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This is a Bad Hockey Team: Part 2

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:19 PM
  #326
1940rip
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Is it just me or has Hagelin really not been taking advantage of his speed nearly as much as he did last year? Seems like the team isn't putting the puck into open spaces and letting him beat everyone else to it. He's shown more energy the last couple games, but his explosive speed has not been showcased.
I have to disagree. He's been explosive, particularly the last 2 games. He's getting and setting up, chances because of it. He's just not finishing...story of our collective NYR existence...that, and taking dumb penalties that result in goals against. But utilizing his speed has been the least of his issues to this point...IMHO.

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02-01-2013, 12:19 PM
  #327
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Let's be realistic for a second. Talking about forward depth specifically, Erixon being a dman and not entirely NHL ready still, doesn't really count. We traded two forwards and got one back. Yes, of course 2 for 1 means less depth, but is that what caused this lack of depth? Really? Being one man down after the trade?

No. The poor choice of signings is what caused it. Rupp was a poor signing two years ago. He barely played last year and we had depth to bury him behind, so it didn't matter. Now he's a regular.

The depth that we lost, ignoring Dubinsky and Anisimov, was Prust, Fedetenko, Mitchell, Christensen. Let's say we replaced Dubi and Arty with Nash and Kreider. We replaced Prust with Asham. Big downgrade. We replaced Mitchell with Halpern; big downgrade. Mitchell killed penalties, was given a lot more ES time and actually could put up points. We replaced Fedetenko with Pyatt. You could call it a lateral move but Fedetenko was a bit quicker (scary, I know) and the overall better player, especially defensively. And Christensen... we couldn't stand him, but who would you rather have when injuries happen and we need someone to slot in? Christensen or Bickel? Or Newbury? And Kreider, for the time being, is a big downgrade from both Dubinsky and Anisimov. In the end, what do you get? A roster that upgraded one position while downgrading 4-5 others in a SIGNIFICANT way.

But how many of those downgrades are a direct result of the Nash trade and how many are poor decisions from Sather and Torts? Fedetenko signed in Philly for 1.75M. We paid him 1.5M the year before. Why would we elect not to bring him back at that price? John Mitchell had a .99M cap hit last year and makes 1.1M in Colorado. Why not bring him back at that price? Why did we make unnecessary changes to a team that was in game 6 of the ECF? I understand pulling the trigger on the trade, especially after Kreider's playoff performance makes it look like he can replace one of the two guys, but Fedetenko, Mitchell and even Prust (I'm sure we could have gotten him to take 2M or 1.9M or something - and yes, he'd be overpaid, but we would be SO much better) should all have been brought back, no brainer. We could have kept all three and only given a raise to Prust, and it would have only been a ~1M raise. 1.25M more on the cap to keep all three is not much. This team would have a lot more heart, a lot more cohesion and a Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line would get 12+ minutes a game without fail, giving the other guys a rest.

Moveover, we kind of lost the identity that made the team so lovable in the first place.

Callahan
Dubinsky
Anisimov
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Hagelin
Boyle
Prust
Fedetenko
Kreider
Mitchell
Rupp


Callahan
Richards
Gaborik
Nash
Stepan
Hagelin
Pyatt
Boyle
Halpern
Kreider
Asham
Rupp
Ferriero



We went from this tight knit, homegrown, young, high energy team that grew up in the system (or became what they are: Boyle + Prust in the system) to a top heavy junk yard team. After the first 5 names our roster is a bunch of scraps now.
I agree that the Nash trade alone isn't what the sole cause for our lack of depth - I thought our depth last year wasn't great, and it's gotten worse due in part to FA departures as well as the trade.

Nash and Kreider were supposed to replace Anisimov and Dubi in theory, but they were never really direct replacements for either of those players. Anisimov and Dubi had were versatile players who had the ability to play both wing and center, and they also played a solid two-way game. Our center depth took a hit without them and there's no one to replace Stepan when he struggles. As you mentioned, we also lost some of our identity as well.

I think we are on the same page here. The roster as constructed is flawed and I never thought I'd miss the likes of EC or Mitchell but they'd be an improvement over our non-existent spare forward and 4th liners right now. Kinda surprised that Sather isn't taking more heat for not addressing obvious issues such as a 4th line that is even slower and less effective than it was last year and the lack of a 6th defenseman.

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:20 PM
  #328
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It's not meant as an insult. I like Boyle fine. But he is what he is. The point was that outside of a few standout names, a team that was very deep and cohesive is now a team with a third line and then a bunch of "odds and ends" (there, do you like that wording better than "scrap"? You can have a good odd or end). The point is it's like a barrel of random players with no design on how they fit together. Guys who were perfect fits were arbitrarily cut loose in favor of new odds and ends without any real logic behind it. Boyle can look 'pretty damn good' all he wants (and I agree) but it's NEVER going to win you a hockey game. I'd give a toe to have Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko getting 12 minutes a night ES right now.
Okay, I see what you mean and I agree.

