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2013 Ducks toughness thread (with updates)

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Old
01-31-2013, 08:48 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
barring no trades

KP/Getz/Perry
Ryan/?/Selanne
Beleskey/Koivu/Winnik
Maroon/Rackell/Staubitz or PL3

This kid line 4th line of undersized players is a disaster waiting to happen and Cogliano/Bonino are both expensive useless holes
No matter all the roll 4th line talk they still get limited minutes so might as well be banging some bodies
Bonino makes 700K......

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Old
01-31-2013, 09:01 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
barring no trades

KP/Getz/Perry
Ryan/?/Selanne
Beleskey/Koivu/Winnik
Maroon/Rackell/Staubitz or PL3

This kid line 4th line of undersized players is a disaster waiting to happen and Cogliano/Bonino are both expensive useless holes
No matter all the roll 4th line talk they still get limited minutes so might as well be banging some bodies
Cogliano has been fine this year.

Beleskey is not a 3rd line player

Agreed that Bonino is useless where is though. I personally think he should be 4th line center and Rakkel should go back to junior.

I also agree that having 3 kids on the 4th line is a mistake.

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01-31-2013, 09:05 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
barring no trades

KP/Getz/Perry
Ryan/?/Selanne
Beleskey/Koivu/Winnik
Maroon/Rackell/Staubitz or PL3

This kid line 4th line of undersized players is a disaster waiting to happen and Cogliano/Bonino are both expensive useless holes
No matter all the roll 4th line talk they still get limited minutes so might as well be banging some bodies
This would be the worst lineup we could possibly ice

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01-31-2013, 11:26 PM
  #104
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Stephens:

Quote:
Ducks have had a league-low 15 power plays. Getzlaf: "We haven't had a lot of opportunities. Some teams have."By the way, Getzlaf didn't go any further when I asked if they should have had more. "Nope. I've been here for eight years. I've learned."
I feel you Getzy.
Ok, some games have went our way, but the ones i`ve seen against us - just ridiculous. Nothing like i`ve seen have gone for us

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02-01-2013, 02:59 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
This would be the worst lineup we could possibly ice
You would say that about any lineup that includes an enforcer
Typical hfboards why don't we just ice a team of all prospects?

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02-01-2013, 03:00 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
You would say that about any lineup that includes an enforcer
Typical hfboards why don't we just ice a team of all prospects?
We pretty much are doing that...and guess what...we're 3-1-1!

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02-01-2013, 03:01 AM
  #107
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Just an interesting stat the Red Wings and Montreal both have more fights than Anaheim that says it all ugh

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02-01-2013, 03:04 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
We pretty much are doing that...and guess what...we're 3-1-1!
Yeah thats the reason the great 4th line you think if Staubitz played more the record would be any different? Were 1-0 with him in
Also the team has lost 2 of its last 3 games

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02-01-2013, 04:51 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
You would say that about any lineup that includes an enforcer
Typical hfboards why don't we just ice a team of all prospects?
Maroon has done nothing yet to be handed a spot in the NHL. In case of injuries, sure, call him up. But there's a reason he only has two games in the NHL despite having been under contract with Anaheim and Philly for a numbers of years while also having been productive in the AHL.

Maroon and Staubitz couldn't do what Brad May and Shawn Thornton did, and defenitely not what Moen, Pahlsson or Niedermayer did.

I have nothing against adding size or grit, but you can't just bring in anyone. If you want replacements for physical players on the 07 cup winning team, you gotta look elsewhere. We don't have them in the Ducks system...

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02-01-2013, 06:11 AM
  #110
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A bit OT but does anyone else enjoy Dirk's posts as much as I do? They are polarized to the point of amazing.

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Old
02-01-2013, 06:11 AM
  #111
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I'm worried about our toughness level at this stage. I'm Ok with giving young guys a chance to prove themselves (Etem, Rakkell and etc), but when we will play against other teams and they have guys like Boll, Dorsett and Konopka runing around - look out! I hope BB dont want Perry and Getzlaf to handle them.

And as the season goes on, games will just get heated and heated....

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02-01-2013, 06:32 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
I'm worried about our toughness level at this stage. I'm Ok with giving young guys a chance to prove themselves (Etem, Rakkell and etc), but when we will play against other teams and they have guys like Boll, Dorsett and Konopka runing around - look out! I hope BB dont want Perry and Getzlaf to handle them.

