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Phil Kessel Discussion Thread. (no goals as of Feb 4, 2013)

View Poll Results: kessel goals, 15 over or under, this year
over 86 51.50%
under 81 48.50%
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Old
02-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #151
Volcanologist
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Originally Posted by McClements New A View Post
He's now on pace for 0 goals and 27 assists in a 48 game season. How will he, his agent, and his GM (who'll try to move him) explain that one? Should there be a special asterisk beside that zero?

"*played really hard, learned how to back check, and rang the goal post like no other."

Kessel is not scoring and that is going to show when anyone reflects on his career.

Look at Belfour's career. Just before he became a leaf he had an off year with Dallas. Toronto fans were really skeptical and booed him when he didn't come out playing sharp.

Those little blips are actually bigger than you realize. Kessel will score, but will be hard pressed to score over 10 goals.


This is fantastic.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:58 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
I'm not even gonna bother going into that argument you just tried to make... but I'll put it this way...

All 30 NHL GM's disagree with you. There is a reason PK makes 5.4 mill and Mclement makes 2.5. Consistent 30 goal scorers are far more rare than good defensive forwards, of which there are many readily available.

The whole point of this argument, is that you need more than 1 piece to win. You never create one hole to fill another, its pointless. Trading PK is essentially watering down your talent level, because you're not going to get a player as good coming back.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This fan base needs to stop trying to trade 25 year old stars hoping for greener pastures. We've got some talent in place, we just need more.
I agree, but you've got to admit, it's so refreshing having a great shut down/pk specialist you can have faith in. Who was the last player that was really a shut down/pk specialist on the Leafs? Dom Moore?

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:58 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Can you tell me than what you think a fair trade would be? Or what you think an over-payment would include. All I see are people saying that unless we get Crosby/Stamkos/Perry/Sedins in return its not worth it. I don't know how that equates to anything other than "PHIL KESSEL IS THE BEST he can't be moved"
Why don't you tell us what a fair deal would be?

To me, those above would be the kind of overpayment you do the trade for. Anything less is pointless.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:59 PM
  #154
Diamond Joe Quimby
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Can you tell me than what you think a fair trade would be? Or what you think an over-payment would include. All I see are people saying that unless we get Crosby/Stamkos/Perry/Sedins in return its not worth it. I don't know how that equates to anything other than "PHIL KESSEL IS THE BEST he can't be moved"
First time I've seen this, but I'll take your word.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:01 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by buntek View Post
I agree, but you've got to admit, it's so refreshing having a great shut down/pk specialist you can have faith in. Who was the last player that was really a shut down/pk specialist on the Leafs? Dom Moore?
Oh I'm with you... Mcclement has helped our pk a ton.

But there are far more good pkers than 82 pt, 35 goal scorers. It's not like this offseason was the first time we had a chance at adding a pk guy, we just never chose to make that move.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:02 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
I'll lay it out for you:

You need elite talent to win the Stanley Cup

Therefore, you don't trade elite talent for non-elite talent

Phil Kessel is an elite talent, he finished top 10 in scoring

Therefore, you don't trade Phil Kessel for non-elite talent


Unless there is an elite level player coming back, that helps us in other areas of the ice that are of weakness, there is no point trading Kessel. This team doesn't need to "rebuild"... it needs to continue to build.
Finally some common sense.

Great post.

Phil Kessel isn't untouchable or untradeable.

But you don't even consider trading him unless the player you are getting back is an equal elite player.

And considering we are talking about a guy who finished where he did in scoring last season, I'm not sure there are too many guys that you want in here instead of him.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #157
Diamond Joe Quimby
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Finally some common sense.

Great post.

Phil Kessel isn't untouchable or untradeable.

But you don't even consider trading him unless the player you are getting back is an equal elite player.

And considering we are talking about a guy who finished where he did in scoring last season, I'm not sure there are too many guys that you want in here instead of him.
This is it. Take into consideration that he's 25 and fits in with a young core as well, and trading him is poor asset management.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:07 PM
  #158
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Yea the problem with trading Phil Kessel is you could essentially end up with a Rick Nash kind of trade.