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02-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #329
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I have to disagree. He's been explosive, particularly the last 2 games. He's getting and setting up, chances because of it. He's just not finishing...story of our collective NYR existence...that, and taking dumb penalties that result in goals against. But utilizing his speed has been the least of his issues to this point...IMHO.
I agree he's looked much better the last two games. But even in those I can't remember one time when he streaked down the ice to get to a puck before everyone else besides one time when he was gassed at the end of a shift.

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02-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I don't know what this "pretty" BS is. Swapping Prust, Fedetenko, Mitchell and Dubinsky for Asham, Pyatt, Halpern and Kreider (who right now might as well be Halpern without PKing) are all big time downgrades and take away from the identity that drove this team. Only Dubinsky was part of the trade for Nash. There's no reason we shouldn't have kept the Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line together. I understand not wanting to pay Prust 2M but we did not find an adequate replacement, whatsoever. Fedetenko should have stayed because he's a cheap vet who played the system to a T, PKd well and had chemistry with his line. Mitchell should have stayed at the same price he was earning. Why sign a 36 year old and inferior Halpern over him? I'm not talking about aesthetics here, in case you're lost. The roster lost cohesion, lost depth, lost players we KNEW we could rely on, and lost identity. That's ugly. The collection of scraps we brought in to fill the holes is a problem.
Oh, you're not?

Considering hindsight is 20/20, the only moves that I think most people disagreed with at the time they were made was letting Prust go (even at 2m) and maybe Fedotenko. It's easy to say now we should have kept Mitchell over Halpern, and brought back Feds.

Kreider's hurt, Halpern has not been playing up to expectations (just like Mitchell is playing above expectations in Colorado), and Asham's Asham.

End of the day, it's 7 games into a shortened season with no training camp. Give it time. Right now it look's ugly and some wrong moves were made.

Personally I think the biggest problem with our team is we essentially have only 4 D playing a night. Why the bottom pairing wasn't/hasn't been addressed is a mystery to me.

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02-01-2013, 12:22 PM
  #331
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I think Prust is the most missed element at the moment. Quick, threw the body, great forecheck, great PK and tough. None of the older, slower guys he was "replaced" with do any of those things.

edit: to clarify, I think Prust got paid too much by MTL. But I still miss him on this team.

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02-01-2013, 12:27 PM
  #332
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All the moves we made would be less conspicuous in normal season with a camp, preseason, etc. In this condescended shortened season it is exposing this lack of “gel time” and making it a weakness. Call it an excuse, and I don’t like saying it but it’s the truth. Krieder needed the benefit of a full camp, same with Hagelin and some of the new guys. No pass for Stepan.

The coach said recently that he won’t play his bottom lines/pairings because he views them as “liabilities”. This is unfortunate. Why sign players that your coach doesn’t have confidence in? Why not keep the players he does?

On Prust, and players like him in this organization in the past (Avery). While I realize that it’s not smart to spend top $ on bottom six players, many bottom 6 players play crucial roles on their teams. When you part ways with these players you run the risk of losing the “intangibles” that make a team successful.

Prust was thrust into a role on this team, not so much for his overall skill set, but for his tenacity and will. If the coach and org. value these attributes to be successful in their system... DON’T LET PLAYERS LIKE THIS WALK AWAY! Unless you have players in the system that can adequately fill their place.

Now it’s possible that Asham, Pyatt, and Halpern can effectively replace Prust, Feds, and Mitchell, but the lack of camp, preseason, long layoff, shortened season, win now shortened bench coach...

makes this a lot harder....

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02-01-2013, 12:28 PM
  #333
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Oh, you're not?

Considering hindsight is 20/20, the only moves that I think most people disagreed with at the time they were made was letting Prust go (even at 2m) and maybe Fedotenko. It's easy to say now we should have kept Mitchell over Halpern, and brought back Feds.

Kreider's hurt, Halpern has not been playing up to expectations (just like Mitchell is playing above expectations in Colorado), and Asham's Asham.

End of the day, it's 7 games into a shortened season with no training camp. Give it time. Right now it look's ugly and some wrong moves were made.

Okay, so forget Mitchell/Halpern, because, as you rightly say, hindsight is 20/20. We have Halpern, no big deal.

Now, never sign Asham, and bring back Feds and Prust. We're still a much better team, just by doing that. See, you keep saying Feds is easy to say he should have been brought back now, but even with all the line juggling last year, the one constant was Boyle, Prust, Feds. It should have been kept. We used it constantly. More than most of us even liked. Every game. It was effective. And, overall, it was cheap and still would be (it would be what, a 5M line, total?). Why let pieces that fit perfectly go when the team is doing so well, has such a strong identity and those pieces fit that identity and the system to the T? Just to turn around and bring in Pyatt's and Asham's and Halpern's? We took a team that had a specific construction and swapped integral, if not standout, pieces it for literal scraps.


