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Roster/trade/etc discussion part IV

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:41 PM
  #251
bumperkisser
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i think if we're planning on leaving vatanen in. (he hasn't looked bad at all, but the kings forwards might ruin him a bit more) we should run lydman as vatanen's partner. it hink that'd be really good for vatanen..
if you can have a sbisa/vatanen pairing you can definitely roll a sbisa/fowler pairing

or obvs we can run lydman/fowler as well

and allen sits

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02-01-2013, 10:43 PM
  #252
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Put Allen on the trade block maybe? Gotta imagine he has at least some trade value, no?

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02-01-2013, 11:38 PM
  #253
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Put Allen on the trade block maybe? Gotta imagine he has at least some trade value, no?
That's who should be put on the block IMO. Don't know if Murray will do that though since he was just signed.

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02-01-2013, 11:47 PM
  #254
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I think it's too risky to trade Allen. With Beauch and Lydman both coming off of injuries, and the shortened season, I'm all for giving some of the vets days off.

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02-01-2013, 11:53 PM
  #255
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it's never a bad thing to have defensive depth, Allen just has to learn to just give the puck to Fowler

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02-02-2013, 12:06 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
A bit early to say DSP is ruined, and likewise, there's no proof that he wouldn't have had the same struggles if he had gone back to juniors.
I didn't say he was ruined, only that if his career does flop people will look back and say he was rushed. But as I said before, nobody can say with certainty who can make the jump straight from juniors and who can't. I just prefer not rushing any of them unless their play demands it.

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02-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #257
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A bit early to say DSP is ruined, and likewise, there's no proof that he wouldn't have had the same struggles if he had gone back to juniors.
I'm going to jump in on this conversation because it's an argument that I have a lot with people as well. Not just regarding DSP but alot of the Ducks young guys.

Someone mentioned players looking not overwhelmed. This argument bothers me, because hopefully as die hard fans we have grown to want more from our players than just not looking out of place. These high drafted players should be producing.

Now with DSP you could argue that he was never drafted nor did he have the skill set to fit into a 2nd line role. I can understand that. But the guy was handed a spot last season, he was handed a spot this season. He hasn't earned anything.

Guys like Holland and Palmieri and Maroon went down, have put in the time and produced. Even Vatanan, although limited has clearly produced in the minors. It bothers me that we then hand a roster spot to Rakell and DSP. Now I'll be the first to say that Rakell has looked fine, but I don't want fine. I want a solid 2nd line two way player. He gains confidence and grows by getting ample ice time. There is no need for him to be in the NHL. Sign a plug who can win faceoffs for that 4th line roll of 8 min a game.As for DSP he simply has never earned a spot on the team IMO. And to me that is what will hurt him overall. He isn't doing anything at the NHL level the team couldn't get from a 4th line grinder. So send him down. Let him play 17 minutes a game. Teach him how to play defense and work within a system, not just to throw his body around. His defensive zone coverage is terrible. Make him earn his spot on this team as a contributor not as a high draft pick. I would also say the same about Etem. He clearly has the physical attributes to play in the NHL, but he still has a ton to learn. He should be learning these things in the minors, making these mistakes in the minors. Where the stress of failure is much much less.

OK End of rant. To me I just don't understand why they don't treat every player like they've treated Palmieri. When they have nothing left to prove at the AHL level and have taken their lumps. That is when a player should be called up. Not because he has potential and he has hype on his side.

Sorry for hijacking the argument between you guys. Just needed to vent.

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02-02-2013, 12:37 AM
  #258
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That was under Carlyle. Boudreau runs things differently. He runs development like he did in Washington. He runs it a bit like Torts does in New York, in that he's not afraid to play younger players. Whether you agree with that or not, that is the reason why things are different from when Palmieri was coming up.

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02-02-2013, 12:49 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Professor John Frink View Post
I'm going to jump in on this conversation because it's an argument that I have a lot with people as well. Not just regarding DSP but alot of the Ducks young guys.

Someone mentioned players looking not overwhelmed. This argument bothers me, because hopefully as die hard fans we have grown to want more from our players than just not looking out of place. These high drafted players should be producing.

Now with DSP you could argue that he was never drafted nor did he have the skill set to fit into a 2nd line role. I can understand that. But the guy was handed a spot last season, he was handed a spot this season. He hasn't earned anything.

