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Classic 1989-90 Gretzky vs Lemieux game on youtube (Gretzky, 3 goals and 3 assists)

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01-31-2013, 05:38 PM
  #1
tazzy19
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Classic 1989-90 Gretzky vs Lemieux game on youtube (Gretzky, 3 goals and 3 assists)

Amazing to see these guys go head to head in their primes. In this game, Gretzky is all over the ice, and is a complete master of manipulating time and space on the hockey rink. Just watch what he does starting at 1hr, 22mins, 45secs. There is no goal scored, but the way he reads the flow of the game, and then manipulates the game to his liking is almost spooky. He could have had 12 points this game, and would have scored 6 or 7 goals himself had he not missed a point blank shot at the beginning of the game and 3 point blank shots at the end of the game. The announcer a few minutes into the game: "Gretzky could already have the hat trick." Lemieux is amazing as well, scoring 3 assists in a losing cause.

Apparently Gretzky totally dominated Lemieux in head to head competition over their careers -- outscoring Lemieux in points with his assists alone, yet still handedly outscoring Lemieux in goals as well: http://www.blogofmike.com/2011/01/gr...ad-update.html



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01-31-2013, 05:44 PM
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Darth Yoda
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I would'nt read to much into the head-to-head statistics as half of the games were before Lemieux really arrived and then we have just a small sample. Will be interesting to watch the game though.

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01-31-2013, 05:54 PM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I would'nt read to much into the head-to-head statistics as half of the games were before Lemieux really arrived and then we have just a small sample. Will be interesting to watch the game though.
I don't know. Gretzky handily outscores Lemieux post-Oilers as well -- and once again, with his assists alone. Lemieux doesn't even outscore post-Oilers Gretzky in goals! Keeping in mind, this is when Lemieux was fully in his prime, and Gretzky was well past his.... Also take note, it is not true that Lemieux had not arrived yet for half the games. He had arrived by 1988, when he won the Hart Trophy and Art Ross Trophy for the first time. In fact, most of their head to head games are after Gretzky was traded to the Kings.


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01-31-2013, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I don't know. Grezky handily outscores Lemieux post-Oilers as well -- and once again, with his assists alone. Lemieux doesn't even outscore post-Oilers Gretzky in goals! Keeping in mind, this is when Lemieux was fully in his prime, and Gretzky was well past his.... Also take note, it is not true that Lemieux had not arrived yet for half the games. He had arrived by 1988, when he won the Hart Trophy and Art Ross Trophy for the first time. In fact, most of their head to head games are after Gretzky was traded to the Kings.
How do you figure that the sample size are large enough? It's not like the Penguins were very good defensively, well at any time really. I think it's better to look at full seasons when comparing the two.

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01-31-2013, 07:06 PM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
How do you figure that the sample size are large enough? It's not like the Penguins were very good defensively, well at any time really. I think it's better to look at full seasons when comparing the two.
I agree, full seasons are the best way to compare them. But I find it interesting, and even somewhat surprising, that Gretzky dominates Lemieux to such an absurd degree head to head -- even past his Oilers days while playing for some pretty bad defensive teams himself.

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01-31-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I agree, full seasons are the best way to compare them. But I find it interesting, and even somewhat surprising, that Gretzky dominates Lemieux to such an absurd degree head to head -- even past his Oilers days while playing for some pretty bad defensive teams himself.
But what happens to their numbers post 1987 if we subtract these head-to-head meetings, considering Lemieux during those years allready outscored Gretzky as it is?

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01-31-2013, 07:30 PM
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Thanks for posting, but I'm not seeing anything at 1:22 or :45?

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01-31-2013, 08:28 PM
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thanks...fun game..

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01-31-2013, 10:32 PM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Thanks for posting, but I'm not seeing anything at 1:22 or :45?
No, it's at 1hr, 22mins, 45secs.

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01-31-2013, 10:39 PM
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tazzy19
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But what happens to their numbers post 1987 if we subtract these head-to-head meetings, considering Lemieux during those years allready outscored Gretzky as it is?
Post 1987 while Gretzky is still in his prime or past his prime? Gretzky's true prime was until he was traded in 1988, IMO, though it is debatable. His prime ended early because he played a tonne of hockey by that point, including 3 Championships in a 365 day period consisting of two Stanley Cups and a Canada Cup from the spring of 1987 to the spring of 1988. Gretzky in 1988 was clearly better than Lemieux was in 1987-1988, and clearly better than he, himself, was in 1988-1989. Just look at his PPG average in 1988, and look what he did in the playoffs to win the Conn Smythe -- he set the record for most points in a Stanley Cup finals with 13 that year -- but he did it in only 4 games.

