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When does Vokoun become the Pen's starter?

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Old
02-01-2013, 05:29 PM
  #201
PensFanSince1989
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This thread is full of over reactions/the usual suspects that were just waiting to pounce. Fleury has played 4 games, he's had 1 poor one, and that game he simy played down to the level as the rest of the team. Both Fleury's wins have been more impressive than bothy Vokoun's wins, despite Vokoun's shutout. Vokoun is a solid goalie and I'm glad we have him to push Fleury and step in when needed. However, I have a feeling many in this thread clamouring for him to start are the same ones yelling we would never win a cup with Fleury before '09, saying we should trade Fleury and make Conklin the number 1 in '08, trade Fleury and make Johnson the #1 in October 2010.

I for the most part support Fleury, won't hide that but will say I am somewhat disappointed that be hasn't take. It to the next level in terms of his consistency. But at the same time, no goalie is going to have gaudy numbers playing for the Penguins over the past few seasons. They aren't a goalie stat friendly team. And people have to stop trying to find a scapegoat, whether it was Whitney back in the day, Staal prior to the trade, Fleury, Martin, etc.

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02-01-2013, 05:45 PM
  #202
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Knock off the personal attacks, guys. Every year this thread pops up and every year we end up having to shut it down because it devolves into name-calling.

If the sight of the thread bothers you, please click the little X to the right of the title on the Pensboard's mainpage. It'll disappear and you won't have to even see it when you log in.

Many thanks.

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02-01-2013, 05:51 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
This thread is full of over reactions/the usual suspects that were just waiting to pounce. Fleury has played 4 games, he's had 1 poor one, and that game he simy played down to the level as the rest of the team. Both Fleury's wins have been more impressive than bothy Vokoun's wins, despite Vokoun's shutout. Vokoun is a solid goalie and I'm glad we have him to push Fleury and step in when needed. However, I have a feeling many in this thread clamouring for him to start are the same ones yelling we would never win a cup with Fleury before '09, saying we should trade Fleury and make Conklin the number 1 in '08, trade Fleury and make Johnson the #1 in October 2010.

I for the most part support Fleury, won't hide that but will say I am somewhat disappointed that be hasn't take. It to the next level in terms of his consistency. But at the same time, no goalie is going to have gaudy numbers playing for the Penguins over the past few seasons. They aren't a goalie stat friendly team. And people have to stop trying to find a scapegoat, whether it was Whitney back in the day, Staal prior to the trade, Fleury, Martin, etc.
I agree that everyone over-reacts to some degree, it's kinda the nature of boards in general. and it's only 4 games each into the season..

We finally have a legit starting level quality goal tender to back Fleury up. IF Fleury's stats are simply a product of the penguins system, and I have argued similar arguments in the past, However, I'm starting to get off that train watching the difference in how the team plays in front of Vokoun, we'll see if that trend continues.

Thus far 4 games each, Fleury save % is 89, Vokoun's is 94% To small a sample size to draw a conclusion. However it does feed the pitchfork crowd rather well.

But in my head it will put the argument to rest at the end of the season comparing Vokoun's stats and Fleury's. I have defended Fleury in the past, and I still think that the Tampa series was not his fault, but you can't argue if one goalie plays significantly better behind the same set of players.

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02-01-2013, 06:27 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
This thread is full of over reactions/the usual suspects that were just waiting to pounce. Fleury has played 4 games, he's had 1 poor one, and that game he simy played down to the level as the rest of the team. Both Fleury's wins have been more impressive than bothy Vokoun's wins, despite Vokoun's shutout. Vokoun is a solid goalie and I'm glad we have him to push Fleury and step in when needed. However, I have a feeling many in this thread clamouring for him to start are the same ones yelling we would never win a cup with Fleury before '09, saying we should trade Fleury and make Conklin the number 1 in '08, trade Fleury and make Johnson the #1 in October 2010.

