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Old
01-29-2013, 03:16 PM
  #501
Superbowlfishca
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Contraction and Adjustment

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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
I'm also curious what could happen to other teams in the league if Saskatoon enters and is able to compete something like Regina. Will teams like Humboldt and Estevan (and even West Central, on a year when they don't important anyone) be able to stay competitive, or will the league have to contract even more?
The argument to "contract" has been discussed extensivly on this board. In SK this does not work, because geographically our populatiosn is too spread out. This makes travel for those families in "AA" hockey almost impossible and its already bad for many.(Over 1 hour to and from practices).
The solution is for SHA to monitor AA programs year over year and adjust the "zones" as necessary. They may have to tweek the closest center rule even though I think the implementaion of this rule ahd been very good for SK hockey since SHA set it up.
I like the analysis of actual participation per capita. SHA has these numbers and should be able to alot teams to the cities based on how they compare to other centers in the league.
SHA should not make any quick and dirty adjustments short term. We all know that player talent levels vary drastically zone to zone - year over year. Regina would be a good example of this as they are very strong in the 98 year and weaker in the 99 year. Saskatoon is the opposite. But if a team like Humbolt can not compete year over year and a team like North East are dominant year over year a tweek should be considered.
I love the fact Saskatoon is coming into the league. It will be great for their program. Gives the kids something to shoot for and they no longer have to play each other over and over. Also it stengthens SBAAHL overall. This is cruicial to player development because from what I have seen Saskatoon does a great job of player development(Although again i dont know their participation numbers per capita.) Strong competition from Saskatoon teams makes everyone better.

ONE final comment and it has been made over and over on these boards. The programs that develop and support their coaching the best will always be the programs that have the msot success.

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01-29-2013, 06:22 PM
  #502
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re: contraction and adjustment

I agree 100% Superbowlfish about the geographical problems of contracting the teams in the league. I have been a parent who had to drive 2 hours for every practice (an hour there and an hour home) playing in our closest centre. It is much too costly and time consuming to expect players and parents to go even further.

Another possible solution to make the smaller centers more competitive is for home centres to quit limiting the number of out-of-town players allowed on the team. I know this practice is put in place to "protect" players who live within city boundaries, but let's face facts...if a player is not good enough to make a AA team on their own ability then they would be better off playing in a Tier II or house league. People get too caught up with the AA on the jacket. I don't know how many centres have these rules but I do know they exist. The AA teams should be considered zone teams and everyone within the zone should have an equal chance at every spot on the team.

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01-29-2013, 11:44 PM
  #503
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Puck talk and Super Bowl.... Excellent points and it is nice to see that others believe in coach retention as a building block for success. I further agree that any centre who has a local player rule should carefully re examine this. If you are taking a mediocre local player over a highly skilled rural player you are making a grave mistake. One, you are selecting with an agenda, two, you are not giving the rural kid a chance. I have experienced this in the past. Centre pride must take a back seat to talent in every case. Your idea of AA centres as more of an SHA zone concept is an excellent idea.

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Old
01-30-2013, 12:52 PM
  #504
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Enrollment Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
It seems like there are a few assumptions being made here that could be questioned:

- The idea that the "minor league affiliate" proposal was some sort of attempt to change the perception of tier 2 and the first step on a slippery slope toward player contracts, etc. As Dickiedunn suggested, maybe it was just a proposed structure to allow better coordination between the AA team and the tier 2 teams to avoid scheduling / incentive conflicts when players need to be called up.

- The idea that population is directly related to the availability of AA calibre players. Wouldn't it be more useful to look at hockey enrollment rates? Just because more people live in Saskatoon and Regina doesn't necessarily mean that all of those people's kids are playing hockey at the same rate as people in, say, Melfort.
Excellent point RinkRat - you could also add the simple fact that not all AA calibre players/parents will even want to play or tryout. For some it will be a travel and cost issue or conflicts with other activities. Just because a player is AA calibre, does not guarantee he/she even wants to play at that level with the commitment that is expected. Some excellent players do not share the same dream as their parents.

As for coaching, there are several non-parent coaches in the GSHL, all of which seem to be doing very well. 1st place in the PW & Bantam divisions belong to non-parent coached teams at this point. Agreed, success in any league starts with developing and retaining coaches. Im not saying parent coaches are not as good, but the GSHL seems to be on to something.

