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Phil Kessel Discussion Thread. (no goals as of Feb 4, 2013)

View Poll Results: kessel goals, 15 over or under, this year
over 86 51.50%
under 81 48.50%
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Old
02-01-2013, 02:42 PM
  #126
topched
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I will try and put this in a real life context since a lot of you have a difficult time separating your favorite players success from that of your favorite teams:

Right now Phil Kessel is a $25,000 espresso machine in a coffee shop that is bleeding money and is struggling to pay its bills. It also appears to be broken at the moment and will require additional resources to fix it ... When you first bought it you thought the coffee shop would be a lot busier. Its now been 4 years and its still not doing very well. What do you do?

The argument a lot of you are trying to suggest is that you are afraid customers will no longer buy ANY coffee AT ALL from you unless you have this amazing machine. But in the 'rational' world the correct thing to do for the future success of your business would be to trade that machine in - for a cheaper but still productive one - and maybe use the rest of funds to help pay off your line of credit/buy supplies and pay your employees. Maybe it makes more sense to spend that money on advertising your business - to get traffic though the doors - then when you get back in the red it might be worth looking into investing an expensive machine again.

Right now with Phil Kessel this team isn't bankrupt - but we have a lot of problems that need to be addressed ... the only cure many of you have is crossing your fingers and hoping that: A) A quality UFA will join - B) some mid-teir prospects will over-achieve or C) you're willing to trade off assets to keep Phil Kessel in the loop.

My solution to our:

Questionable Goaltending
Lack of Size/Grit upfront

Would be to trade Phil Kessel for a 1G + PWF with 25 goal capabilites. if we are fortunate enough to draft high again in this upcoming draft we look for our !C - with the horses we currently have in stable it shouldn't take a lot to fill out the lineup so that we can begin competiting on a consistent basis.


That's the worst analogy I've ever read on these boards... and thats saying something.

Phil Kessel is an offensive dynamo, a top 10 offensive talent in the league, and he's 25 to boot, just entering the prime of his career. Players like him don't grow on trees and they aren't easy to replace.

I swear... 7 games of goal-less hockey and the sky is falling.

Really, thanks though.... I'm gonna go get myself a cup of coffee and watch the highlight reel of Kessel's 37 goals last year.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:46 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I will try and put this in a real life context since a lot of you have a difficult time separating your favorite players success from that of your favorite teams:

Right now Phil Kessel is a $25,000 espresso machine in a coffee shop that is bleeding money and is struggling to pay its bills. It also appears to be broken at the moment and will require additional resources to fix it ... When you first bought it you thought the coffee shop would be a lot busier. Its now been 4 years and its still not doing very well. What do you do?

The argument a lot of you are trying to suggest is that you are afraid customers will no longer buy ANY coffee AT ALL from you unless you have this amazing machine. But in the 'rational' world the correct thing to do for the future success of your business would be to trade that machine in - for a cheaper but still productive one - and maybe use the rest of funds to help pay off your line of credit/buy supplies and pay your employees. Maybe it makes more sense to spend that money on advertising your business - to get traffic though the doors - then when you get back in the red it might be worth looking into investing an expensive machine again.

Right now with Phil Kessel this team isn't bankrupt - but we have a lot of problems that need to be addressed ... the only cure many of you have is crossing your fingers and hoping that: A) A quality UFA will join - B) some mid-teir prospects will over-achieve or C) you're willing to trade off assets to keep Phil Kessel in the loop.

My solution to our:

Questionable Goaltending
Lack of Size/Grit upfront

Would be to trade Phil Kessel for a 1G + PWF with 25 goal capabilites. if we are fortunate enough to draft high again in this upcoming draft we look for our !C - with the horses we currently have in stable it shouldn't take a lot to fill out the lineup so that we can begin competiting on a consistent basis.
Good post. That's fair.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:52 PM
  #128
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So the Leafs are supposed to trade Kessel in order to save some money, so they can pay employees and perhaps advertise more?

Gotcha.

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02-01-2013, 02:53 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I will try and put this in a real life context since a lot of you have a difficult time separating your favorite players success from that of your favorite teams:

Right now Phil Kessel is a $25,000 espresso machine in a coffee shop that is bleeding money and is struggling to pay its bills. It also appears to be broken at the moment and will require additional resources to fix it ... When you first bought it you thought the coffee shop would be a lot busier. Its now been 4 years and its still not doing very well. What do you do?