I for the most part support Fleury, won't hide that but will say I am somewhat disappointed that be hasn't take. It to the next level in terms of his consistency. But at the same time, no goalie is going to have gaudy numbers playing for the Penguins over the past few seasons. They aren't a goalie stat friendly team. And people have to stop trying to find a scapegoat, whether it was Whitney back in the day, Staal prior to the trade, Fleury, Martin, etc.
The problem I have with this is that there isn't really anything to base this on. How do we know a different goalie wouldn't have done better? What evidence is there that the Pens are especially hard to play behind? If you asked every diehard fan out there, they'd rant on about how their team turns the puck over too much. It's just the perception every deeply invested fan has because we all die a thousand deaths with each mistake.

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02-01-2013, 06:34 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
The problem I have with this is that there isn't really anything to base this on. How do we know a different goalie wouldn't have done better? What evidence is there that the Pens are especially hard to play behind? If you asked every diehard fan out there, they'd rant on about how their team turns the puck over too much. It's just the perception every deeply invested fan has because we all die a thousand deaths with each mistake.
I've been fascinated with this mindset for a while now, and I honestly think it arises from this reason: people are so focused on their own favourite teams, that they see their team as the only one with any agency. So any goal for their team ends up being a result of their team's good play, while any goal against is a result of a blunder. That's why I think people tend to overrate offensive-minded players on their own team, while underrating defensive-minded ones.

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02-01-2013, 06:36 PM
  #206
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bad system for a goalie + inconsistent goalie = disaster. in my opinion Vokoun will end up as the starter when the going gets tough.

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02-01-2013, 07:00 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post

I for the most part support Fleury, won't hide that but will say I am somewhat disappointed that be hasn't take. It to the next level in terms of his consistency. But at the same time, no goalie is going to have gaudy numbers playing for the Penguins over the past few seasons. They aren't a goalie stat friendly team. And people have to stop trying to find a scapegoat, whether it was Whitney back in the day, Staal prior to the trade, Fleury, Martin, etc.
But how do we know this for certain? Fleury's been the only starting goalie this team has known since the lockout. The rest of the guys who've played behind this "non-stat friendly team" were career backups like Conklin, Johnson, etc. You make it sound like we've had a handful of bonafide starters come through here over the past 7 or so seasons, and all had struggled stat-wise because of the system we play. Instead, all we've got to judge how "stat friendly" this team is is by Fleury's stats.

This is the first season we've had a legitimate starter other than Fleury. I think Vokoun's stats this year could go a long way to determining whether or not the Pens really "aren't a goalie stat friendly team" or whether it's more likely Fleury simply isn't as good as some fans believe he is.

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02-01-2013, 07:01 PM
  #208
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It has been alluded to earlier in this thread, but it is also worth considering what the Pens hypothetically could get for Fleury, both in terms of players, prospects and cap hit relief.

Ideal trade: acquire prospects and or draft picks. How nice would it be to have an additional 1st or 2nd round pick in this year's (deep) draft?

Replacement goalie: we would be looking for a new backup goalie so why not just promote Zatkoff? His cap hit is $0.525M, so we would be saving almost $4.5M.

Upgraded roster: Having an additional $4.5M would allow us to make a major upgrade at a position of our choosing (both this season and the next season+. Say for instance we wanted to replace Kennedy and traded him for a draft pick; we would now have $4.5M + $2.0M = $6.5M to spend on that player AND would have acquired draft picks and or prospects for trading Fleury and Kennedy.

Disaster plan: If Vokoun gets hurt and Zatkoff doesn't cut it, we could look into acquiring a decent backup at the trade deadline. Probably an option we should have explored last year with Johnson.

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02-01-2013, 07:02 PM
  #209
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There's been a couple years where this was a very stat friendly team. At one point Bylsma had this team fashioned into a machine. It just hasn't been that for the last 30 or so games they've played.