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01-30-2013, 02:20 PM
  #505
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Local Rules and SHA

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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
Puck talk and Super Bowl.... Excellent points and it is nice to see that others believe in coach retention as a building block for success. I further agree that any centre who has a local player rule should carefully re examine this. If you are taking a mediocre local player over a highly skilled rural player you are making a grave mistake. One, you are selecting with an agenda, two, you are not giving the rural kid a chance. I have experienced this in the past. Centre pride must take a back seat to talent in every case. Your idea of AA centres as more of an SHA zone concept is an excellent idea.
I live in a center that only allows 7 "import" players for Bantam AA. Not only that local players have the huge benefit of "local politics" because the Bantam AA coaches have histories with the players having previously coached them. Its a double wammy effect.

We all know that it is impossible to totally eliminate the politics in hockey but Hockey Canada has a Skills Standards and Testing Program. Please SHA, get involved in helping centers setup a standard tryout testing package that will help coaches to evaluate players in an unbiased way. Also SHA needs to encourage all centers to have their area adopt a policy of allowing wide open tryouts so that every SK kid has equal opportunity to play Bantanm AA hockey no matter where they live.

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01-30-2013, 02:29 PM
  #506
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North East Wolfpack

Had the chance to watch this team play this weekend. They are big and good!!Strong dominant forecheck, relentless. Very aggressive on the body. If refereeing lets this team play they will be tough to beat. With the new rules this type of play could get them into penalty trouble. There is no other team I have seen in the SBAAHL that plays this kind of game. Its old time hockey and refreshing to see.

Line of 99 born "Tuffs" and "Bzdel" with 98 "Borstmayer" at center were dominant and highly skilled.

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01-30-2013, 08:25 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbowlfishca View Post
Had the chance to watch this team play this weekend. They are big and good!!Strong dominant forecheck, relentless. Very aggressive on the body. If refereeing lets this team play they will be tough to beat. With the new rules this type of play could get them into penalty trouble. There is no other team I have seen in the SBAAHL that plays this kind of game. Its old time hockey and refreshing to see.

Line of 99 born "Tuffs" and "Bzdel" with 98 "Borstmayer" at center were dominant and highly skilled.
Perhaps WC has their work cut out for themselves after all. Stats certainly seem to indicate things have tightened up. Great parody.

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02-01-2013, 12:56 PM
  #508
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As for coaching, there are several non-parent coaches in the GSHL, all of which seem to be doing very well. 1st place in the PW & Bantam divisions belong to non-parent coached teams at this point. Agreed, success in any league starts with developing and retaining coaches. Im not saying parent coaches are not as good, but the GSHL seems to be on to something.[/QUOTE]

Keep in mind that statistic is a snapshot in time, and should never be the variable by which good coaching is measured. The week before and many more before that both lead teams were parent coached teams. Championship teams last year were parent coached. There are excellent parent coaches in GSHL and measurement of ability if left to one variable , leaves out a host of other competencies.

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Old
02-01-2013, 01:13 PM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendlyfire View Post
Keep in mind that statistic is a snapshot in time, and should never be the variable by which good coaching is measured. The week before and many more before that both lead teams were parent coached teams. Championship teams last year were parent coached. There are excellent parent coaches in GSHL and measurement of ability if left to one variable , leaves out a host of other competencies.
Not true in Bantam.

Your broader point stands - coaching can't be judged based on a single variable. Unfortunately, the variable that is most often used is where did the team finish in the standings. Ideally player development would be placed ahead of wins and losses. As would whether or not the players enjoyed themselves during the year since, in the grand scheme of things, that's literally all that matters.

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02-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Not true in Bantam
Sorry I was not generalizing to all championships. On all the rest I totally agree with you , and maybe one day we will evolve to both player and parent evaluations, and other forms of structured observation.

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Old
02-04-2013, 04:16 PM
  #511
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Ok now I say the north is up for grabs , didnt see it but WC beat NE in another close game. Sounds like the NE team was in total control but could not beat the WC goaltender
Defence for the NE was said to be very strong , but the WC team still managed to chip 2 past the undefeated goalie for NE
anybody see the game ?

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Old
02-05-2013, 07:02 PM
  #512
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ND in playoffs

It would appear from the notice board on the bantam website that ND is allowed into playoffs this year. Not sure how they are deciding what place they are in when they play 32 games to everyone else's 27? Win percentage maybe?