The argument a lot of you are trying to suggest is that you are afraid customers will no longer buy ANY coffee AT ALL from you unless you have this amazing machine. But in the 'rational' world the correct thing to do for the future success of your business would be to trade that machine in - for a cheaper but still productive one - and maybe use the rest of funds to help pay off your line of credit/buy supplies and pay your employees. Maybe it makes more sense to spend that money on advertising your business - to get traffic though the doors - then when you get back in the red it might be worth looking into investing an expensive machine again.

Right now with Phil Kessel this team isn't bankrupt - but we have a lot of problems that need to be addressed ... the only cure many of you have is crossing your fingers and hoping that: A) A quality UFA will join - B) some mid-teir prospects will over-achieve or C) you're willing to trade off assets to keep Phil Kessel in the loop.

My solution to our:

Questionable Goaltending
Lack of Size/Grit upfront

Would be to trade Phil Kessel for a 1G + PWF with 25 goal capabilites. if we are fortunate enough to draft high again in this upcoming draft we look for our !C - with the horses we currently have in stable it shouldn't take a lot to fill out the lineup so that we can begin competiting on a consistent basis.
Very well put. You managed to highlight the talents of our star but at the same time show that right now that talent is wasted and other stuff is more important to have success in the future.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
  #130
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Go leafs go

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:54 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
So the Leafs are supposed to trade Kessel in order to save some money, so they can pay employees and perhaps advertise more?

Gotcha.
It was an analogy, you are not supposed to take it literally.

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02-01-2013, 02:55 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Very well put. You managed to highlight the talents of our star but at the same time show that right now that talent is wasted and other stuff is more important to have success in the future.
All of this analogy would hold true if Kessel was 30 years or older, and I would agree.

As a 25 year old, he fits in perfectly with the direction this team is going. To trade him to fill other holes on the team would only open up another hole to be filled.

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02-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
So before the argument Kessel (Burke Supporters) would use was "Look at Kessels goals man" Look at his stats - he's Top6 scoring in NHL - he's like the best thing ever" Forget the teams results - forget the standings - it was all about Phils stats.

Now its ... "uhh look at him do the small things that are EXPECTED FROM EVERY PLAYER IN THE ****ING NHL"

I'm done talking about this with fanboys - you can all find me and apologize for your ignorance in a few weeks/months when Phil is traded - for significant assets that will help this team win.
It's kind of pointless to say this but...do you even watch the Leafs games? Kessel has been a consistent threat in the offensive zone and has been getting praise from Carlyle.

"I think the last two games from Phill Kessel played, he's skated and been more active on the ice. Been more involved in the game from an energy stand point, from a system stand point. Leading with his stick, putting pressure on the opposition, cutting the ice in half. All those things that we're asking and you know the goals are gonna come."

"He's got to continue to keep working and not get down, every goal scorer gets frustrated. Our job is to maintain a positive attitude."

Also why do you keep bringing up the team standings and team results when Hockey is a team game and Kessel is only one player on one line on this team.

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02-01-2013, 03:03 PM
  #134
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Kessel is playing very well, creating chances and will score eventually. There is a clear body of work that supports this, and he is one of the best goal scorers in the NHL. Not sure why all the chicken little comments. Not a bad thing when your team is wining games, and your best goal scorer is in a slump.

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02-01-2013, 03:09 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I will try and put this in a real life context since a lot of you have a difficult time separating your favorite players success from that of your favorite teams:

Right now Phil Kessel is a $25,000 espresso machine in a coffee shop that is bleeding money and is struggling to pay its bills. It also appears to be broken at the moment and will require additional resources to fix it ... When you first bought it you thought the coffee shop would be a lot busier. Its now been 4 years and its still not doing very well. What do you do?

The argument a lot of you are trying to suggest is that you are afraid customers will no longer buy ANY coffee AT ALL from you unless you have this amazing machine. But in the 'rational' world the correct thing to do for the future success of your business would be to trade that machine in - for a cheaper but still productive one - and maybe use the rest of funds to help pay off your line of credit/buy supplies and pay your employees. Maybe it makes more sense to spend that money on advertising your business - to get traffic though the doors - then when you get back in the red it might be worth looking into investing an expensive machine again.

Right now with Phil Kessel this team isn't bankrupt - but we have a lot of problems that need to be addressed ... the only cure many of you have is crossing your fingers and hoping that: A) A quality UFA will join - B) some mid-teir prospects will over-achieve or C) you're willing to trade off assets to keep Phil Kessel in the loop.

My solution to our:

Questionable Goaltending
Lack of Size/Grit upfront

Would be to trade Phil Kessel for a 1G + PWF with 25 goal capabilites. if we are fortunate enough to draft high again in this upcoming draft we look for our !C - with the horses we currently have in stable it shouldn't take a lot to fill out the lineup so that we can begin competiting on a consistent basis.
Here's another good analogy:

He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it.