Nash - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Stepan - Gaborik
Feds - Boyle - Prust
Rupp - Halpern - Ferriero/Kreider

is much better. Just should have kept the Boyle, Prust, Feds line together. Torts used it more steadily than any other combination.

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:28 PM
  #334
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That would've killed our center depth.
Dubinsky plays both center and wing. I know he's better on the wing, but it's not like he's a stranger to center.

Dubi was a perfect 2nd/3rd liner for this system with his forechecking and his play along the boards. Although he was inconsistent when it came to scoring goals, he still worked his tail off and got things done that's not getting done now. He knew how to forecheck. He had a scoring touch despite his inconsistencies. He was a huge part of our identity.
That's what we're missing. We show signs of it, but it's not a Ranger type hockey going on.

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Stepan, along with Hagelin and McDonagh were our only good players last night. he will produce as he always has. Dubi was very frustating to watch. He is a warrior but there are alot of holes in his game and he already reached his potential. Step has plenty of room to grow. I'll take my chances with Step.
I agree to an extent, but Stepan is also frustrating to watch. He has good playmaking skills, but he's not strong on the puck. He's soft, I think. I do think his potential is higher than Dubinsky's and he's 22 (?), so that's a plus. We'll see what happens.

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02-01-2013, 12:28 PM
  #335
NY Lito
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Originally Posted by Wamsutta View Post
I think Prust is the most missed element at the moment. Quick, threw the body, great forecheck, great PK and tough. None of the older, slower guys he was "replaced" with do any of those things.

edit: to clarify, I think Prust got paid too much by MTL. But I still miss him on this team.
It's funny, his contract seems like a serious over-payment by MTL. But how many Prusts are there in the NHL? Guys like him can be invaluable. He's not just a 4th line grinder. He 's a special player (for his role).

Not saying we should have given him that contract...but maybe we should have?

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02-01-2013, 12:32 PM
  #336
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It's funny, his contract seems like a serious over-payment by MTL. But how many Prusts are there in the NHL? Guys like him can be invaluable. He's not just a 4th line grinder. He 's a special player (for his role).

Not saying we should have given him that contract...but maybe we should have?
I miss Prust too and I wish we could've re-signed him, but you don't give a 4th line grinder/fighter those terms.

I'm sure we can find another 4th liner out there that we'll all grow to love that has speed, who fights and forechecks his heart out for much less.

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02-01-2013, 12:37 PM
  #337
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There will be those who will disagree, but I feel the depth issues will solve themselves next season.

Lindberg, Fast, and Miller will be playing for spots in camp. If Lindberg and Fast bring the same level of overall game and talent they are displaying in the SEL, they will be big additions. Especially Lindberg who can win faceoffs and is very good defensively.

These three are more akin to the identity this club had last year, and the identity Tortorella looks for.

They will also make us a more mobile team. We aren't a fast team. Not fast enough overall to win races to pucks, which doesn't help when you dump and chase more often then not.

As far as this season...it is what it is. Callahan and Kreider need to get back into the lineup when they are healthy.

Lacking foot speed, not winning races to pucks, can't gain control of the puck. Lack of possession. A team with Gaborik, Richards, and Nash should have the puck more. A lack of a defenseman that can consistently contribute to a quick transition. Bad on faceoffs.

No consistent puck possession = lack of offensive pressure.

We are fine defensively, as a team. But with no attack any team will get worn out.

Sather needs to find a way to rid this roster of Rupp and Asham in the summer. They are useless. Slow, and devoid of any skill. They don't contribute, which shortens the bench. I knew these two would be an issue. They're awful. Replace them with dirt cheap, fast, pains in the ass. Guys that Tortorella can use.

And we need one more defenseman. One who can skate. Our transition game has got to improve. If you can't get the puck out and up the ice quicker, how the heck are they going to attack more consistently?

One of the big contracts may have to go.

Sather better be smart this trade deadline and spring/summer.

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02-01-2013, 12:43 PM
  #338
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Isles fan coming in peace...One of the keys to Rangers season was for Krieder and Stepan to develop into consistant 2nd line players. If this doesn't happen, where is secondary scoring supposed to come from? Forward depth was always going to be the potential achillies heal for this team. That being said, I don't see how things don't get better, D and Goaltending is too good.

...I will hopefully diffuse any anti-Islander responses to my post by saying I still think the chances Isles finish above Rangers to be quite small.


