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Will the "Zucc" be back? (3/25: Agrees to terms)

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02-01-2013, 04:11 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Agreed it seems to me like there's almost an elitist attitude against him or at the very least a lot of people dealing in revisionist history and absolutes.
Seems to be that MZA is the unluckiest player in the world, or at least since Petr Prucha.

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02-01-2013, 04:17 PM
  #202
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Or?

He made our opening night lineup last season over Avery and Christensen unless I am misstaken.

Facts:
-Torts played him his rookie season.

-He was on pace to score almost 50 pts from a third line.

-Last season, he made the team out of camp in tough competition.

-The entire team struggled tremendously and Zucc took the fall for that (for sure).

-Then he got hurt in the AHL.

-The team started to be able to play 60 minutes, and when we needed to bring someone up Zucc -- who definitely according to any report was the first in line for a call-up and the best player in HFD -- was hurt and Hagelin and Mitchell got a shot. And they took it.

-After much agony, Zucc got another shot still and was instantly played on the PP and in a decent role.

-Then he broke his arm blocking a shot and didn't come back.

Alot of tough luck there for sure. But did Torts hate him? All we know is that Torts didn't bump Gabby or Cally and kept Prust on the 3rd line.

I do have a little problem with the talk around Zucc. I think it orgins to a large extent from people believing that they best guys are in the NHL, how good they are shows from their stats and how everyone is able to perform on their own in the game of hockey.

For every year I watch this game, watch kids for years in europe before they go over to the NHL (where they stay or don't stay), come back, watch kids in World Juniors or junior hockey in Canada or the AHL, I am more and more and more struck by how big of a impact "circumstances" outside a kid's control affects the career of the said kid and how extremely important the environement is both in terms of development but also of course in terms of stats and prodcution.

I know that many don't see eye to eye with me on Zucc, but I thought he played a very high level and made many amazing things in the NHL when he got a chance. He was never rattled by the pressure on him, and every time he got a shot played managed to play his game with very small marginals without misshandling pucks or doing what most nervous players do. He opened up a ton of ice with the way he handled the puck around the boards and threaded passes.

But he was put in a horrible environment for him. He had Gabby, Cally and Prust ahead of him on the depth chart, and always had to take a back seat to those two. He was forced to play with a unexperienced, small and avg skating center in Derek Stepan and a non-factor defensive player in Wojtek Wolski. We put a midget norwegian offensive wiz in a Nik Sundström with Gretz and AK role. But he still did alright. Stayed in the league. Often was a huge contributor in lifting his line which on many nights resulted in Torts playing the WW-Step-Zucc line as a 1/2 line.

I just don't get the talk of Zucc being worthless at all to be perfectly honest. I do not know what Zucc could have done if he had played with 6'2 vet center who was decent both ways. The avg 1st/2nd line center in this league. What he could have done with a Elias/Zajac, Staal/Staal, Richard/Carter, Thonton/Pavelski, Dats/Zetterberg, Malkin/Sid, Toews/Sharp, Bergeron/Krejci, just to name a few, or a center in that mold. I do not know, but I certainly wonder how anyone else can know either.

But I have seen him been a monster in the SEL breaking the scoring record for a forign player, I've seen him do it game in and game out, season after season.

Nobody is saying that he is a star. He is undoubtedly one-dimensional. But its hard to see why he couldn't be a very good player in this league.
There's no question to me that the talent is there. It's not about his being Norwegian--what's killing him is his size and strength-even 2 more inches and 15 extra pounds would make a huge difference and if he had an extra gear of speed he could be comparable to a Marin St. Louis. Genetics are what they are and for a 5'6-5'7 player going up against against skilled 6'2-6'3 players on smaller rinks where size and strength can be as important as creativity it is tough. As a pwp specialist Zucc would do pretty well but it's not enough when the coach wants you out there in other situations.

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02-01-2013, 04:19 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I really wish more people would understand this about the bottom 6 of the NY Rangers. 4 balanced scoring lines is virtually a myth in the NHL.

And the attitude thats its attainable is why you see so much mindless hate towards guys like Boyle.