So basically one elite player for 3-4 lesser support players, fine for a Columbus, but we really only need one or two more big pieces, not a bunch of support pieces.

Unless it's a number 1 Centre, or a #1 G+top 6 forward It would be a sideways move, even a #1 Centre trade would be a sideways move, as we'd just end up looking for a winger ala the Sundin days.

Keep him, end in the bottom 10 this year and draft your #1 C, none of this trade crap.

He's a great piece once the team becomes more well rounded.

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02-01-2013, 03:14 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
Yea the problem with trading Phil Kessel is you could essentially end up with a Rick Nash kind of trade.

So basically one elite player for 3-4 lesser support players, fine for a Columbus, but we really only need one or two more big pieces, not a bunch of support pieces.

Unless it's a number 1 Centre, or a #1 G+top 6 forward It would be a sideways move, even a #1 Centre trade would be a sideways move, as we'd just end up looking for a winger ala the Sundin days.

Keep him, end in the bottom 10 this year and draft your #1 C, none of this trade crap.

He's a great piece once the team becomes more well rounded.

If you look at the other top scoring wingers in the league right now:

Kovalchuk, Neal, Hossa, Elias, Gaborik etc. I honestly can't say I'd trade PK for any of those guys. Coincidentally all those guys play on elite teams. It can be argued that he's the best winger in the league right now. Definitely top 5.

Like you said, sure we can trade him for a G or #1 C, but at the end of the day you'll need to acquire a Phil Kessel type player down the road.

You need these guys to win the Cup.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:15 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Why don't you tell us what a fair deal would be?

To me, those above would be the kind of overpayment you do the trade for. Anything less is pointless.
Here's an example of a realistic trade I would be extremely happy about

Kassian - he'd easily score 25 on our Top Line - makes us a hell of a lot more difficult to play against - is also fairly responsible at both ends of the ice.

Schneider - No Brainer given our situation in goal

On the main boards they are also willing to throw in a 1st+3rd !



Please try and convince me that those 4 additions would make our team worse in the standings than Phil Kessel alone already has

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:17 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I would say right now - that Jay McClement's contribution to the PK alone - represent a greater contribution to standings than any of Phil Kessels 30+ goal scoring campaigns.
Ok this is getting out of hand.

Kessel last year scored

3 goals when up by 1

3 goals when up by 2

2 goals when up by 3

7 goals when down by 1

6 goals when down by 2

1 goal when down by 4



13 goals when tied

1 penalty shot goal

1 empty net goal


Scored 7 goals in the 1st period

Scored 16 goals in the 2nd period

Scored 14 goals in the 3rd period


I know you hate Kessel with a passion obviously and anything he does can't change your mind but you're really reaching if you think Kessel's 30 goal campaigns didn't contribute as much success to McClement on the PK in 7 games.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:19 PM
  #162
topched
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Here's an example of a realistic trade I would be extremely happy about

Kassian - he'd easily score 25 on our Top Line - makes us a hell of a lot more difficult to play against - is also fairly responsible at both ends of the ice.

Schneider - No Brainer given our situation in goal



Please try and convince me that those 2 additions would make our team worse than having Phil Kessel
Kassian... don't think he'd score 25 on our top line. He'll likely get about 25 goals-projected this year if he were to play a full season with the Sedins. Imagine a top line of JVR-Bozak-Kassian. That line would sure be a doozy

Scheider does not have the experience to back up the "no brainer"... he's a marginal upgrade on Reimer at this point... and in fact his stats are worse than Reimers as of right now and he's playing on a better team.

Neither of those guys are elite players, and actually they don't even project to be elite players.

If we're looking at a goalie... in return for PK you're looking at MA Fleury, Cam Ward, Carey Price etc. in terms of quality. And newsflash, no one is giving up an elite #1 goalie, because they can't be replaced.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:21 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Here's an example of a realistic trade I would be extremely happy about

Kassian - he'd easily score 25 on our Top Line - makes us a hell of a lot more difficult to play against - is also fairly responsible at both ends of the ice.

Schneider - No Brainer given our situation in goal

On the main boards they are also willing to throw in a 1st+3rd !



Please try and convince me that those 4 additions would make our team worse in the standings than Phil Kessel alone already has
Thats speculation man. Kassians best point total in the NHL is 7 points... You would honestly do a PK for Kassian straight up trade?