And as the season goes on, games will just get heated and heated....
I think it's fair to be somewhat worried about a lack of toughness. However, in today's game it's a lot more difficult to impose a tough style on your opponent. You need a combination of toughness and skill to make that work, and that's a difficult combination to get your hands on often enough to make it a team's blueprint. Nobody hates playing a tough game, there's a reason why basically everyone refers to the tough teams playing "the right way", it simply has become a lot more difficult to do, because you can't do it the way it used to be possible. You can't throw guys like Beleskey, Staubitz, PL3 or even better versions of those guys together and hope that you're a tougher and better team than before. It's not such a linear equasion any more.

For now, we have yet to really face the problems that can come along with a lack of toughness, like what you describe.

But I really couldn't care less how many fights we see. With how many of them have been staged, or idiotic retaliations, that has very little to do with toughness.


In any way, I believe I may have come to peace with the realization that I'll never understand how someone sporting a Bob Marley avatar can be so uneasy about being perceived as tough.

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Old
02-01-2013, 09:23 AM
  #113
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Im sorry Dirk but I have to disagree. Staubitz and PL3 are pretty bad and Maroon can hardly skate backwards! I would love to add some toughness because it is fun to watch guys pummel each other but you need a tough guy that, oh I dont know, can actually play hockey.

If that 4th line ever got caught out there against a good 1st or 2nd line, they would not be able to keep up.

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02-01-2013, 10:07 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KelVarnsen View Post
Im sorry Dirk but I have to disagree. Staubitz and PL3 are pretty bad and Maroon can hardly skate backwards! I would love to add some toughness because it is fun to watch guys pummel each other but you need a tough guy that, oh I dont know, can actually play hockey.

If that 4th line ever got caught out there against a good 1st or 2nd line, they would not be able to keep up.
Not that I agree entirely with Dirk's premise, but I'll point out that that's exactly what's been happening with most of our "4th line that can play" attempts so far this season. That's what happens with 4th lines, however you compose them. If they're out there more than infrequently against the other team's best, that's a coaching error. This is why you want your coach to engage in at least some line matching.

IMO 4th lines are best when they have defined roles and have the personnel to accomplish those roles. And I think it can work just as well whether it's an energy line, a goon line, or a line full of kids that might one day be top 6 players. You assign them a role, match the personnel to the role, and use them for what they're for.

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02-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #115
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We shoulda went after tootoo like i said all along, hell fight milan lucic or john scott or anyone that is willing. And hes a decent hockey player.

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02-01-2013, 10:26 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Getz2perry View Post
We shoulda went after tootoo like i said all along, hell fight milan lucic or john scott or anyone that is willing. And hes a decent hockey player.
Do you relize how many random penalties Tootoo would get on the Ducks? Like 4 minors a game?

That's the reason we had to deal Pronger. Being Pronger is a strike against you, but then being on the Ducks is the knockout punch. Poor guy couldn't touch another player without a league uproar about how the hit was suspension worthy or how dirty he is.

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02-01-2013, 10:31 AM
  #117
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Do you relize how many random penalties Tootoo would get on the Ducks? Like 4 minors a game?

That's the reason we had to deal Pronger. Being Pronger is a strike against you, but then being on the Ducks is the knockout punch. Poor guy couldn't touch another player without a league uproar about how the hit was suspension worthy or how dirty he is.
I dont think tootoo is any worse off then perry lol

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02-01-2013, 10:46 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
Not that I agree entirely with Dirk's premise, but I'll point out that that's exactly what's been happening with most of our "4th line that can play" attempts so far this season. That's what happens with 4th lines, however you compose them. If they're out there more than infrequently against the other team's best, that's a coaching error. This is why you want your coach to engage in at least some line matching.

IMO 4th lines are best when they have defined roles and have the personnel to accomplish those roles. And I think it can work just as well whether it's an energy line, a goon line, or a line full of kids that might one day be top 6 players. You assign them a role, match the personnel to the role, and use them for what they're for.
I understand that but those guys Dirk mentioned are terrible skaters. They probably could not even skate quick enough to even hit anyone. Plus Staubitz and PL3 are god awful hockey players. Maroon at least can play a little but the other two are terrible. Maroon's problem is his lack of skating ability. I would rather put the kids out there because at least they try and can keep up with NHL hockey.

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:59 AM
  #119
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Our last game against the Sharks is exactly how this team needs to play night and night out with the exception of actually capitalizing on the power play which has nothing to do with "toughness." The way this team is built and coached relies on them to play with speed and pressure.

What is "toughness" anyway? What's so tough about punching someone in the face? Is that any tougher than scoring a goal? Last time I checked it's the latter that actually counts on the score board. Okay, okay so what about just overall hitting and agitating? You mean the way we played for years and were constantly in the penalty box? Yeah that really helped us win hockey games.

