Not sure anyone is trying to perpetuate a myth - the clear historical record is enough to go on -- no embellishment required.
1. To qualify, Bobby Orr was NOT an enforcer. This is not being stated. However, neither should his fighting prowess be diminished.
2. Not sure what qualifies someone as a "great" fighter, but Orr was certainly way better than "good" -- and certainly much better than above average, at least when looking at the numbers.
3. Not sure what ratios people use to quantify these sorts of things, but for the sake of evaluation:
a) A sucky fighter loses more than he wins.
b) An average fighter wins some, loses some, and draws some -- roughly an equal amount of the time.
c) An above average fighter wins more than he loses. d) Better than above average fighter wins the vast majority of his fights.
e) An excellent fighter hardly ever loses a fight.
Looking at the historical record, in person and via video, Bobby Orr is imo unquestionably in category "e" (some may say "d") -- that is the historical record, no myth needed.
So quality of competition doesnt matter? Orr never or rarely fought a heavyweight. He's not an excellent fighter in any way. He was a tough player who could throw em.
Is this an excellent fighter? Holding on for dear life and suddenly gets balls when another player jumps in.
where is this excellent fighter u keep mentioning?
So quality of competition doesnt matter? Orr never or rarely fought a heavyweight. He's not an excellent fighter in any way. He was a tough player who could throw em. Is this an excellent fighter? Holding on for dear life and suddenly gets balls when another player jumps in. Where is this excellent fighter u keep mentioning?
Oh my, is this the BEST you can do to try and discredit Orr? I didn't say he knocked everyone out ala Mike Tyson, but as far as hockey fights go, he was an excellent fighter.
People trying to discredit Orr in this regard on this thread should do some more homework. I think this post written by an esteemed boxing guru holds more weight than this weak display at disparaging Orr -- yes, it's already been posted, but it bears more weight than what you could ever say.
Of the videos you chose, only the Edestrand one has Orr at the disadvantage, as he doesn't bother taking any swings, a rare occurrence for him. In fact, a wise play by Edestrand, a far inferior player taking Orr off the ice for five minutes.
The Quinn fight was just getting started (nice video, btw, I edited and posted that to youtube several months ago), no way to make a final judgment on that other than Orr being on top beating the snot out of him in the end.
The Mikita b**** slap was Orr baiting him for previous stick work.
Not sure why you showed the Magnuson fight -- might as well put the other one up where Orr beats the living tar out of him. Never mind, I'll post it here, with a few others.
And the Hextall one proves what...?
Why not show Orr picking Clement off the ice and throwing him down:
Or giving away several inches to Carlton and pile driving him:
Magnuson had his head pounded into the ice here:
Or taking a significantly larger Ted Irvine down:
Bobby Orr was tenacious as a player, including the scruffs he was involved in. He was not a gentleman's fighter, and was more than happy to keep swinging after the bell, on the ice, etc.
I never claimed he was the number one fighter of all-time, but he was way ABOVE average, and I would say EXCELLENT -- usually on top by the end, throwing the last punches -- in the hockey world, for those who like this sort of thing, this is commendable behavior!
Last edited by 85highlander: 03-30-2012 at 08:00 PM.
Oh my, is this the BEST you can do to try and discredit Orr? I didn't say he knocked everyone out ala Mike Tyson, but as far as hockey fights go, he was an excellent fighter.
People trying to discredit Orr in this regard on this thread should do some more homework. I think this post written by an esteemed boxing guru holds more weight than this weak display at disparaging Orr -- yes, it's already been posted, but it bears more weight than what you could ever say.
Of the videos you chose, only the Edestrand one has Orr at the disadvantage, as he doesn't bother taking any swings, a rare occurrence for him. in fact, a wise play by Edestrand, a far inferior player taking Orr off the ice for five minutes.
The Quinn fight was just getting started, no way to make a final judgment on that other than Orr being on top beating the snot out of him in the end.
The Mikita b**** slap was Orr baiting him for previous stick work.
Not sure why you showed the Magnuson fight -- might as well put the other one up where Orr beats the living tar out of him. Never mind, I'll post it here, with a few others.
And the Hextall one proves what...?
Why not show Orr picking Clement off the ice and throwing him down:
Or giving away several inches to Carlton and pile driving him:
Magnuson had his head pounded into the ice here:
Or taking a significantly larger Ted Irvine down:
Bobby Orr was tenacious as a player, including the scruffs he was involved in. He was not a gentleman's fighter, and was more than happy to keep swinging after the bell, on the ice, etc.
I never claimed he was the number one fighter of all-time, but he was way ABOVE average, and I would say EXCELLENT -- usually on top by the end, throwing the last punches -- in the hockey world, for those who like this sort of thing, this is commendable behavior!
So basically, if the guy is larger and the other guy manage to wrestle him down, hes an excellent fighter.
These videos proves jkxs point. Orr was an above average fighter but definitly nothing "special" in that area. He was special enough in others.
Let's remember that the title of the thread is 'Best Enforcer', which means someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman, not a skilled player who was important to the team's offense. Given those criteria you can't name Probert, Robinson, Howe, Gillies, Nystrom, Bridgeman, etc., who were legitimate players.
So given that, my list would be:
Kocur (most feared fighting opponent of his time)
Dan Maloney - similar fear factor
Dave Schultz
John Ferguson
Paul Laus - boy was he underrated!
Nick Fotiu
Bob 'Battleship' Kelly
Derek Boogard - no one mentioned him yet?????
