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Old
02-01-2013, 01:21 PM
  #76
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Fire the GM as well, not rebuilding and selling assets when it was obvious they would be horrible was a huge mistake.

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02-01-2013, 01:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
You would have been better off talking about this with a house plant.

There are no moves that Calgary could have made last year or the year before (or even the year before that one) which would have changed their situation overnight.

Rebuilding =//= trading every asset and perpetually finishing in (or close to) last place - all that is accomplished in that scenario is cultivation of a loser mindset. The rebuild that the Flames find themselves embarked on is from within: building their scouting staff, enhancing how the team evaluates and develops prospects (both inside and outside of the Flames organization) and establishing a meritocracy for the fringe and younger players.

Unfortunately, the "FLAMES SHOULD BLOW IT UP LOL" mindset has crept out of HF and into "mainstream" media - with guys like Adam Proteau falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
Iginla and Kipper have, what, 2 or 3 more years of being difference makers in them. Kipper may have already started to hit the slide. What is the sense in keeping them when you are, to be realistic, probably not going to make the playoffs this year, and barring something unexpected(and unlikely) happening this summer in free agency, not going to make them next year either?

The Flames have Baertschi and then...several ordinary prospects. Exactly where is the cavalry coming from? What happens when Iginla\Kipper retire? Who is stepping in?

On the flipside, being a competitively viable team is much more realistic if you flipped Iginla for, to use an example, Beau Bennett or Olli Matta and a first. Kiprusoff to Chicago for Brandon Pirri.

See what I'm saying? I think you're operating under the assumption that you could be a "good" team in the time thats left in the career of Iginla. Even if you could be average enough to make the playoffs, making any kind of meaningful cup run is unlikely, so doesn't it make more sense to suck it up and get some true building blocks so you don't end up mired in a rut like the one you've been in, the last 9 years?

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02-01-2013, 01:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mach1121 View Post
Fire the GM as well, not rebuilding and selling assets when it was obvious they would be horrible was a huge mistake.
I wouldn't fire Feaster. He's drafted smart so far, and has gotten us assets like Hudler, Wideman, and Cervenka.

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02-01-2013, 01:28 PM
  #79
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I'd hate to trade Tanguay. I know he's getting older but he's still a damn good player, especially when he plays for Calgary.

If Calgary trades too many of these vets and replaces them with European prospects, they're going to lose their identity entirely. We still need some old familiar faces. If Iginla was traded, Tanguay could wear the C and I'd be happy with it.

Not to mention if Calgary trade too many vets then they're just gonna suck for a needlessly long time. Five years of waiting in the cellar is NOT an option.

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02-01-2013, 01:28 PM
  #80
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I do think CAL should rebuild but to a total scorch as they could get a lot of 1st round picks this year. They will most likely be 15 and later but it is nice and deep.
I understand people not wanting to trade Glencross and Gio but they are up there in age and by the time the team is ready to contend they will be useless.
If you eat some cap hit then you can get more for players:
Cammi eat half his cap hit; he would get a 1st round pick;
JBo eat half his cap hit and he would get you a 1st and a prospect
Kipper eat half his cap, 1st, 2nd prospect
Iggy 1st and prospect
Gio 1st and prospect
Glencross 1st and 2nd.
That is alot to get rid of but look at all the draft picks and prospects you get, your rebuild will be a lot quicker than it was in EDM.

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02-01-2013, 01:31 PM
  #81
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So we trade all our roster players for prospects/picks and ice who again?

I like some of these trades but ideally we need to be getting back some kind of roster players to fill the void.

Currently we could dump 2 D and 3 F and still ice a full team.

Move Gio and Butler

Move Iginla, Tangs and Cammi.

Move Kipper for picks/prospects.

Rebuild over, Flames get Mackinnon or Jones (hell even Barkov, Drouin or Monohan would be good). Lots of prospects in the system, young players coming up.


I dont see why management cant just pull this trigger already.

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02-01-2013, 01:33 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
I wouldn't fire Feaster. He's drafted smart so far, and has gotten us assets like Hudler, Wideman, and Cervenka.
Agree. Im not a Feaster hater at all. We'll see what happens with Cervenka. Hudler is streaky but hell, he's a 2pt a game player right now.... and Wideman looks pretty good. That's the thing with the Flames. I think we'd all agree they have some good pieces who are actually in (or about to hit) their prime, coupled with older guys they can move for assets. They're in a great position even though it might be a position of the unknown...