Excellent post.

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02-01-2013, 04:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No, it's not on Torts. He obviously has demands of his players and those are to play in all three zones.

There's the rub. The bottom six on this team are checking lines and he doesn't play good enough defense to work on bottom six.
If Torts refuses to trust him that is on Torts because Zooks never gave a reason not to be trusted. Zooks was never a minus player and he never shied away from contact. People that say he sucked on defense or was not tough enough either did not watch him play or were never willing to give him a chance because that was just not the reality. In fact he back checked as much or more than any forward on the team. What season was Zooks a minus player in the NHL or the AHL.

I have read the rule book backwards and forwards. I have never seen a rule that says half the forwards on the team have to be no skill grinders with no creativity. Zooks put up half a point per game playing mostly on the 3rd and 4th lines. How is having guys that score 5-15 points a season or who are not even forwards better playing for a team than a guy that actually produced? People say this stuff on one hand then complain when we cant score enough goals.

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02-01-2013, 04:31 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
If Torts refuses to trust him that is on Torts because Zooks never gave a reason not to be trusted. Zooks was never a minus player and he never shied away from contact. People that say he sucked on defense or was not tough enough either did not watch him play or were never willing to give him a chance because that was just not the reality. In fact he back checked as much or more than any forward on the team. What season was Zooks a minus player in the NHL or the AHL.

I have read the rule book backwards and forwards. I have never seen a rule that says half the forwards on the team have to be no skill grinders with no creativity. Zooks put up half a point per game playing mostly on the 3rd and 4th lines. How is having guys that score 5-15 points a season or who are not even forwards better playing for a team than a guy that actually produced? People say this stuff on one hand then complain when we cant score enough goals.
If theres one thing I've learned on hfboards, its that its impossible to argue with somebody who truly believes what they are seeing - even if it spits in the face of all roads leading to the truth.

You believe MZA possesses an all-around game capable of consistent NHL minutes. Thats nice, and thats your right. The Rangers coaching staff, who know a lot more than you, don't feel that way. A lot of people on this board, most of whom's opinions I respect, don't feel that way. So is it maybe, just maybe, possible that what you're seeing and believing just isn't the truth?

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02-01-2013, 04:41 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
If Torts refuses to trust him that is on Torts because Zooks never gave a reason not to be trusted. Zooks was never a minus player and he never shied away from contact. People that say he sucked on defense or was not tough enough either did not watch him play or were never willing to give him a chance because that was just not the reality. In fact he back checked as much or more than any forward on the team. What season was Zooks a minus player in the NHL or the AHL.

I have read the rule book backwards and forwards. I have never seen a rule that says half the forwards on the team have to be no skill grinders with no creativity. Zooks put up half a point per game playing mostly on the 3rd and 4th lines. How is having guys that score 5-15 points a season or who are not even forwards better playing for a team than a guy that actually produced? People say this stuff on one hand then complain when we cant score enough goals.
Shying away from contact and getting run over physically by much bigger players are two different things. MZA is not shy. He is also not big enough-strong enough lined up against a lot of other NHL forwards. It's not a question of courage or will. His problem is he is tiny and at even strength has to be spotted into the lineup. He wasn't ever able to crack the top 6 which leaves him in the no man's land of fighting for a spot reserved for people who forecheck, hit, fight and penalty kill--things that are not his strengths. Bottom 6 NHL forward slots don't always go to the more talented player. The basic requirement for those players is that they can skate and grind.

The other thing about Torts--he's a small guy who played in the minors and never made it. He was the guy that St. Louis first prospered under. If MZA were for real he'd be on this team.

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02-01-2013, 05:05 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Shying away from contact and getting run over physically by much bigger players are two different things. MZA is not shy. He is also not big enough-strong enough lined up against a lot of other NHL forwards. It's not a question of courage or will. His problem is he is tiny and at even strength has to be spotted into the lineup. He wasn't ever able to crack the top 6 which leaves him in the no man's land of fighting for a spot reserved for people who forecheck, hit, fight and penalty kill--things that are not his strengths. Bottom 6 NHL forward slots don't always go to the more talented player. The basic requirement for those players is that they can skate and grind.