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02-06-2013, 08:31 AM
  #513
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It appears Stoon has voted yes to 4 Bantam teams for next year and will be applying to SHA for provincial league. Reported on Stoon website. Should make things a lot of fun for next year. Can't see SHA rejecting this as there would be 10 teams north and 11 south.

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02-06-2013, 11:34 AM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanJofaDaoust View Post
It appears Stoon has voted yes to 4 Bantam teams for next year and will be applying to SHA for provincial league. Reported on Stoon website. Should make things a lot of fun for next year. Can't see SHA rejecting this as there would be 10 teams north and 11 south.
Its about time ! good thing for Saskatoon , possible that 4 teams would make them very strong based on population as mentioned before , but it is still a good thing . I would say they need to force ND to play a normal schedule like everybody else or let them go and have 10 teams north and 10 teams south

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02-06-2013, 12:14 PM
  #515
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with about 40+ 99 born kids in the system right now that doesn't leave alot of room for 2000 born kids? Wonder why the change of heart about developing kids with only 4 teams? Seems a little bit hypocritical of those who were preaching that developmental system a short year ago.

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02-07-2013, 12:47 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by nah68 View Post
with about 40+ 99 born kids in the system right now that doesn't leave alot of room for 2000 born kids? Wonder why the change of heart about developing kids with only 4 teams? Seems a little bit hypocritical of those who were preaching that developmental system a short year ago.

Good point, however looking at the Alberta and BC powerhouses there are very very few 99s on any of those teams. Also, you may be assuming that the same one's 'preaching' are the current decision makers... possibly calmer heads have prevailed? Who knows?

It looks like Stoon will have at least 8 teams at the Tier 2 level which will be a 'city-wide draft' formed. This seems like an excellent model for development. The top 60 or so kids (4 teams) will play in the Sask AA league - gain exposure, development, high level competition and be largely comprised of 99s.

All of this points to an exciting season next year for a true Saskatchewan AA Bantam league.

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02-09-2013, 01:08 AM
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthook View Post
adjusting the zones or drawing radius would help teams like a humboldt !
With Regina going down to 3 teams and Saskatoon entering with 4 (not confirmed) Melville, Humbolt, Estevan, Weyburn and a few others will not survive in the league. They do not have the population to draw from to make it. Regina with 3 teams based on population means that each team draws from 80,000 people!!! Melville / Humbolt draw from a population of less than 10,000! That doesn't work! Regina should be embarrassed that they they needed to drop down to 3 teams to get to the top of the south. What a great way to develop players! Cut them! What works best for Saskatchewan rather than Northeast, Regina and Saskatoon should be the priority here. Truth is when Saskatchewan goes to AAA midget tournaments, we do very so there is good reason to keep these smaller centers and continue to develop a larger group of players.

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02-09-2013, 09:06 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Willy View Post
With Regina going down to 3 teams and Saskatoon entering with 4 (not confirmed) Melville, Humbolt, Estevan, Weyburn and a few others will not survive in the league. They do not have the population to draw from to make it. Regina with 3 teams based on population means that each team draws from 80,000 people!!! Melville / Humbolt draw from a population of less than 10,000! That doesn't work! Regina should be embarrassed that they they needed to drop down to 3 teams to get to the top of the south. What a great way to develop players! Cut them! What works best for Saskatchewan rather than Northeast, Regina and Saskatoon should be the priority here. Truth is when Saskatchewan goes to AAA midget tournaments, we do very so there is good reason to keep these smaller centers and continue to develop a larger group of players.
Calgary has 4 teams in a city of a million people at the highest bantam level. What does this say about their 'development'? In my opinion it says nothing! They consistently develop many many kids.

However, much like Saskatoon and Regina, base population is a poor indicator for year to year talent. Saskatchewan is a HUGE province and travel and population will always be at issue when deciding how boundaries should exist at the rural/urban level.

Also, the best way to 'develop' players often is to have them play at a lower level - cut them. Much like at the professional or junior levels. Players are 'cut' or 'released' to a lower level in order to develop. Smaller centers always develop kids because there is no evidence that playing a highly competitive level at bantam makes them better hockey players. Coaching, coaching, coaching.

