown center at 21 yrs old are entirely different things. I'm not surprised that you don't understand the difference.

When you are a fanboy of specific players it leads to completely irrational responses to their inclusion in a trade proposal.

You react this way to every proposal or post that includes Ennis in any way (See Bobby Ryan proposals, or Hodgson debates)

You aren't credible

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02-01-2013, 10:44 AM
  #317
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People didn't want to trade Ennis of J Staal either.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:46 AM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
If we are going to offer sheet anyone I'll pass on O'Reilly and wait and see if Giroux makes it to being a RFA. If he does, I would gladly give Giroux the highest paid contract in the league, gladly send our next 4 1st rounders and laugh in joy having 2 elite center men (Grigorenko a future elite C) for the next 7 years that would put the Briere-Drury combo to shame. Once Grigs develops A Giroux-Grigorenko combo would be near a Malkin-Crosby duo, as long as Grigs develops how we all think he will.
Philly would match any offer made...

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #319
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If thinking that it's ridiculous to throw our most talented young forward into every trade proposal makes me a fanboy, than so be it. You don't get better by trading your best players.

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02-01-2013, 10:54 AM
  #320
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If thinking that it's ridiculous to throw our most talented young forward into every trade proposal makes me a fanboy, than so be it. You don't get better by trading your best players.
Sabres history shows that to be the opposite: Housley for Hawerchuk was an upgrade; Turgeon for LaFontaine was an upgrade. A lateral move isn't for the best unless its to move a malcontent, however upgrading that position isn't a bad idea. Ennis is a dynamic player that I wouldn't want to move for movement sake, but I'd gladly package an undersized player for an upgrade.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:57 AM
  #321
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If thinking that it's ridiculous to throw our most talented young forward into every trade proposal makes me a fanboy, than so be it. You don't get better by trading your best players.
John Muckler disagrees... and it led to a cup final
(Mogilny for Peca)

PS There is a difference between "talented young player" and "best players"...Ennis isn't one of the 5 best Sabres right now.

You treat Ennis like he's arrived, and O'reilly like he has to prove something still. Your bias is known.

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02-01-2013, 11:03 AM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
John Muckler disagrees... and it led to a cup final
(Mogilny for Peca)

PS There is a difference between "talented young player" and "best players"...Ennis isn't one of the 5 best Sabres right now.

You treat Ennis like he's arrived, and O'reilly like he has to prove something still. Your bias is known.
As is yours.

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02-01-2013, 11:05 AM
  #323
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As is yours.
Yes, my bias for shutdown centers over small, flashy, offensive forwards is well known.

It's the same bias held by most NHL GMs.

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02-01-2013, 11:10 AM
  #324
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Yes, I would take Kesler over Roy
Yes, I would take M.Richards over Hudler
and Yes, I would take Oreilly over Ennis

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:10 AM
  #325
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So can we start shopping for a defenseman now?

And yes, ROR would be an ideal talent for the Sabres due to his ability to shut people down and produce offensively while doing it. That's also why I don't think there is any way to get him out of Colorado without using an offersheet.

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