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02-01-2013, 07:08 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
I suggest we change the thread title to "MAF just became the winning goalie in franchise history — let's get rid of him."
Wins are a team stat. Saying Maf is a good goalie because he has a lot of wins is like saying a starting pitcher in baseball is a great pitcher because he won a lot of games. It's stupidity.

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02-01-2013, 07:09 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
It has been alluded to earlier in this thread, but it is also worth considering what the Pens hypothetically could get for Fleury, both in terms of players, prospects and cap hit relief.

Ideal trade: acquire prospects and or draft picks. How nice would it be to have an additional 1st or 2nd round pick in this year's (deep) draft?
Although it is hypothetical dont goalies hold fairly less value? The current teams in the market for a goalie are toronto for sure but a bunch of other teams im not sure about like the caps, devils and islanders.

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02-02-2013, 12:41 AM
  #212
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Wins are a team stat. Saying Maf is a good goalie because he has a lot of wins is like saying a starting pitcher in baseball is a great pitcher because he won a lot of games. It's stupidity.
It's not a perfect measure but there's a very positive correlation between goalies collect a lot of wins and goalies who are considered "good". So such a claim is about as far from stupidity as one could get. If you want to say that Fleury is the exception to the rule, then okay but let's keep bad logic out of the conversation.

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02-02-2013, 03:44 AM
  #213
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It's not a perfect measure but there's a very positive correlation between goalies collect a lot of wins and goalies who are considered "good". So such a claim is about as far from stupidity as one could get. If you want to say that Fleury is the exception to the rule, then okay but let's keep bad logic out of the conversation.
Goalies who get a lot of wins are generally considered good because, well, wins are good. It's one of the more obvious forms of circular logic in sports.

Like a lot of others, I believe MAF is a fairly average NHL starter. He'll go through hot and cold stretches like any other goalie, the difference being that when he goes through a period of excellent hockey, his supporters cite this as evidence that he is an upper echelon goalie who simply has consistency issues, yet consistency is what seperates average from good and good from great. Goalies should not be judged on the alleged quality of their peaks and valleys, rather the frequency that they occur. Any goalie can get hot or go on a slump. It doesn't mean that when they occur there has to be a narrative attached. Being a #1 pick doesn't mean that every hot streak is evidence of that goalie's immense talent, nor does every poor stretch have to be a result of his fragile psyche and personal insecurity issues. They are just convenient explanations we form to suit our own preconceptions.

As TheSniper26 noted previously, Fleury's status as a #1 pick superstar in the making has kind of put this halo around his head, which has now been cemented after winning the Cup in 09'. For these people Fleury will never be the problem, it will always be the team around him - never mind that Fleury has had the aid of the league's highest scoring team since the Penguins have been relevant again. It's a mindset that's difficult to understand. Goalies are there to bail your team out when they make mistakes and teams generate quality scoring chances, which will happen with great frequency with any team. If you're only counting on your goalie to make casual saves and absolve him of any responsibility otherwise then what is the point of investing that much money into a goalie? Much less one that can't be counted on to play well under difficult circumstances?

What I find interesting is that when Fleury has put together strong regular seasons, like in 2010-2011 and 2007-2008, he's statistically been outplayed by his backups. If this is, as many people claim, to be a result of a better defensive environment, why not invest into our defense and make that a priority instead of investing valuable cap space into a goalie who can only thrive under optimal conditions? It certainly begs the question, does it not? And let's not forget that in other seasons where Fleury has shared time with an established NHL goalie he hasn't done much of anything to distance himself performance wise. Hard to blame the team in front of him when both goalies are playing behind the same group of players with the same system in place.

If Fleury were to ever be replaced by a less established but similarly effective goalie I'm betting that he would be vilified by a good portion of the fanbase on account of being mediocre without the hype to justify their blind faith. Though with Vokoun, there's a large body of excellent work that should ease their minds if the reigns were handed to him. And to nobody's surprise, I would have made Vokoun the starter from day one. This isn't a slight on Fleury, TV is simply an all-world goaltender who has been criminally undervalued because he couldn't perform miracles with the Florida Panthers.