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02-01-2013, 01:33 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mach1121 View Post
Fire the GM as well, not rebuilding and selling assets when it was obvious they would be horrible was a huge mistake.
It's not Feaster's fault we're in this mess. He has to do what ownership tells him to do.

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02-01-2013, 01:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Iginla and Kipper have, what, 2 or 3 more years of being difference makers in them. Kipper may have already started to hit the slide. What is the sense in keeping them when you are, to be realistic, probably not going to make the playoffs this year, and barring something unexpected(and unlikely) happening this summer in free agency, not going to make them next year either?

The Flames have Baertschi and then...several ordinary prospects. Exactly where is the cavalry coming from? What happens when Iginla\Kipper retire? Who is stepping in?

On the flipside, being a competitively viable team is much more realistic if you flipped Iginla for, to use an example, Beau Bennett or Olli Matta and a first. Kiprusoff to Chicago for Brandon Pirri.

See what I'm saying? I think you're operating under the assumption that you could be a "good" team in the time thats left in the career of Iginla. Even if you could be average enough to make the playoffs, making any kind of meaningful cup run is unlikely, so doesn't it make more sense to suck it up and get some true building blocks so you don't end up mired in a rut like the one you've been in, the last 9 years?
Exactly. You don't have to trade away everyone over 25, but you need to make a realistic assessment of 1) when is the team likely to contend; and 2) who will still be around at that time. The rest should be moved, if the right deal is there, for players that will help when the team is ready to contend.

Beefing up your scouting and development and rebuilding through the draft is great, but it is a long-term solution. In the short-term, you have a mediocre team. Your short-term assets aren't going to be of value when the long-term plan begins to pay dividends.

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02-01-2013, 01:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Iginla and Kipper have, what, 2 or 3 more years of being difference makers in them. Kipper may have already started to hit the slide. What is the sense in keeping them when you are, to be realistic, probably not going to make the playoffs this year, and barring something unexpected(and unlikely) happening this summer in free agency, not going to make them next year either?

The Flames have Baertschi and then...several ordinary prospects. Exactly where is the cavalry coming from? What happens when Iginla\Kipper retire? Who is stepping in?

On the flipside, being a competitively viable team is much more realistic if you flipped Iginla for, to use an example, Beau Bennett or Olli Matta and a first. Kiprusoff to Chicago for Brandon Pirri.

See what I'm saying? I think you're operating under the assumption that you could be a "good" team in the time thats left in the career of Iginla. Even if you could be average enough to make the playoffs, making any kind of meaningful cup run is unlikely, so doesn't it make more sense to suck it up and get some true building blocks so you don't end up mired in a rut like the one you've been in, the last 9 years?
Gimme a break with this Beau Bennett, Olli Maatta crap. You've been listening to Pittsburgh overhype their prospects for too long. Calgary doesn't want or need either of those guys.

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02-01-2013, 01:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Gimme a break with this Beau Bennett, Olli Maatta crap. You've been listening to Pittsburgh overhype their prospects for too long. Calgary doesn't want or need either of those guys.
Right, I guess we're looking at more of the "Mark Jankowski\Leland Irving" level prospect?

What are you expecting, if you're trading Iginla? James Neal? Kris Letang?

That's not going to happen, you know...

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02-01-2013, 01:39 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Right, I guess we're looking at more of the "Mark Jankowski\Leland Irving" level prospect?

What are you expecting, if you're trading Iginla? James Neal? Kris Letang?

That's not going to happen, you know...
Maybe you and Adam Proteau can sit down and discuss how to fix the Flames.

lol.

I'll call up Eklund and drum up some ideas on the trades.

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02-01-2013, 01:39 PM
  #88
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Gimme a break with this Beau Bennett, Olli Maatta crap. You've been listening to Pittsburgh overhype their prospects for too long. Calgary doesn't want or need either of those guys.
I was a huge Bennett fan throughout midgets but his injuries, some of the decisions he made and his lack of overall size changed my opinion on him in recent years. That said, he's starting to prove me wrong and he's been pretty good at Wilkes Barre.

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02-01-2013, 01:40 PM
  #89
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So we trade all our roster players for prospects/picks and ice who again?

I like some of these trades but ideally we need to be getting back some kind of roster players to fill the void.