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02-01-2013, 03:28 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
All of this analogy would hold true if Kessel was 30 years or older, and I would agree.

As a 25 year old, he fits in perfectly with the direction this team is going. To trade him to fill other holes on the team would only open up another hole to be filled.
Valid point. Ilya Kovalchuk was a premier young player in NHL with Atlanta as well - he did everything right - except single handedly put the team over the top and win games that mattered. Because well, it takes more than just one player to compete consistently in the NHL.

There are plenty of capable players in the game - that given the opportunity would shine on Toronto's top line / Top PP minutes. Sean Couturier aone for example may not represent a significant decrease in offensive production - but he may improve the club in other areas that Phil doesn't nessecarily excel at.

Maybe we could get more ... perhaps someone like Bernier? Or Lack? Or Schneider? Certainly not proven commodities - but anyone that could step in and help out Reimer would go along way in the teams overall success.

I don't know what teams would be willing to offer - I'd just like it to be open for discussion.

The "PHIL KESSEL ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE HE'S THE BEST EVER" mentality is extremely insular. And short-sighted. Especially when you consider the success we've had the last 4 years with him as "Our Guy"


Last edited by DaveT83*: 02-01-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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02-01-2013, 03:32 PM
  #137
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This is just too funny. I'm loving the comments, especially how Kessel's value is going down the tubes.

News flash: This isn't even his longest drought. Relax people lol.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:33 PM
  #138
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So I thought this was obvious, but apparently it isn't, so here comes a mind-breaking explanation:

Right now - "We have Kessel, but we don't have a center. We need an elite center"


Trade Kessel for a center - "We have a center, but we don't have a Phil Kessel. We need an elite winger".


Creating one hole, to fix another, is a sideways step at best.


Last edited by Tak7: 02-01-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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Old
02-01-2013, 03:36 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
It's kind of pointless to say this but...do you even watch the Leafs games? Kessel has been a consistent threat in the offensive zone and has been getting praise from Carlyle.

"I think the last two games from Phill Kessel played, he's skated and been more active on the ice. Been more involved in the game from an energy stand point, from a system stand point. Leading with his stick, putting pressure on the opposition, cutting the ice in half. All those things that we're asking and you know the goals are gonna come."

"He's got to continue to keep working and not get down, every goal scorer gets frustrated. Our job is to maintain a positive attitude."

Also why do you keep bringing up the team standings and team results when Hockey is a team game and Kessel is only one player on one line on this team.
Believe me I don't want to talk about his stats at all - but its the only argument his supporters have used to date. And now that he's not producing they are conveniently trying to spin the argument into something entirely different that now supports their stance.

I don't care if he scores 50 or scores 5. His success does not represent a significant contribution to the teams overall success in the only statistical category that matters - the win/loss column.

I would say right now - that Jay McClement's contribution to the PK alone - represent a greater contribution to standings than any of Phil Kessels 30+ goal scoring campaigns.

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02-01-2013, 03:41 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I will try and put this in a real life context since a lot of you have a difficult time separating your favorite players success from that of your favorite teams:

Right now Phil Kessel is a $25,000 espresso machine in a coffee shop that is bleeding money and is struggling to pay its bills. It also appears to be broken at the moment and will require additional resources to fix it ... When you first bought it you thought the coffee shop would be a lot busier. Its now been 4 years and its still not doing very well. What do you do?

The argument a lot of you are trying to suggest is that you are afraid customers will no longer buy ANY coffee AT ALL from you unless you have this amazing machine. But in the 'rational' world the correct thing to do for the future success of your business would be to trade that machine in - for a cheaper but still productive one - and maybe use the rest of funds to help pay off your line of credit/buy supplies and pay your employees. Maybe it makes more sense to spend that money on advertising your business - to get traffic though the doors - then when you get back in the red it might be worth looking into investing an expensive machine again.

Right now with Phil Kessel this team isn't bankrupt - but we have a lot of problems that need to be addressed ... the only cure many of you have is crossing your fingers and hoping that: A) A quality UFA will join - B) some mid-teir prospects will over-achieve or C) you're willing to trade off assets to keep Phil Kessel in the loop.

My solution to our:

Questionable Goaltending
Lack of Size/Grit upfront

Would be to trade Phil Kessel for a 1G + PWF with 25 goal capabilites. if we are fortunate enough to draft high again in this upcoming draft we look for our !C - with the horses we currently have in stable it shouldn't take a lot to fill out the lineup so that we can begin competiting on a consistent basis.
put the bong dude brah.

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02-01-2013, 03:42 PM
  #141
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put the bong dude brah.
You better watch out. Omar comin yo!