The other thing about Torts--he's a small guy who played in the minors and never made it. He was the guy that St. Louis first prospered under. If MZA were for real he'd be on this team.
guys are always looked past, Parenteau has been great since leaving the Rangers. They are dummies for not giving the guy more time.......Zuccarello could do just fine and he would VERY helpful right now given the lack of depth

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02-01-2013, 05:33 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If theres one thing I've learned on hfboards, its that its impossible to argue with somebody who truly believes what they are seeing - even if it spits in the face of all roads leading to the truth.

You believe MZA possesses an all-around game capable of consistent NHL minutes. Thats nice, and thats your right. The Rangers coaching staff, who know a lot more than you, don't feel that way. A lot of people on this board, most of whom's opinions I respect, don't feel that way. So is it maybe, just maybe, possible that what you're seeing and believing just isn't the truth?
Actually you post opinions while I will continue to post facts.

Fact-MZA averaged around .5 ppg in the NHL
Fact-MZA was one of the highest points per minute played player on the whole team
Fact-MZA was never a minus player on the Rangers or the Whale
Fact-The Whale coaches multiple times said Zooks was the player best suited to be called up.
Fact-Slats has said publicly he wants Zooks
Fact-The Rangers coaching staff never said what you said.

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02-01-2013, 05:37 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Shying away from contact and getting run over physically by much bigger players are two different things. MZA is not shy. He is also not big enough-strong enough lined up against a lot of other NHL forwards. It's not a question of courage or will. His problem is he is tiny and at even strength has to be spotted into the lineup. He wasn't ever able to crack the top 6 which leaves him in the no man's land of fighting for a spot reserved for people who forecheck, hit, fight and penalty kill--things that are not his strengths. Bottom 6 NHL forward slots don't always go to the more talented player. The basic requirement for those players is that they can skate and grind.

The other thing about Torts--he's a small guy who played in the minors and never made it. He was the guy that St. Louis first prospered under. If MZA were for real he'd be on this team.
Where is it written that half of a teams forwards have to be low skilled players who only grind? Where is it written that it is better to have 6 players that are little threat to score go against other teams tops lines? MZA played a lot of 3rd line and 4th line. He was never a minus player so obviously he was on the ice for more Rangers goals than the opposition goals. That does not even take in to effect the added PP benefit.

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02-01-2013, 05:47 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
guys are always looked past, Parenteau has been great since leaving the Rangers. They are dummies for not giving the guy more time.......Zuccarello could do just fine and he would VERY helpful right now given the lack of depth
Not a fan of Parenteau's. He's capable of putting up points and not much else. What he did with the Islanders playing with Tavares, Moulson and with plenty of pwp needs to be put in some kind of perspective. He was never going to get that opportunity with the Rangers. He wasn't going to beat out the guys the Rangers had ahead of him and the Islanders continued to be a weak team even with him putting up those points. They simply did not have anyone better suited to play with Tavares.

Again--Zucc is not a good bottom line option. The Rangers this off season moved several players key to third line roles whether or not some of them sometimes got second line opportunities--Anisimov, Dubinsky, Fedetenko, Prust provided some offensive production but also all hit, forechecked, killed penalties and in the case of Prust and occasionally Dubinsky dropped the gloves. They could all be relied on late in games to be defensively responsible. They all were big enough and strong enough--were all situations players if need be. Zucc did not deserve to be in the lineup ahead of any of them--whatever additional help he could provide as a specialty player on our pwp was negated by his play or inability to play up to par in those other areas.

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02-01-2013, 06:04 PM
  #211
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PA does not play with Tavares any longer and is scoring more than ever. He has 5 goals in 7 games. All even strength goals.