Currently we could dump 2 D and 3 F and still ice a full team.

Move Gio and Butler

Move Iginla, Tangs and Cammi.

Move Kipper for picks/prospects.

Rebuild over, Flames get Mackinnon or Jones (hell even Barkov, Drouin or Monohan would be good). Lots of prospects in the system, young players coming up.


I dont see why management cant just pull this trigger already.
Who would play goalie? If Irving or Ramo can't hack it, then Calgary would not be getting outta the basement.

It's too bad Ramo couldn't come over this year. Calgary would know what they had in him before deciding what to do with Kipper. But as it stands now, there's too much uncertainty with all of Calgary's goalies.

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02-01-2013, 01:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Who would play goalie? If Irving or Ramo can't hack it, then Calgary would not be getting outta the basement.

It's too bad Ramo couldn't come over this year. Calgary would know what they had in him before deciding what to do with Kipper. But as it stands now, there's too much uncertainty with all of Calgary's goalies.
For the rest of this year, you can pick up a backup to get you through the year. For next year, there will be a bunch of FAs (Backstrom, Nabokov, Smith, Howard). If you can't sign them, sign a journeyman to try and get by.

But the fact is, even if you don't move Kiprussof now, you will need a long-term goalie solution within a couple of years.

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02-01-2013, 01:47 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Iginla and Kipper have, what, 2 or 3 more years of being difference makers in them. Kipper may have already started to hit the slide. What is the sense in keeping them when you are, to be realistic, probably not going to make the playoffs this year, and barring something unexpected(and unlikely) happening this summer in free agency, not going to make them next year either?
Actually, I'm advocating trading one or both this year, if the return is right. Iginla could even come back to the Flames next fall. Thing is he's the face of the franchise and is worth as much to the team as a fixture in the community (maybe even more) than as a player on the ice, especially now. Maybe if he wasn't so nice, maybe if he was a jerk, that would be different. Still, nobody in these parts would begrudge him if he desires to try and win a cup somewhere else - and part of that "return" the Flames may seek is not roster related - but rather community goodwill in trading him to a team with a chance to win the Cup.

In prior years, trading either of them would have done nothing except for becoming more of a joke team, and treading water without the possibility of making the playoffs. For what it's worth, having the chance at the playoffs does a lot for a team's mindset then having no chance - and losing that starts to reflect on the team's culture after a while and affects the team mentally going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
The Flames have Baertschi and then...several ordinary prospects. Exactly where is the cavalry coming from? What happens when Iginla\Kipper retire? Who is stepping in?
Honestly, this bleak outlook is a significant improvement over the last five years, when the team's top prospect was Eric Nystrom. The Flames have put much more emphasis in drafting players with high hockey IQ, and skill instead of size. As for who is stepping in, you need to look at the high risk/reward picks they've made recently - guys like Gaudreau and Jankowski are complete win/lose prospects - I'd even go as far as saying Gaudreau is a potential star in this league. Max Reinhart is looking better and better as he adjusts to play at the professional level. Even some of the head scratcher trades made by Feaster (acquiring seemingly random pieces like Karri Ramo or Paul Byron)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
On the flipside, being a competitively viable team is much more realistic if you flipped Iginla for, to use an example, Beau Bennett or Olli Matta and a first. Kiprusoff to Chicago for Brandon Pirri.
As mentioned, I think you see Iginla traded by the deadline, and maybe sooner if the Flames keep losing. If the team was hell bent on signing him, they'd have made him an extension offer last summer. They're not - which tells me they're taking a wait & see approach. Kipper will be the consolation prize (for lack of a better term) for a team that's trying to get Luongo and fails, or needs a stop gap in goal for a year. I see Chicago as being a potential destination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
See what I'm saying? I think you're operating under the assumption that you could be a "good" team in the time thats left in the career of Iginla. Even if you could be average enough to make the playoffs, making any kind of meaningful cup run is unlikely, so doesn't it make more sense to suck it up and get some true building blocks so you don't end up mired in a rut like the one you've been in, the last 9 years?
The thing is, the Flames have been acquiring those building blocks, and getting better at it. They haven't needed to finish last. They haven't needed to sell off major pieces. This year, I can point to guys like Brodie, Baertschi, Gaudreau, Ramo, and say "here are our building blocks for the future". I couldn't have said that five years ago - when the main building blocks were Eric Nystrom, Kris Chuko, and Matt Pelech. This method of rebuilding isn't going to be as "fast" as what the Oilers experienced. Or the Hawks. Or even the Penguins - even if there was help from the lockout draft lottery. It will be a much slower process here, but at the same time the team can remain competitive and winning some games. It also allows a player who's been with the team for sixteen years to remain with them, and with the community.