Last edited by Bob Richards: 02-01-2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason: No Rags, please.
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02-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  #339
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It's also kind of frustrating that we couldn't find internal replacements for Mitchell, Prust, Feds, etc. It always seems like we have far too much money wrapped up in the bottom 6, especially on the 4th line, and it would be a lot cheaper if the players were young and homegrown. The team invests too much money in the 4th line by going the free agent route, and that money is not well spent since the 4th line is rarely effective.

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02-01-2013, 12:48 PM
  #340
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This is da bad team, but we lost because of Vokoun. We had same SOG as opposition, but G stood on his head. Excellent rebound control and positioning. The Gabo redirect into between the pads save will be shown in 10 best.

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02-01-2013, 12:50 PM
  #341
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This is da bad team, but we lost because of Vokoun. We had same SOG as opposition, but G stood on his head. Excellent rebound control and positioning. The Gabo redirect into between the pads save will be shown in 10 best.
I disagree. The Penguins had how many odd-man rushes and breakaways? The Rangers took their usual load of completely vanilla shots. Pittsburgh is a good team but it isn't like any of their players stood on their heads yesterday. We just played....bad. Real bad.

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02-01-2013, 12:52 PM
  #342
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If we made one of those close calls (Gaborik deflection, Staal's post, Stralman's post), the whole face of the game could've changed. We could've had a W if we had a bounce or two.

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02-01-2013, 12:54 PM
  #343
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I don't like this argument because the Rangers themselves are suppose to be a top team.
Doesn't bode well when you're a contender having trouble against teams you will need to get by come playoffs.
I mostly agree. But those teams, except Pittsburgh, had trouble with the Rangers and they're supposed to be contenders.

I'd be concerned if it was 25 games into the season and we've lost consistently against top teams and lost convincingly.

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02-01-2013, 12:56 PM
  #344
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The team looked very good on paper until it became evident that Stepan, Kreider, and Hagelin didn't progress as rapidly as expected and Kreider and Callahan went down with injuries.

Too much MMQB'ing going on in this thread, IMO. Would I have liked to have retained Mitchell and Fedotenko? Sure. Prust was a goner with his contract demands. Dubinsky was a terrible value for his contract. Anisimov I liked but was certainly expendable when the return is someone like Nash.

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02-01-2013, 12:57 PM
  #345
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It's also kind of frustrating that we couldn't find internal replacements for Mitchell, Prust, Feds, etc. It always seems like we have far too much money wrapped up in the bottom 6, especially on the 4th line, and it would be a lot cheaper if the players were young and homegrown. The team invests too much money in the 4th line by going the free agent route, and that money is not well spent since the 4th line is rarely effective.
Agree completely.

For all the fawning I've seen on here about organization depth, it sure seems to be concentrated to 2nd/3rd line tweeners. Redundant.

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02-01-2013, 01:02 PM
  #346
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The Rangers can't afford to have $2.5M invested in one player such as Prust. They split the same money for Pyatt and Asham. Fedotenko got $1.75M for one year. Mitchell got 2 years/$2.2M. The Rangers replaced Prust,Fedotenko and Mitchell with cheaper salaries. Lets not make it seem the Rangers broke the 1976-1979 Canadiens.

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02-01-2013, 01:03 PM
  #347
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It's also kind of frustrating that we couldn't find internal replacements for Mitchell, Prust, Feds, etc. It always seems like we have far too much money wrapped up in the bottom 6, especially on the 4th line, and it would be a lot cheaper if the players were young and homegrown. The team invests too much money in the 4th line by going the free agent route, and that money is not well spent since the 4th line is rarely effective.
Going to have to wait until next year.

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02-01-2013, 01:05 PM
  #348
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The Rangers can't afford to have $2.5M invested in one player such as Prust. They split the same money for Pyatt and Asham. Fedotenko got $1.75M for one year. Mitchell got 2 years/$2.2M. The Rangers replaced Prust,Fedotenko and Mitchell with cheaper salaries. Lets not make it seem the Rangers broke the 1976-1979 Canadiens.
When I analyze why this team has lost more games than its won, the losses of guys like Prust, Fedotenko, and Mitchell ranks about 87th on the list.

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02-01-2013, 01:05 PM
  #349
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If we made one of those close calls (Gaborik deflection, Staal's post, Stralman's post), the whole face of the game could've changed. We could've had a W if we had a bounce or two.
We could've had a win had we generated any sustained pressure and created quality scoring chances in the 2 periods we were down 1-0 .

The Pens could've just as easily blew the game open with their numerous odd-man rushes or when Crosby had all day in front of Hank. Nothing about the way we played lead me to believe we could've won that game. I think the posts came when we were down 3-0 anyway...maybe 2-0. Can't remember. Trying to forget that disaster of a game.

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02-01-2013, 01:06 PM
  #350
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Going to have to wait until next year.
So may be a palyoff berth.

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