I love fighting and physical play as much as the next guy but I like watching my team score goals and win even more. It's nice to have a guy or two on the team that can mix it up and actually contribute to the team but there are so few of them in the league. The Shawn Thornton's of the league are rare and it sucks that we lost him (whom Burke offered to a new contract to but wanted to go to Boston instead by the way). I love and miss George but he was an almost completely ineffective player the last two years.

Our fourth line showed a lot of promise the last game because they were skating. Skating hard backs guys off and creates space. That was key to us outworking San Jose, we were out skating them up and down the lineup. That's why the Koivu line is clicking so well. We can't have guys like Staubitz, Maroon, or (oh god) Leblond in the lineup because my wife can skate faster than them. When an opponent needs a pop on the chin guys like Belesky or Sbisa have been pretty effective in stepping up. Most teams don't have goons and the ones that do only dress them when the other team has one too. We don't need them, clearly.

But Dirk I have to ask, would you prefer this team to be lousy but "tough" and fighting all the time as opposed to a winning team like plays like we do now? Because a couple of your statements have suggested as such.

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02-01-2013, 01:43 PM
  #120
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relying on Sbisa and Beleskey to pop someone on the chin...

Although, I will say... I have been impressed with Beleskey's contributions lately... and he held his own against VAN the other night. But ultimately, he's not a guy I feel comfortable being an enforcer role on this team.

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02-01-2013, 01:49 PM
  #121
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Maroon has done nothing yet to be handed a spot in the NHL. In case of injuries, sure, call him up. But there's a reason he only has two games in the NHL despite having been under contract with Anaheim and Philly for a numbers of years while also having been productive in the AHL.

Maroon and Staubitz couldn't do what Brad May and Shawn Thornton did, and defenitely not what Moen, Pahlsson or Niedermayer did.

I have nothing against adding size or grit, but you can't just bring in anyone. If you want replacements for physical players on the 07 cup winning team, you gotta look elsewhere. We don't have them in the Ducks system...
what is he supposed to do exactly. hes proven himself in the AHL. but he never gets to try out for the ducks in a game..

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02-01-2013, 02:23 PM
  #122
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I think it's fair to be somewhat worried about a lack of toughness. However, in today's game it's a lot more difficult to impose a tough style on your opponent. You need a combination of toughness and skill to make that work, and that's a difficult combination to get your hands on often enough to make it a team's blueprint. Nobody hates playing a tough game, there's a reason why basically everyone refers to the tough teams playing "the right way", it simply has become a lot more difficult to do, because you can't do it the way it used to be possible. You can't throw guys like Beleskey, Staubitz, PL3 or even better versions of those guys together and hope that you're a tougher and better team than before. It's not such a linear equasion any more.

For now, we have yet to really face the problems that can come along with a lack of toughness, like what you describe.

But I really couldn't care less how many fights we see. With how many of them have been staged, or idiotic retaliations, that has very little to do with toughness.


In any way, I believe I may have come to peace with the realization that I'll never understand how someone sporting a Bob Marley avatar can be so uneasy about being perceived as tough.
I also dont care about fight totals.... BUT I care for our young, talanted players when somebody will run them over. They are not ready to 100% stand up for themselves at NHL level. We need a guy who can police the game and watch their back a little, and Nooo....Belesky is all heart, but not enough.

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02-01-2013, 02:35 PM
  #123
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we currently 25th in the NHL total hits with 117 same total as the Wild, the Flames last with 82 and Rangers lead the league with 222

pacific
PHOENIX 201
LA 183
SJ 145
Dallas 137

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02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by DuckshaveaRPG View Post
we currently 25th in the NHL total hits with 117 same total as the Wild, the Flames last with 82 and Rangers lead the league with 222

pacific
PHOENIX 201
LA 183
SJ 145
Dallas 137
how'd you find this out? it should be noted though that we've only played 5 games.. where do we rank in hits per game

edit: just by pro-rating our hits. we'd be at 164 had we played 7 games. now I dont know where that ranks but i'd assume thats around the middle tier? (10-20)? or are we still bottom 1/3 lol

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02-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #125
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But Dirk I have to ask, would you prefer this team to be lousy but "tough" and fighting all the time as opposed to a winning team like plays like we do now? Because a couple of your statements have suggested as such.
I would assume the other side believes that toughening up would lead to more winning.

It's almost like arguing religion. I think the two sides have some core beliefs that there's two mutually exclusive team set-ups, and that one leads to wins while the other leads to losses.

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