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02-02-2013, 04:05 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Goalies who get a lot of wins are generally considered good because, well, wins are good. It's one of the more obvious forms of circular logic in sports.

Like a lot of others, I believe MAF is a fairly average NHL starter. He'll go through hot and cold stretches like any other goalie, the difference being that when he goes through a period of excellent hockey, his supporters cite this as evidence that he is an upper echelon goalie who simply has consistency issues, yet consistency is what seperates average from good and good from great. Goalies should not be judged on the alleged quality of their peaks and valleys, rather the frequency that they occur. Any goalie can get hot or go on a slump. It doesn't mean that when they occur there has to be a narrative attached. Being a #1 pick doesn't mean that every hot streak is evidence of that goalie's immense talent, nor does every poor stretch have to be a result of his fragile psyche and personal insecurity issues. They are just convenient explanations we form to suit our own preconceptions.

As TheSniper26 noted previously, Fleury's status as a #1 pick superstar in the making has kind of put this halo around his head, which has now been cemented after winning the Cup in 09'. For these people Fleury will never be the problem, it will always be the team around him - never mind that Fleury has had the aid of the league's highest scoring team since the Penguins have been relevant again. It's a mindset that's difficult to understand. Goalies are there to bail your team out when they make mistakes and teams generate quality scoring chances, which will happen with great frequency with any team. If you're only counting on your goalie to make casual saves and absolve him of any responsibility otherwise then what is the point of investing that much money into a goalie? Much less one that can't be counted on to play well under difficult circumstances?

What I find interesting is that when Fleury has put together strong regular seasons, like in 2010-2011 and 2007-2008, he's statistically been outplayed by his backups. If this is, as many people claim, to be a result of a better defensive environment, why not invest into our defense and make that a priority instead of investing valuable cap space into a goalie who can only thrive under optimal conditions? It certainly begs the question, does it not? And let's not forget that in other seasons where Fleury has shared time with an established NHL goalie he hasn't done much of anything to distance himself performance wise. Hard to blame the team in front of him when both goalies are playing behind the same group of players with the same system in place.

If Fleury were to ever be replaced by a less established but similarly effective goalie I'm betting that he would be vilified by a good portion of the fanbase on account of being mediocre without the hype to justify their blind faith. Though with Vokoun, there's a large body of excellent work that should ease their minds if the reigns were handed to him. And to nobody's surprise, I would have made Vokoun the starter from day one. This isn't a slight on Fleury, TV is simply an all-world goaltender who has been criminally undervalued because he couldn't perform miracles with the Florida Panthers.
I agree with pretty much every single word of this.

I'd also like to stress that I don't think Fleury is a bad goalie at all. I think he's got a lot of talent but is held back by his fairly marginal improvement in his weakest areas(puck handling, rebound control, overplaying shots, etc). I'd put him firmly in the middle of the pack as a flawed, but capable starter. If he wasn't among the top 10 highest paid goalies, I'd likely give him a little more leeway. But if you're being paid like an elite goalie in today's cap world, you better play like one with some consistency.

There's this sentiment on here that if you don't have 100% faith in Fleury as the starter, you're simply bashing him. Not true at all in my case. I like the guy and would absolutely rather he just polish up his weak areas and become the starter we all want him to be. I mean we're all rooting for the same team here. But it hasn't really happened yet and the window where excuses can be made for him has closed in my opinion.

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02-02-2013, 05:10 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Goalies who get a lot of wins are generally considered good because, well, wins are good. It's one of the more obvious forms of circular logic in sports.