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02-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #519
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[QUOTE=TitanJofaDaoust;59339573]Calgary has 4 teams in a city of a million people at the highest bantam level. What does this say about their 'development'? In my opinion it says nothing! They consistently develop many many kids.

So why didn't they join with 5 teams then? Let me guess, you wanna win? And not just win but be dominant, like I said before joining is great but for the reasons the city is doing it for seems a little off. Oh yeah and if you can't win in a year or 2 with 4, do you then pull the Regina trick and go to 3? My guess would be yes, thats were teams from league should voice there concerns to there league reps and take it to the sbaahl meeting. Yes Saskatoon and Regina have the ability to make the rest of the province revolve around them....Ive posted in the past about players being let in out of area with replies of "its overstated". Lets see if other players left there repective centers for better teams smha would be all over that, just ask mr.pilon. And yes calgary does have 4 teams, but there aaa not aa. And from the past post of Dickie and rinkrat that are sure to be from the city, that exactly what they did not want to happen, but bigger heads prevail in this matter I guess.

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02-09-2013, 01:26 PM
  #520
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like I said before joining is great but for the reasons the city is doing it for seems a little off.

- What are the reasons? They don't play provincials, they play only each other, the rest of Sask. teams beat them?? All seem like good reasons to me. I'm sure glad we joined here in Regina...

So why didn't they join with 5 teams then?
- Stoon got killed with 6 teams in every tourney they entered, the 3 teams in Regina are competitive, the Blues are at the top and the other two are middle of the pack.

Let me guess, you wanna win?
- I would suspect everyone wants to be competitive, you are implying that city teams will dominate - doubtful.

do you then pull the Regina trick and go to 3?
- Urban centers have the luxury of tweaking the number of teams, unfortunately rural do not - nothing more to say.

Here in Regina the Blues are doing very well and from all the games I have gone to the biggest difference is a few kids on that team that are doing very very well. As you know this changes dramatically from year to year. Regina teams will not be as strong next year, Stoon should be stronger than this year. The variance in the smaller communities is magnified. I think a provincial league will be awesome - there will be strong teams, there will be weak teams... pretty obvious.

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02-10-2013, 12:34 PM
  #521
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So why didn't they join with 5 teams then?
- Stoon got killed with 6 teams in every tourney they entered, the 3 teams in Regina are competitive, the Blues are at the top and the other two are middle of the pack.

Both Saskatoon and Regina need to take a hard look at the way there minor hockey systems are run! Both have populations of over 220k and they are only able to be competitive with 3 teams? Saskatoon is 270k and they can't have more than 4? Humboldt, WC, P.A, SV, really only have a population draw of 35 to 40k. City teams have double that, in honesty both centers should have 5 teams and if they can't compete maybe there local minor hockey boards would have to take a look at why? Fix the problem at novice with develpoment and proper coaching.

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02-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willy View Post
With Regina going down to 3 teams and Saskatoon entering with 4 (not confirmed) Melville, Humbolt, Estevan, Weyburn and a few others will not survive in the league. They do not have the population to draw from to make it. Regina with 3 teams based on population means that each team draws from 80,000 people!!! Melville / Humbolt draw from a population of less than 10,000! That doesn't work! Regina should be embarrassed that they they needed to drop down to 3 teams to get to the top of the south. What a great way to develop players! Cut them! What works best for Saskatchewan rather than Northeast, Regina and Saskatoon should be the priority here. Truth is when Saskatchewan goes to AAA midget tournaments, we do very so there is good reason to keep these smaller centers and continue to develop a larger group of players.