Guys like Holland and Palmieri and Maroon went down, have put in the time and produced. Even Vatanan, although limited has clearly produced in the minors. It bothers me that we then hand a roster spot to Rakell and DSP. Now I'll be the first to say that Rakell has looked fine, but I don't want fine. I want a solid 2nd line two way player. He gains confidence and grows by getting ample ice time. There is no need for him to be in the NHL. Sign a plug who can win faceoffs for that 4th line roll of 8 min a game.As for DSP he simply has never earned a spot on the team IMO. And to me that is what will hurt him overall. He isn't doing anything at the NHL level the team couldn't get from a 4th line grinder. So send him down. Let him play 17 minutes a game. Teach him how to play defense and work within a system, not just to throw his body around. His defensive zone coverage is terrible. Make him earn his spot on this team as a contributor not as a high draft pick. I would also say the same about Etem. He clearly has the physical attributes to play in the NHL, but he still has a ton to learn. He should be learning these things in the minors, making these mistakes in the minors. Where the stress of failure is much much less.

OK End of rant. To me I just don't understand why they don't treat every player like they've treated Palmieri. When they have nothing left to prove at the AHL level and have taken their lumps. That is when a player should be called up. Not because he has potential and he has hype on his side.

Sorry for hijacking the argument between you guys. Just needed to vent.

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Old
02-02-2013, 12:49 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
That was under Carlyle. Boudreau runs things differently. He runs development like he did in Washington. He runs it a bit like Torts does in New York, in that he's not afraid to play younger players. Whether you agree with that or not, that is the reason why things are different from when Palmieri was coming up.
I was just thinking of that while watching the game. There is no way, on Gods green earth, that Carlyle would've ever allowed this huge infusion of youth to take over the team at one time. It is fun/scary to see, but it for damn sure makes it interesting!

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02-02-2013, 01:08 AM
  #261
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Professor, my view is pretty much your view. But after tonight's game it's a losing argument around here.

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Old
02-02-2013, 01:17 AM
  #262
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I'm not trying to argue because there is no proof one way or the other but just because Fowler still has a bright future in the NHL doesn't mean he might not have been better off not being rushed. We'll never know. And even if Fowler might be an exception it hardly means every 18 or 19 year old rushed from juniors benefits. DSP?
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It was more a point that, really, it would be hard to say there is a specific way a player should be brought in. I don't think DSP looked overwhelmed last season, or even this season. He just looks lazy and entitled.
I think it's different for every prospect. Holland and Etem didn't make it. Rakell is 19 and dominating in the juniors with not much else to prove. We've waited how many years for Vatanen? Players dictate their future. If they're that good, why stop them? Fowler benefited so much by coming out early. He lived with Scotty! What a perfect set up. But don't look now, but if Lindholm didn't get that first cheap concussion hit and it revealed itself again in another hit, then Lindholm would probably be vying for a spot. Lindholm's calm nature and outrageous stamina would probably put Allen to shame.

It's different for everyone, but if those players make the organization an offer they can't refuse, then don't refuse. I was set on leaving Lindholm over the pond for a season or two, but after hearing the huge rave of Lindholm from the Norfolk coaches it make me feel giddy like we hit jackpot and Lindholm can slide into the NHL easily once the NHL returned, if they returned.

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02-02-2013, 01:42 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Professor John Frink View Post
I'm going to jump in on this conversation because it's an argument that I have a lot with people as well. Not just regarding DSP but alot of the Ducks young guys.

Someone mentioned players looking not overwhelmed. This argument bothers me, because hopefully as die hard fans we have grown to want more from our players than just not looking out of place. These high drafted players should be producing.

Now with DSP you could argue that he was never drafted nor did he have the skill set to fit into a 2nd line role. I can understand that. But the guy was handed a spot last season, he was handed a spot this season. He hasn't earned anything.

Guys like Holland and Palmieri and Maroon went down, have put in the time and produced. Even Vatanan, although limited has clearly produced in the minors. It bothers me that we then hand a roster spot to Rakell and DSP. Now I'll be the first to say that Rakell has looked fine, but I don't want fine. I want a solid 2nd line two way player. He gains confidence and grows by getting ample ice time. There is no need for him to be in the NHL. Sign a plug who can win faceoffs for that 4th line roll of 8 min a game.As for DSP he simply has never earned a spot on the team IMO. And to me that is what will hurt him overall. He isn't doing anything at the NHL level the team couldn't get from a 4th line grinder. So send him down. Let him play 17 minutes a game. Teach him how to play defense and work within a system, not just to throw his body around. His defensive zone coverage is terrible. Make him earn his spot on this team as a contributor not as a high draft pick. I would also say the same about Etem. He clearly has the physical attributes to play in the NHL, but he still has a ton to learn. He should be learning these things in the minors, making these mistakes in the minors. Where the stress of failure is much much less.