Yes, hockey is a business, but some things have intrinsic value - the Flames have determined these values as staying competitive in this league, and retaining the face of the franchise and the community. More importantly the business must cater to its customers - and the customers also value these things.

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02-01-2013, 01:49 PM
  #92
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Maybe you and Adam Proteau can sit down and discuss how to fix the Flames.

lol.

I'll call up Eklund and drum up some ideas on the trades.
Or, I could start hanging over at the Flames board, where the idea is that Calgary is "close" to being some sort of contender, and that staying the course is the best plan?

What do I care? I'm not a fan, and as a fan of a Western Conference team, it actually benefits me if you continue to toil in mediocrity.

So I guess...twiddle your thumbs until Feaster re-acquires David Moss for another go-round, in typical Calgary fashion.

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02-01-2013, 01:50 PM
  #93
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For the rest of this year, you can pick up a backup to get you through the year. For next year, there will be a bunch of FAs (Backstrom, Nabokov, Smith, Howard). If you can't sign them, sign a journeyman to try and get by.

But the fact is, even if you don't move Kiprussof now, you will need a long-term goalie solution within a couple of years.
We have Irving behind Kipper plus two of the best ahl goalies which we could sign and bring up we don't need another goalies espically if we are just trying to "get through" this year.

As for long term goalie solution we have several good goalie prospects(Brossiot,Gillies,Ortio,rights to Ramo)

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02-01-2013, 01:51 PM
  #94
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The only untouchables in my opinion are anyone under 25 years of age, Gio and Glencross.

It is finally time to blow this thing up and they can all go - Iggy, Mikka, JBo, Cammy, Tanguay etc. All of them. Even all the new guys to - Wideman & Hudler. The Flames are already tanking - might as well do it right and maximize the future.

Flames would likely want draft picks and prospects. They would also likely be willing to take on salary if need be to make the deal happen.
It is PAST time to blow thus thing up. Seriously past time. I have in idea what the flames mngmt has been thinking.

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02-01-2013, 01:54 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Or, I could start hanging over at the Flames board, where the idea is that Calgary is "close" to being some sort of contender, and that staying the course is the best plan?

What do I care? I'm not a fan, and as a fan of a Western Conference team, it actually benefits me if you continue to toil in mediocrity.

So I guess...twiddle your thumbs until Feaster re-acquires David Moss for another go-round, in typical Calgary fashion.
Well, why don't you go ask Adam Proteau what we should do and I can email Feaster?

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02-01-2013, 01:54 PM
  #96
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Or, I could start hanging over at the Flames board, where the idea is that Calgary is "close" to being some sort of contender, and that staying the course is the best plan?
You should head over to the Flames board some time soon, it's basically hell in there.

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02-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #97
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Or, I could start hanging over at the Flames board, where the idea is that Calgary is "close" to being some sort of contender, and that staying the course is the best plan?

What do I care? I'm not a fan, and as a fan of a Western Conference team, it actually benefits me if you continue to toil in mediocrity.

So I guess...twiddle your thumbs until Feaster re-acquires David Moss for another go-round, in typical Calgary fashion.
WTF? Contender? Really?



I recommend heading over for a visit to educate yourself.

I'm disappointed that I wasted words on you.

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02-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #98
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Or, I could start hanging over at the Flames board, where the idea is that Calgary is "close" to being some sort of contender, and that staying the course is the best plan?
You should visit us more often.

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02-01-2013, 01:58 PM
  #99
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WTF? Contender? Really?



I recommend heading over for a visit to educate yourself.

I'm disappointed that I wasted words on you.
I'm going on what I'm seeing in this thread, where the prevailing idea seems to be "we need to hang on to our aging stars, because we won't be good, otherwise."

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02-01-2013, 02:01 PM
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I'm going on what I'm seeing in this thread, where the prevailing idea seems to be "we need to hang on to our aging stars, because we won't be good, otherwise."
You found a time machine to 2008 we have several threads about moving a majority of the vets.

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