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02-01-2013, 03:43 PM
  #142
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i would say right now - that jay mcclement's contribution to the pk alone - represent a greater contribution to standings than any of phil kessels 30+ goal scoring campaigns.

amazing!

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02-01-2013, 03:43 PM
  #143
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The "PHIL KESSEL ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE HE'S THE BEST EVER" mentality is extremely insular. And short-sighted.
Who exactly is saying this?

What the more rationale posters seem to be saying is that making a "lateral trade" is pointless. Whereas those with more of an anti-Kessel bias, seem to be looking to move him due to the fact he hasn't got the 2-3 goals he should have after 7 games.

If there is an overpayment deal out there that can be made, I don't think anyone would be against it. But of course, that is just common sense, or at least should be.

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02-01-2013, 03:44 PM
  #144
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I didn't really see any effort out of him for the most part, but last game he played his ass off. Usually he'd have a few weak shots per game, but against the sabres he generated some really good scoring chances. Not too worried. He'll bounce back, when he stops creating chances is when we should get worried.

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02-01-2013, 03:45 PM
  #145
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nothing brings the lunatics/trolls out of the woodwork like a phil kessel thread.

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02-01-2013, 03:48 PM
  #146
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Believe me I don't want to talk about his stats at all - but its the only argument his supporters have used to date. And now that he's not producing they are conveniently trying to spin the argument into something entirely different that now supports their stance.

I don't care if he scores 50 or scores 5. His success does not represent a significant contribution to the teams overall success in the only statistical category that matters - the win/loss column.

I would say right now - that Jay McClement's contribution to the PK alone - represent a greater contribution to standings than any of Phil Kessels 30+ goal scoring campaigns.
I'm not even gonna bother going into that argument you just tried to make... but I'll put it this way...

All 30 NHL GM's disagree with you. There is a reason PK makes 5.4 mill and Mclement makes 2.5. Consistent 30 goal scorers are far more rare than good defensive forwards, of which there are many readily available.

The whole point of this argument, is that you need more than 1 piece to win. You never create one hole to fill another, its pointless. Trading PK is essentially watering down your talent level, because you're not going to get a player as good coming back.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This fan base needs to stop trying to trade 25 year old stars hoping for greener pastures. We've got some talent in place, we just need more.

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02-01-2013, 03:49 PM
  #147
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Cox is like some here. It's fine to chuckle to yourself at the stupidity but it's best not to acknowledge it.
This needs repeating.

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02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
  #148
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Who exactly is saying this?

What the more rationale posters seem to be saying is that making a "lateral trade" is pointless. Whereas those with more of an anti-Kessel bias, seem to be looking to move him due to the fact he hasn't got the 2-3 goals he should have after 7 games.

If there is an overpayment deal out there that can be made, I don't think anyone would be against it. But of course, that is just common sense, or at least should be.
Can you tell me than what you think a fair trade would be? Or what you think an over-payment would include. All I see are people saying that unless we get Crosby/Stamkos/Perry/Sedins in return its not worth it. I don't know how that equates to anything other than "PHIL KESSEL IS THE BEST he can't be moved"

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02-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #149
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I'm not even gonna bother going into that argument you just tried to make... but I'll put it this way...

All 30 NHL GM's disagree with you. There is a reason PK makes 5.4 mill and Mclement makes 2.5. Consistent 30 goal scorers are far more rare than good defensive forwards, of which there are many readily available.

The whole point of this argument, is that you need more than 1 piece to win. You never create one hole to fill another, its pointless. Trading PK is essentially watering down your talent level, because you're not going to get a player as good coming back.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This fan base needs to stop trying to trade 25 year old stars hoping for greener pastures. We've got some talent in place, we just need more.
Who is suggesting that we are just giving Phil Kessel away? And not replacing him with anything of value? Jesus man - I dont' want to just put him in the press box and let him walk via FA.

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02-01-2013, 03:57 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Can you tell me than what you think a fair trade would be? Or what you think an over-payment would include. All I see are people saying that unless we get Crosby/Stamkos/Perry/Sedins in return its not worth it. I don't know how that equates to anything other than "PHIL KESSEL IS THE BEST he can't be moved"
I'll lay it out for you:

You need elite talent to win the Stanley Cup

Therefore, you don't trade elite talent for non-elite talent

Phil Kessel is an elite talent, he finished top 10 in scoring

Therefore, you don't trade Phil Kessel for non-elite talent


Unless there is an elite level player coming back, that helps us in other areas of the ice that are of weakness, there is no point trading Kessel. This team doesn't need to "rebuild"... it needs to continue to build.

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