What you need to look at is their numbers after the same number of games played to get a clearer picture. This analysis is probably the best one I've ever read on how their numbers compare:

http://www.blogofmike.com/2011/01/gr...ey-played.html

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02-01-2013, 12:36 AM
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Can't remember which thread it was (well, there have been many, but most recently) discussing estimates of Gretzky's ice time over the years. Look no further than this game for (somewhat) supporting evidence of the 30+ minute average during his prime, when (even in later years as a King) it still wasn't unusual to see Gretzky play as much as 3 minutes at a time before coming off. I think he played almost the entire 3:15 between puck drop of this game and the Waters/Recchi penalties, changing just 10 seconds or so before. Of course, he was back on for the second wave of that penalty kill, and ended up with a shorthanded goal, lol.

Speaking of shorthanded work, notice the number of times Gretzky tries to push the play, even while shorthanded, but instead of just dumping it in and giving up possession when pressured on the rush, he sends it back to his own end so the whole team can reset with the puck. Shows you the difference between the creative possession game of yesteryear and the almost NFL-esque yard by yard territory battle of the modern systematic grinder game, where those pucks would be dumped in, fought for, and maybe recovered as much as 50% of the time if they're lucky.


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02-01-2013, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
No, it's at 1hr, 22mins, 45secs.
Thanks.

The most impressive thing to me is that it shows how often he did that. His wingers just completely pause and peel off before entering the offensive zone knowing that Gretzky will enter the zone on his own watch.

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02-01-2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Speaking of shorthanded work, notice the number of times Gretzky tries to push the play, even while shorthanded, but instead of just dumping it in and giving up possession when pressured on the rush, he sends it back to his own end so the whole team can reset with the puck. Shows you the difference between the creative possession game of yesteryear and the almost NFL-esque yard by yard territory battle of the modern systematic grinder game, where those pucks would be dumped in, fought for, and maybe recovered as much as 50% of the time if they're lucky.
Good point.

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02-01-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Can't remember which thread it was (well, there have been many, but most recently) discussing estimates of Gretzky's ice time over the years. Look no further than this game for (somewhat) supporting evidence of the 30+ minute average during his prime, when (even in later years as a King) it still wasn't unusual to see Gretzky play as much as 3 minutes at a time before coming off. I think he played almost the entire 3:15 between puck drop of this game and the Waters/Recchi penalties, changing just 10 seconds or so before. Of course, he was back on for the second wave of that penalty kill, and ended up with a shorthanded goal, lol.
That was a long long shift for even the late 80s!

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02-01-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Thanks.

The most impressive thing to me is that it shows how often he did that. His wingers just completely pause and peel off before entering the offensive zone knowing that Gretzky will enter the zone on his own watch.
You have to wonder what would have happened if Wayne ever had the chance to play with a group of Russian trained players, whose entire system was based upon this sort of play. Gretzky made god-like use out of "north-south" trained players, I can only imaging what he would have done if you plunked him down in the middle of the Russian 5, or similar players raised and trained in a much more "cycling" system.

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02-01-2013, 04:20 PM
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That was a long long shift for even the late 80s!
Wasn't unusual for Gretzky, even as late as '89. The announcers don't even comment on it with any wonder, or mention anything about it being an unusually long shift in this game footage. And there are plenty of similar stretches as the game goes on, broken up by the odd TV timeout, or penalty/goal stoppages.

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02-01-2013, 05:54 PM
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A related question I have: why did Ftorek get fired in 1989 after the Kings made the second round?

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02-01-2013, 06:39 PM
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tazzy19
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A related question I have: why did Ftorek get fired in 1989 after the Kings made the second round?
If I remember, he didn't get along well with Gretzky, and insisted putting the Kings' farm team players on Gretzky's line for a week at a time. In Gretzky's autobiography, he joked that Ftorek was basically putting out advertisements in their farm club saying, "Win a spot on the Kings, play with Wayne Gretzky, and two tickets to Disneyland." Gretzky went on to say that he had stupid team rules, and even benched Gretzky in one game from the 2nd period on, even though he had a 5 point night going at the time. Gretzky apparently had broken his stick on the net after missing a chance, and that was breaking one of Ftorek's team rules. Gretzky said he had another few points in him given the time of the incident, and was aiming to beat his personal best 8 point mark when he was benched. He felt that Ftorek wasn't that serious about winning a Stanley Cup, and obviously had philosophical differences with him.

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02-01-2013, 06:42 PM
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A related question I have: why did Ftorek get fired in 1989 after the Kings made the second round?
I think he actually benched Gretzky at some point because Wayne showed emotion on the ice and broke his stick against a goal post during a game. Apparently Ftorek didn't like players showing emotion on the ice. Which is funny considering the outburst he had in New Jersey with the bench throwing incident. That probably rubbed off a lot of people the wrong way, namely Kings owner Bruce McNall. Who the hell does Ftorek think he is benching the greatest player of all time?

It's not a surprise that he was canned from the Devils bench before they went on their Cup run in 2000.

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