OK End of rant. To me I just don't understand why they don't treat every player like they've treated Palmieri. When they have nothing left to prove at the AHL level and have taken their lumps. That is when a player should be called up. Not because he has potential and he has hype on his side.

Sorry for hijacking the argument between you guys. Just needed to vent.
I thought DSP earned it and looked more than the part most of us had him penciled in. DSP was flying high until that injury at the WJC. He hasn't been the same since. He hasn't brought it in Norfolk this year either. That's why I was surprised he made the parent club over Holland. Apparently, BB knows something we don't know, but BB didn't bare witness to DSP when he did break into the league initially.

Palms took a different route. He should have stayed in the NCAA longer than one year, but he only stayed for one year. The next two years he would be in the AHL. In Holland, people noticed a little bit of Getz... the lazy bit. Good thing the AHL coaches noted that Holland needed to develop a 200 foot game, which gives him a carrot to reach for. Similarly, the same assessment happened to Etem.

But this year, after hearing BB's interview versus the Wild game saying he doesn't know why the second line worked at all has me concerned about mismanaging our prospects. Except the reasons BB has make absolute sense such as giving time off for our veterans in this shortened season with many back to back games and such. Makes lots of sense. And if BB said the reason why Holland was sent down was because he's being groomed into a top two center and it would be a waste to be on the fourth line, then you have to think that type of consistency of logic should follow for Rakell as well, as you denoted, Professor, should be playing for a top two center role. Which means Rakell should be sent back to his junior team as he goes back to being the #1 center. But this shortened year has made it into a crazy one so far. Yet since neither Rakell nor Holland have auditioned for the 2C position during a game, then it would be prudent to leave them off the roster. We have Wagner that can come in to play 4C or Holland if it comes to that.

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02-02-2013, 02:08 AM
  #264
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I thought DSP earned it and looked more than the part most of us had him penciled in. DSP was flying high until that injury at the WJC. He hasn't been the same since. He hasn't brought it in Norfolk this year either. That's why I was surprised he made the parent club over Holland. Apparently, BB knows something we don't know, but BB didn't bare witness to DSP when he did break into the league initially.

Palms took a different route. He should have stayed in the NCAA longer than one year, but he only stayed for one year. The next two years he would be in the AHL. In Holland, people noticed a little bit of Getz... the lazy bit. Good thing the AHL coaches noted that Holland needed to develop a 200 foot game, which gives him a carrot to reach for. Similarly, the same assessment happened to Etem.

But this year, after hearing BB's interview versus the Wild game saying he doesn't know why the second line worked at all has me concerned about mismanaging our prospects. Except the reasons BB has make absolute sense such as giving time off for our veterans in this shortened season with many back to back games and such. Makes lots of sense. And if BB said the reason why Holland was sent down was because he's being groomed into a top two center and it would be a waste to be on the fourth line, then you have to think that type of consistency of logic should follow for Rakell as well, as you denoted, Professor, should be playing for a top two center role. Which means Rakell should be sent back to his junior team as he goes back to being the #1 center. But this shortened year has made it into a crazy one so far. Yet since neither Rakell nor Holland have auditioned for the 2C position during a game, then it would be prudent to leave them off the roster. We have Wagner that can come in to play 4C or Holland if it comes to that.
I took his comments regarding "why" the line worked as BB being honest with a bit of a sarcastic undertone. He could have spewed out a number of BS "guesses" as to why it worked. Hell, each one of us could have a different opinion on why it worked. I just think it is unfair to draw conclusions about mismanaging prospects due to the answer to an interview question where, IMO, BB was giving a honest answer.

Completely agree with the rest of your post BTW.