I think we can all agree that the SBAAHL has been good for Saskatchewan hockey development overall. I disagree with the point made that creating higher tiered programs does not result in better hockey development. Coaching is important, but development programs must also include tiered systems in order for players of elite skill to be pushed to even higher levels. Without this model or even philosophy kids of high skill get complacent or develop bad habits. They don’t develop great work ethic or the will to compete to win because everything is too easy. Also kids being exposed to having to try out for high level teams teaches life lessons especially if they are cut. They learn that maybe with hard work they can attain goals of making higher level teams. They also learn that life is not always fair. One of the beauties of Canadian hockey mentality is the absence of the politically correct idea that kids should not be exposed to any disappointments in life for fear it will severely affect their self esteem. At least hockey has not gotten sucked into this philosophy and I hope never does, because if we ever get to that point we will no longer succeed on the world stage. Saskatchewan’s current model works and we see it in the number of WHL players per capita in that league, we see it in the quality of the SJHL in comparison to other provinces, and we see it in the quality of our midget AAA hockey league.
SHA must make sure that the SBAAHL is setup fairly for all participants urban and rural. I have no idea what the numbers are for actual hockey player participation in the rural or urban areas but SHA would have those numbers. I suspect the reason Regina was allowed to drop to 3 teams in the SBAAHL was because their overall player participation per capita is lower than the participation per capita in the rural areas. I like the fact their teams are more competitive. It has been great for the league so far. I disagree with posts that it will mean the end of programs such as Estevan, Humbolt, nad Melville . Melville still ahs an opportunity to win provincials given the talent they have on their team this year. Estevan would have been one of the top teams in the league had they not lost 4 top kids to ND. All are very good and 3 made the Sask First Zone 1 team(more on that later). Estevan’s team next year will be middle of the road much like the team this year. But very competitive. If you were to talk to most of the parents they would say every kid improved greatly over the course of this year. Why? Because each kid was pushed to the limit in order to compete at this high level. Also those kids playing at the AA level for the “first “ time showed the “most” improvement. Why, because again they needed to step up their play in order to compete with their peers at this higher level.
All teams want to have the chance to “win” a provincial championship. SHA must be the body in charge of keeping the competitive balance fair based on number of hockey players per capita playing in urban and rural areas. And if necessary tweek the zones or the number of teams in the cities to keep this balance. As of now I have no problem with Regina having 3 teams and Saskatoon 4 cause I am pretty sure the rural teams can compete in this environment. Yorkton will most likely be the team to beat followed by PA and a couple of Saskatoon teams. NE will also be very good again. This is my prediction we will see how it all plays out.

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02-11-2013, 10:15 AM
  #523
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Originally Posted by Superbowlfishca View Post
I suspect the reason Regina was allowed to drop to 3 teams in the SBAAHL was because their overall player participation per capita is lower than the participation per capita in the rural areas.
For me, this is the main issue. We need to start making (and evaluating) these types of decisions based on hockey participation rather than overall population. I suspect SHA has that information at hand, and that's why decisions don't always seem to reflect overall population. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Who knows?

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02-11-2013, 11:10 AM
  #524
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
For me, this is the main issue. We need to start making (and evaluating) these types of decisions based on hockey participation rather than overall population. I suspect SHA has that information at hand, and that's why decisions don't always seem to reflect overall population. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Who knows?
Superbowl and Rinkrat - you're both so right. Many others here assume the decisions are based on overall population, and never consider the actual amount of hockey players. In the cities, sometimes there are more opportunites for kids to play other sports. The good athletes may choose to play soccer, football, baskteball, etc. (Heaven forbid they choose to play baseball in Phoenix during hockey season.) Too much schedule overlap means elite players cannot play those sports and still play tier 1 hockey with saskfirst and aaa spring programs. They have to make a choice.

Everybody will have their opinion on Stoon joining with 4 teams. I'm keeping mine mostly to myself, but I highly doubt they will dominate, and truly hope their decision is the right one for the kids. I've asked before, how do they vote unanimously to NOT join a few years ago, and now this time around do not even involve the parents with a vote? I've talked to many GSHL parents who are not happy with the league and some decisions made this year. Nothing has been confirmed regarding the tier 2 situation. Once that is confirmed, and SBAAHL costs/schedules/travel questions are a little more clear, that's when it may get interesting in Stoon.

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02-11-2013, 01:18 PM
  #525
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Saskatoon Should Do What's Best for Sktn

Great post ! Redtitan.

The problem with an overall parent vote in SKTN on this issue is the parents with no interest in their child playing elite bantam level hockey vote to non entry into SBAAHL. I know lots of parents from Saskatoon, whose kids are playing in the Bantam AA league there, and they all want change. I'd bet if you canvassed just the parents of the kids in that league most would want to join the SBAAHL. This is my guess only. Maybe some people from Saskatoon can enlighten me.
If you where to canvas Regina parents as to the benefit of their child playing in the SBAAHL(irregardless of the travel and cost involved) I'd bet you would would get an overwhelmingly positive response from them as to the positive affect it had on thier childs overall hockey development.

Just sayin...

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