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02-01-2013, 06:14 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Where is it written that half of a teams forwards have to be low skilled players who only grind? Where is it written that it is better to have 6 players that are little threat to score go against other teams tops lines? MZA played a lot of 3rd line and 4th line. He was never a minus player so obviously he was on the ice for more Rangers goals than the opposition goals. That does not even take in to effect the added PP benefit.
In 52 NHL games with us Zucc had 8 goals and 26 points. In 2010-11 he got avg. ice time of 14.10 per game including average pwp time of 2.32 per game which resulted in 0 goals 9 assists. A creative player--these are okay numbers--not spectacular. As for even strength ice time that year his average is only higher than two other regulars that year both of whom (Avery, Christensen) the coach really did have major issues with.

Last year Zucc was injured off and on. In his 10 NHL games he scored 2 goals 1 assist and averaged just under 10 minutes ice time a game though his average of 3 minutes per game pwp time is quite high. He produced a goal and an assist on the pwp in those 10 games. That goal and assist made a huge impression on some apparently--a lot more of an impression than his less than 7 minutes per game even strength time. Basically he couldn't crack the top 6 and the coach wasn't sure how to use him effectively in the bottom 6. He became a pwp specialist with limited even strength time to give the rest of the forwards a bit of a breather or to be more blunt about it Tortorella didn't trust him all that much at even strength.

It's frustrating to some that the Rangers offense quite often seems anemic. Tortorella is in the business of winning games anemic offense or not. The Rangers team during his tenure has been built around defense and disciplined play not free lancing. MZA is a very talented guy--but his game is built more around his ability to free lance. Tortorella expects his bottom line forwards to live and die by his philosophy of defense and discipline. Yeah--skate and grind is a major part of it. It's been successful the last couple years. At least as far as my hockey team goes when it wins a lot more than it loses I don't argue about it--I tend to accept it as a good thing.

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02-01-2013, 06:37 PM
  #213
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It's frustrating to some that the Rangers offense quite often seems anemic. Tortorella is in the business of winning games anemic offense or not. The Rangers team during his tenure has been built around defense and disciplined play not free lancing. MZA is a very talented guy--but his game is built more around his ability to free lance. Tortorella expects his bottom line forwards to live and die by his philosophy of defense and discipline. Yeah--skate and grind is a major part of it. It's been successful the last couple years. At least as far as my hockey team goes when it wins a lot more than it loses I don't argue about it--I tend to accept it as a good thing.
I don't remember MZA freelancing at all but there is no sense in debating this back and forth. You like what you see on the ice. Some other fans have a different opinion of what they see on the ice. We all have a right to what we like to watch. I hope you enjoy the season.

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02-01-2013, 06:38 PM
  #214
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Actually you post opinions while I will continue to post facts.

Fact-MZA averaged around .5 ppg in the NHL
Fact-MZA was one of the highest points per minute played player on the whole team
Fact-MZA was never a minus player on the Rangers or the Whale
Fact-The Whale coaches multiple times said Zooks was the player best suited to be called up.
Fact-Slats has said publicly he wants Zooks
Fact-The Rangers coaching staff never said what you said.
Rate stats that show he did not play much at the NHL level. You really showed me with those facts of yours. Maybe next time they can orbit somewhere near relevancy.

What more does the coaching staff need to say? If they thought he would help this team in any way, he would've been here, period.

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02-01-2013, 06:55 PM
  #215
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Rate stats that show he did not play much at the NHL level. You really showed me with those facts of yours. Maybe next time they can orbit somewhere near relevancy.

What more does the coaching staff need to say? If they thought he would help this team in any way, he would've been here, period.
Or it could be that Zooks took a guaranteed multi million dollar offer over a chance to play in the NHL but also a chance that he would spend some time in the minors. With all due respect you nor I can put words in the coaches mouths and say this is what they said about any player.

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02-09-2013, 07:31 AM
  #216
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Nr one in Best hits of the week award in khl...(I've seen better....)

Also from Norway's latest national game....He got named the best player on the ice (He didn't agree on that one, but felt it was because of moves like this)

He was very good in this game, looked like he was having tons of fun..



Just trying to keep his name "out there"....

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02-09-2013, 07:38 AM
  #217
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when his seasons over they need to either sign him or trade his rights for an asset at the deadline

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02-15-2013, 04:36 PM
  #218
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Sweet goal from the little one...