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:24 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Here's an example of a realistic trade I would be extremely happy about

Kassian - he'd easily score 25 on our Top Line - makes us a hell of a lot more difficult to play against - is also fairly responsible at both ends of the ice.

Schneider - No Brainer given our situation in goal

On the main boards they are also willing to throw in a 1st+3rd !



Please try and convince me that those 4 additions would make our team worse in the standings than Phil Kessel alone already has
I think all the losing over the years has gone to your head. Maybe you should take some time off...

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:49 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
This is it. Take into consideration that he's 25 and fits in with a young core as well, and trading him is poor asset management.
we ll see ....25 but coming into a UFA year.what if he craps the bed next year and walks ,,,,,trust me this new ownership has eyes all over the sports world ,,kessel is like anyone else on a team that lacks leadership and hasnt made the playoffs in 10 years.50 /50 isnt good enuff ,,,,,if hed take a 2 year contract extension at 5.5 then 6 mil then id say hes serious about staying in toronto ....we ll see

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
  #166
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Schneider is bombing in his first chance at a starting gig....at age 26, no less.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by hullsy47 View Post
we ll see ....25 but coming into a UFA year.what if he craps the bed next year and walks ,,,,,trust me this new ownership has eyes all over the sports world ,,kessel is like anyone else on a team that lacks leadership and hasnt made the playoffs in 10 years.50 /50 isnt good enuff ,,,,,if hed take a 2 year contract extension at 5.5 then 6 mil then id say hes serious about staying in toronto ....we ll see
So unless he takes a ****** deal for himself, it means he doesn't want to stay in TO?

Oh lawd.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:55 PM
  #168
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Even if Kessel is not scoring he is still tying up the opponents shut down guys. If you get rid of Kessel suddenly they can focus more on the Grabo or kadri lines. Just having someone who the other teams know is a threat helps even if he is not scoring yet.

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02-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Who is suggesting that we are just giving Phil Kessel away? And not replacing him with anything of value? Jesus man - I dont' want to just put him in the press box and let him walk via FA.
So is that like saying "at least I'm not cup67"? You can do better.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #170
topched
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So unless he takes a ****** deal for himself, it means he doesn't want to stay in TO?

Oh lawd.
Also...
Ignore 4 straight seasons of 30 goals.... Hes gonna "crap the bed" in his ufa year and walk!

Trade him now while he still has value!


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Old
02-01-2013, 04:00 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
Ok this is getting out of hand.

Kessel last year scored

3 goals when up by 1

3 goals when up by 2

2 goals when up by 3

7 goals when down by 1

6 goals when down by 2

1 goal when down by 4



13 goals when tied

1 penalty shot goal

1 empty net goal


Scored 7 goals in the 1st period

Scored 16 goals in the 2nd period

Scored 14 goals in the 3rd period


I know you hate Kessel with a passion obviously and anything he does can't change your mind but you're really reaching if you think Kessel's 30 goal campaigns didn't contribute as much success to McClement on the PK in 7 games.
Hammer = dropped.

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Old
02-01-2013, 05:28 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Oh I'm with you... Mcclement has helped our pk a ton.

But there are far more good pkers than 82 pt, 35 goal scorers. It's not like this offseason was the first time we had a chance at adding a pk guy, we just never chose to make that move.
For me, I just love the guys that do the little things and compete like he does. It was such an area of need for he past couple of seasons, I think that's why I'm enjoying his play so much.

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02-01-2013, 05:58 PM
  #173
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Whoever said Kessel is playing the best hockey of his career is absolutely right. Ignore the goal column for second and actually watch him play - he has never been as involved in the game (on both ends of the ice) as he has this year. Its too bad he hasn't potted one yet, but I know the pucks will eventually start going in and I'm ecstatic to see him evolve into a more complete player.

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02-01-2013, 06:30 PM
  #174
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Kessel=Beast. Please give him his 8 years this summer.

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02-01-2013, 07:44 PM
  #175
The Apologist
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Kessel=Beast. Please give him his 8 years this summer.
Yup, 8 years 7 per. Do it up.

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