Dave Brown
George Laracque
I don't see why Semenko was so highly thought of, most of the YouTube stuff has him just basically wrestling.
Next Tier:
Semenko (generously)
Tiger Williams
Tony Twist
Reggie Fleming
Bob 'Hound Dog' Kelly
Eric Cairns
Orland Kurtenbach
Troy Crowder - another VERY underrated fighter
Stu Grimson
Tie Domi - the only real 'enforcer' for his size - neither Jonathan nor Howatt really filled that role
So basically, if the guy is larger and the other guy manage to wrestle him down, hes an excellent fighter.
These videos proves jkxs point. Orr was an above average fighter but definitly nothing "special" in that area. He was special enough in others.
Sorry -- they don't.
Orr's teammates esteemed him to be their team's best fighter though they would rather he didn't because of his value to the team; his cumulative PIMs during his years in Boston were the highest of the Big, Bad Bruins; he consistently jumped in to assist teammates; He was rarely beaten and very often took his opponent down to the ice (rarely seen today). Call it what you want. Too me, and many others (including the linked article to a known boxing guru) he was just as special with this part of his game as with others - excellent.
Bobby Orr was always known as a tough customer and I do remember him winning a vast majority of his fights. For that it would not be wrong to consider him an excellent fighter, certainly above average without a doubt.
Orr's teammates esteemed him to be their team's best fighter though they would rather he didn't because of his value to the team; his cumulative PIMs during his years in Boston were the highest of the Big, Bad Bruins; he consistently jumped in to assist teammates; He was rarely beaten and very often took his opponent down to the ice (rarely seen today). Call it what you want. Too me, and many others (including the linked article to a known boxing guru) he was just as special with this part of his game as with others - excellent.
To take your opponent down to the ice is not a great fighting skill nor the signs of a great enforcer. Orr wasnt feared because he could fight it is as simple as that. Now Robinson was an excellent fighter.
Taking someone down is the signs of a good wrestler. Going in close and punch blindly at the opponent until you fall on top of him is not.
So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.
Maybe because its not true? According to dropyourgloves, Orr fought 5 times in each of his first seasons and averaged ~7 fights per season in the next four.
One of those first season fights was when he jumped Reg Fleming so not really a fight and I wouldnt call the likes of Bill Hicke, Brian Conacher, Doug Roberts, Larry Jeffrey and Yvan Cournoyer for heavyweights. So good for him that he fought those players. Guess we should call Carcillo an excellent fighter for taking on Gaborik.
John Ferguson and Bob Probert were the scariest heavyweights. Pound for pound I'm partial to Stan Jonathan and Chris Neil. All four of those guys could play some hockey as well.
Let's remember that the title of the thread is 'Best Enforcer', which means someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman, not a skilled player who was important to the team's offense. Given those criteria you can't name Probert, Robinson, Howe, Gillies, Nystrom, Bridgeman, etc., who were legitimate players.
So given that, my list would be:
Kocur (most feared fighting opponent of his time)
Dan Maloney - similar fear factor
Dave Schultz
John Ferguson
Paul Laus - boy was he underrated!
Nick Fotiu
Bob 'Battleship' Kelly
Derek Boogard - no one mentioned him yet?????
Dave Brown
George Laracque
I don't see why Semenko was so highly thought of, most of the YouTube stuff has him just basically wrestling.
Next Tier:
Semenko (generously)
Tiger Williams
Tony Twist
Reggie Fleming
Bob 'Hound Dog' Kelly
Eric Cairns
Orland Kurtenbach
Troy Crowder - another VERY underrated fighter
Stu Grimson
Tie Domi - the only real 'enforcer' for his size - neither Jonathan nor Howatt really filled that role
Well, debate away!!
Oh come on... if Probert's not an ENFORCER, no one is. Sure, he had four 40+ point seasons (and one 39 point season)... often playing with Yzerman, whom he was protecting. His main role was to be the team's policeman, though.
Anyway, here's my top 2 tiers of post 1970 Enforcers (someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman), in no particular order...
Top Tier...
Bob Probert
Joey Kocur
Tony Twist
Chris Nilan
Dave Brown
Troy Crowder
Derek Boogard
Marty McSorley
Stu Grimson
Paul Laus
Next Tier...
Dave Semenko
George Laracque
Tim Hunter
Tie Domi
Gino Odjick
Dave Schultz
Sandy McCarthy
Jim McKenzie
Rob Ray
Nick Fotiu
Oh come on... if Probert's not an ENFORCER, no one is. Sure, he had four 40+ point seasons (and one 39 point season)... often playing with Yzerman, whom he was protecting. His main role was to be the team's policeman, though.
Anyway, here's my top 2 tiers of post 1970 Enforcers (someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman), in no particular order...
Top Tier...
Bob Probert
Joey Kocur
Tony Twist
Chris Nilan
Dave Brown
Troy Crowder
Derek Boogard
Marty McSorley
Stu Grimson
Paul Laus
Next Tier...
Dave Semenko
George Laracque
Tim Hunter
Tie Domi
Gino Odjick
Dave Schultz
Sandy McCarthy
Jim McKenzie
Rob Ray
Nick Fotiu
I still think you got to throw Wendell Clark in there even though he brought more to the table than the rest. He fought most of those guys, he was always the first to defend his teammates and was as tough as anyone who ever played the game.
Wendell was a legit tough guy, but I wouldn't call him an enforcer. He had other important jobs on the ice that he did just as well. You couldn't really say that about Boogard.
If we're talking All-Time Tough Guys, he makes the list, along with guys like Tocchet.