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02-15-2013, 04:44 PM
  #219
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Sweet goal from the little one...
at Gangnam Style being the goal song. Which NHL team do you think will be the first to change their song to that?

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02-15-2013, 05:36 PM
  #220
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Rangers did a nice job here to throw away a NHL player. Guess it'll be nice to settle in with Kris Newbury/JT Miller in the top 9.

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02-15-2013, 05:38 PM
  #221
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Rangers did a nice job here to throw away a NHL player. Guess it'll be nice to settle in with Kris Newbury/JT Miller in the top 9.
rather call up Andrew Yogan or Mashinter over that bum Newbury is useless....

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02-15-2013, 06:02 PM
  #222
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Rangers did a nice job here to throw away a NHL player. Guess it'll be nice to settle in with Kris Newbury/JT Miller in the top 9.
Seriously--you think we'd be better off with Zuccarello in the lineup than Miller? It's a bit of a rush job on Miller but even so he at least has enough size and strength to hold his own along the boards and in the corners. Zuccarello would just be a pwp/shootout specialist and there's no guarantee that are pwp would be any better with him than it is without him. If it's not scoring much with Nash, Gaborik and Richards what would make you think that it would score more just adding Zuccarello. He's certainly not on the level of the above mentioned.

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02-15-2013, 07:03 PM
  #223
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Seriously--you think we'd be better off with Zuccarello in the lineup than Miller? It's a bit of a rush job on Miller but even so he at least has enough size and strength to hold his own along the boards and in the corners. Zuccarello would just be a pwp/shootout specialist and there's no guarantee that are pwp would be any better with him than it is without him. If it's not scoring much with Nash, Gaborik and Richards what would make you think that it would score more just adding Zuccarello. He's certainly not on the level of the above mentioned.
Yes.

It's pretty moronic that management goes out and gives Stu Bickel an opening day guarantee in the lineup along with a 2 yr deal for being 'tough' and playing with 'grit'. That roster spot could've easily been used to transpire Zuccarello in the lineup, who was creating scoring chance after scoring chance playing with Boyle before his wrist injury. Basically a slap in the face to MZA to sign a scrub a 2-yr deal and already acclaiming Kreider as a guarantee top 6 player to start the year. Can't blame him for chasing the leaving. Small sample size, but Zuccarello-Boyle-Mitchell looked pretty good out there last year in the limited sample size I saw them play in. Controlling possession, getting shots away, easier transition, etc.

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02-15-2013, 07:40 PM
  #224
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Seriously--you think we'd be better off with Zuccarello in the lineup than Miller? It's a bit of a rush job on Miller but even so he at least has enough size and strength to hold his own along the boards and in the corners. Zuccarello would just be a pwp/shootout specialist and there's no guarantee that are pwp would be any better with him than it is without him. If it's not scoring much with Nash, Gaborik and Richards what would make you think that it would score more just adding Zuccarello. He's certainly not on the level of the above mentioned.
Yeah but there's no YouTube videos of Miller scoring against disgraceful defenses.

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02-15-2013, 08:02 PM
  #225
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Yes.

It's pretty moronic that management goes out and gives Stu Bickel an opening day guarantee in the lineup along with a 2 yr deal for being 'tough' and playing with 'grit'. That roster spot could've easily been used to transpire Zuccarello in the lineup, who was creating scoring chance after scoring chance playing with Boyle before his wrist injury. Basically a slap in the face to MZA to sign a scrub a 2-yr deal and already acclaiming Kreider as a guarantee top 6 player to start the year. Can't blame him for chasing the leaving. Small sample size, but Zuccarello-Boyle-Mitchell looked pretty good out there last year in the limited sample size I saw them play in. Controlling possession, getting shots away, easier transition, etc.
Sad Stu is signed at $700,000. It would have taken at least a one way contract at $2M to sign Zuccarello. He wanted to get paid.

Quote:
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Yeah but there's no YouTube videos of Miller scoring against disgraceful defenses.


Last edited by SixGoalieSystem: 02-15-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Corrected numbers.
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