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02-02-2013, 02:17 AM
  #265
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i'm gonna give boudreau the benefit of the doubt here, he did a good job w/the kids in washington and IMO their idiot gm never shoulda meddled and tried to make them change the way they play

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02-02-2013, 02:18 AM
  #266
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I don't think DSP earned it last year. He simply was the best option. I am of the opinion that a player has to be great to skip junior years. DSP was good. He shouldn't have made it IMO, and yes I think it was bad for his development. He 100% should still not be with the club IMO. Bb tried benching him, and although he played a little better, not good enough IMO.

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02-02-2013, 02:42 AM
  #267
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In fairness to Carlyle, Devo was considered the runner up to the Memorial Cup MVP the year that Huberdeau(I think?) won it. It's possible that they felt he had done all there was to do there.

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02-02-2013, 03:05 AM
  #268
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We have 7 good defenceman, why do we want to trade one again? Vatanen has only played 1 NHL game so far, if he ***** the bed after we trade Lydman/Allen etc then what? I'd rather just rotate them myself.

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02-02-2013, 03:09 AM
  #269
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The idea that any player has "done all he can" or "has nothing to prove" is just an unprovable opinion. Just because a teenager plays well in juniors does not mean he is ready to play in a man's league with all the responsibility and pressure that comes with it. They are still teenagers with next to no real world experience in either life or professional sports.

DSP was very mediocre last year until he came back from the WJC injury. The first half of the year he looked like a pee wee player when he got the puck on his stick. He couldn't wait to get rid of it. BM could have signed 20 guys to produce as well as DSP did in ANA. Sure, I supported him and always looked for the best because he was here, but it wasn't a great move having him.

Rakell has looked fine so far but similar to DSP last year he isn't the missing piece to a Cup run. Let him go back and develop more, especially now that he's had a taste of what it's like and what it takes to succeed here.

Sami could be different because I will agree that where he played in Finland was pro and more comparable to the A. But he still is far from having proven himself in the NHL. A lot of guys have made a career out of being a PP specialist who can't play defense to save themselves. Let's see if he can pick it up a notch above that level before anointing him.

Etem has played well in 2 games. Let's see how he does. If he proves he belongs (contributing way more than DSP or Rakell have) maybe he stays. If not, send him back. It's not forever.

Most people here just can't wait to see the next best thing and are anxious to play anybody drafted high. Let's not be rushing everybody. Patience is a virtue.

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02-02-2013, 06:49 AM
  #270
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I agree with Hockey Duckie. Hollands game really needs to mature and he is a top 2 line guy for sure but he doesn't care nearly enough about the defensive end of the ice. For example his game last night in Adirondack scores a goal and is a -3 in a 5-2 game, not going to cut it. I'm torn on Rakell. Maybe BB is going to let him hang with the team and get used to the lifestyle so he's ready to hit the ground running in September. Maybe they see Getz leaving and Koivu retiring and Holland and Rakell both find a spot in Anaheim next year.

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02-02-2013, 06:57 AM
  #271
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We have 7 good defenceman, why do we want to trade one again? Vatanen has only played 1 NHL game so far, if he ***** the bed after we trade Lydman/Allen etc then what? I'd rather just rotate them myself.
I'm not too worried he'll **** the bed, but I absolutely agree it's premature to consider moving D. Anaheim played great tonight, but Minnesota was also terrible. This was probably as easy a game as Vatanen could have seen, and I'd really prefer to see how he looks in some tougher ones, when the opposing team actually puts pressure on us.

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02-02-2013, 09:08 AM
  #272
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We have 7 good defenceman, why do we want to trade one again? Vatanen has only played 1 NHL game so far, if he ***** the bed after we trade Lydman/Allen etc then what? I'd rather just rotate them myself.
8 i think lindholm may be 2nd best of the bunch if/when he gets his chance.

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02-02-2013, 09:40 AM
  #273
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You can never have too much d-men or too many physical defensive players.

Yeah, Allen hasn't actually impressed so far but he's a veteran player and a good 3rd pairing creasecleaner.

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02-02-2013, 09:59 AM
  #274
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I expect Vatanen to sit tonight. I think Allen would be more valuable tonight given the situation.. We need to be tossing bodies tonight.

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02-02-2013, 10:10 AM
  #275
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Vatanen just makes the PP much more dangerous, it's going to be real tough for BB to take him out of the lineup if he's not making a ton of mistakes.

Rotate Allen or Souray out tonight, and see how the D looks with Lyds/Fowler on the top pair, or Sbisa/Fowler. Souray has played well the last few games, but I feel he's going to wear down the quickest during this tough stretch.

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