Like a lot of others, I believe MAF is a fairly average NHL starter. He'll go through hot and cold stretches like any other goalie, the difference being that when he goes through a period of excellent hockey, his supporters cite this as evidence that he is an upper echelon goalie who simply has consistency issues, yet consistency is what seperates average from good and good from great. Goalies should not be judged on the alleged quality of their peaks and valleys, rather the frequency that they occur. Any goalie can get hot or go on a slump. It doesn't mean that when they occur there has to be a narrative attached. Being a #1 pick doesn't mean that every hot streak is evidence of that goalie's immense talent, nor does every poor stretch have to be a result of his fragile psyche and personal insecurity issues. They are just convenient explanations we form to suit our own preconceptions.

As TheSniper26 noted previously, Fleury's status as a #1 pick superstar in the making has kind of put this halo around his head, which has now been cemented after winning the Cup in 09'. For these people Fleury will never be the problem, it will always be the team around him - never mind that Fleury has had the aid of the league's highest scoring team since the Penguins have been relevant again. It's a mindset that's difficult to understand. Goalies are there to bail your team out when they make mistakes and teams generate quality scoring chances, which will happen with great frequency with any team. If you're only counting on your goalie to make casual saves and absolve him of any responsibility otherwise then what is the point of investing that much money into a goalie? Much less one that can't be counted on to play well under difficult circumstances?

What I find interesting is that when Fleury has put together strong regular seasons, like in 2010-2011 and 2007-2008, he's statistically been outplayed by his backups. If this is, as many people claim, to be a result of a better defensive environment, why not invest into our defense and make that a priority instead of investing valuable cap space into a goalie who can only thrive under optimal conditions? It certainly begs the question, does it not? And let's not forget that in other seasons where Fleury has shared time with an established NHL goalie he hasn't done much of anything to distance himself performance wise. Hard to blame the team in front of him when both goalies are playing behind the same group of players with the same system in place.

If Fleury were to ever be replaced by a less established but similarly effective goalie I'm betting that he would be vilified by a good portion of the fanbase on account of being mediocre without the hype to justify their blind faith. Though with Vokoun, there's a large body of excellent work that should ease their minds if the reigns were handed to him. And to nobody's surprise, I would have made Vokoun the starter from day one. This isn't a slight on Fleury, TV is simply an all-world goaltender who has been criminally undervalued because he couldn't perform miracles with the Florida Panthers.
That is one solid post there! Kudos. Needs no other comments.

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02-02-2013, 08:10 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
I agree with pretty much every single word of this.

I'd also like to stress that I don't think Fleury is a bad goalie at all. I think he's got a lot of talent but is held back by his fairly marginal improvement in his weakest areas(puck handling, rebound control, overplaying shots, etc). I'd put him firmly in the middle of the pack as a flawed, but capable starter. If he wasn't among the top 10 highest paid goalies, I'd likely give him a little more leeway. But if you're being paid like an elite goalie in today's cap world, you better play like one with some consistency.

There's this sentiment on here that if you don't have 100% faith in Fleury as the starter, you're simply bashing him. Not true at all in my case. I like the guy and would absolutely rather he just polish up his weak areas and become the starter we all want him to be. I mean we're all rooting for the same team here. But it hasn't really happened yet and the window where excuses can be made for him has closed in my opinion.
This. I think the problem is that Fleury is so busy trying to be great, he forgets about buckling down and being good. Until this changes we will probably see the same type of inconsistent performances. Under pressure, when it is always toughest to rely on skill rather than basics like sound positioning and control, he will struggle, with the great saves competing with the soft goals for everyone including his team mates and himself to judge how well he is playing and how well he keeps his head. Not the best for a team to play in front of, unsure of what they have behind them backing them up.

He might have been a great goalie by now if he had not been picked first overall, and focused on playing the game in a way it makes it look easy rather than him and everyone else focused on his great expectations.

Vokoun getting the starts if/when he deserves them would be a step in the right direction. Anything else is just adding to the mindset that Fleury should be great no matter what. Play the better goalie, not the one with the most potential. in fairness to both, and to the team.


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