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No more triple low five

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02-01-2013, 10:18 PM
  #326
Madam Kadri
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Part of being a team is embracing the personalities on it, not trying to make everybody conform into something they're not. Carbo tries stupid team building exercises as well and look how that turned out.
One fundamental purpose of having a team is getting a group to achieve a particular goal; not to let its members have such free reign to the point that they get to destroy each other. At that point, it is no longer a team, but a group of individuals just doing their things. Even conflict and disagreement within teams is fine, but only if that conflict is for achieving the goal at hand and help each other reach that goal, and not for members to perform backstabbing on each other.

Member satisfaction is not to be ignored, but is not of greater priority than achieving the goals the team is set up for. Behavior can be adjusted to conform to a particular value(winning games here) without need to sacrifice one's "personality". Ending the triple low five is to hammer the message that you must focus on the team first, not to totally rein someone in. P.K can go cook up another celebration right in line with his bubbly personality that is more inclusive of everyone else, and we fans don't necessarily even have to see it.

Analogies can be drawn with symphony orchestras or herding animals. There is a goal to be met, and certain deviations will lead to a suboptimal result. For hockey, the most important thing is WINNING GAMES and whatever you do, don't freaking deviate from that.

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02-01-2013, 10:19 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Patrick Kane is every bit the showoff and 10x the doucher that Subban is. Somehow still won the cup. Your inferences aren't backed up by anything substantial.
Patrick Kane is a great example.
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
False Dilemma

Definition:
A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator.
Putting issues or opinions into "black or white" terms is a common instance of this fallacy.
It really is funny to see people somehow associate a low high five with not being able to win anything. I'm fine with them banning the low five if that's what MT wants to do but its not like PK was out there drunkenly beating up a cabbie or anything.

While it's true we don't know what's going on behind closed doors (and we have to remember this) I'm worried that the team is trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:22 PM
  #328
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So bloody stupid, when I first read this on CBC I thought it was a joke. Therrien is an idiot and still don't see him as being the right choice to lead this team.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:25 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Patrick Kane is a great example.

It really is funny to see people somehow associate a low high five wsith not being able to win anything. I'm fine with them banning the low five if that's what MT wants to do but its not like PK was out there drunkenly beating up a cabbie or anything.

While it's true we don't know what's going on behind closed doors (and we have to remember this) I'm worried that the team is trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing.
I will reiterate a point I made earlier. Simplify it. Low five between Price and Subban is exclusive of the other 20 players. Not a team celebration. Nothing further here.

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02-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I will reiterate a point I made earlier. Simplify it. Low five between Price and Subban is exclusive of the other 20 players. Not a team celebration. Nothing further here.
Like I said, if they ban it that's fine.

I'm just talking about how they're treating PK from a broader perspective.

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02-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I will reiterate a point I made earlier. Simplify it. Low five between Price and Subban is exclusive of the other 20 players. Not a team celebration. Nothing further here.
So when players go out for the three stars, that should be considered as selfish, right? I think the whole team should come out of the tunnel together. After all, there is no one above the team, right?

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02-01-2013, 10:28 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Mandala View Post
I guess it comes down to


do we want a short flashy career a la Ovechkin with tons of highlights but alas no team success?

or

do we want Subban to be more a team player a la Crosby and hopefully some more team success?

Sure in the short term, for fans it is much more fun to watch Subban do high five, low five, yapping, etc. But I would say, the long term goal should be to win a Stanley Cup or at least have a legit chance for one. Subban has all the tools to become the next general at defense.
Not good to use "highlights" to determine whether a player is more team-oriented that the other. Crosby had lots of veteran leadership to help him and the rest of the followers out during that Cup run.
And how does Crosby not have a ton of highlights?

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02-01-2013, 10:30 PM
  #333
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I say triple low five if we win the cup!

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02-01-2013, 10:36 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
So when players go out for the three stars, that should be considered as selfish, right? I think the whole team should come out of the tunnel together. After all, there is no one above the team, right?
The "three stars" are a recognition of a player's play for the game by outsiders, either the media or the fans. The skate out is more of a two-way thank you than a celebration per se.

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02-01-2013, 10:39 PM
  #335
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It's not a big deal and I'm sure PK thinks so too. He'll find other ways to be PK, don't you guys worry.

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02-01-2013, 10:41 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
False Dilemma

Definition:
A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator.
Putting issues or opinions into "black or white" terms is a common instance of this fallacy.
Guess you didn't read my disclaimer about them being extremes, but the point is that in Therrien's eyes, these are what the two options are closer to and I for one agree with him.

For all you complaining about how there's no flash in the NHL, I seriously don't know which league you watch. Enjoy the superbowl. Talk about overrated flash!

Habs minus the triple low 5 will be jusssst fine to the fans AND it just might help things. Therrien wants it that way, he's the coach. He earned us some short term respect. Stop crying about how PK has lost his personality outlet. He'll still celebrate after a goal. (His or a teammate's.)

Carey Price says "Just chill."

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02-01-2013, 10:45 PM
  #337
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This is stupid and pointless. I pretty much looked forward to it after the home games, and personally I'm gonna miss it.

But hey, if they keep winning, I'll be fine with the good ol cliche "stick raise" anyway.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:47 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
So when players go out for the three stars, that should be considered as selfish, right? I think the whole team should come out of the tunnel together. After all, there is no one above the team, right?
I never said I agreed. I'm just providing what I believe to be the simplest and most likely explanation.

Honestly, for me, there is a line between a spontaneous celebration and a contrived and choreographed exhibition. Keep it short and keep it real.

The antithesis of spontaneity is the midfield prayer meeting like you see in the NFL. ****** I hate that.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:54 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Guess you didn't read my disclaimer about them being extremes, but the point is that in Therrien's eyes, these are what the two options are closer to and I for one agree with him.

For all you complaining about how there's no flash in the NHL, I seriously don't know which league you watch. Enjoy the superbowl. Talk about overrated flash!

Habs minus the triple low 5 will be jusssst fine to the fans AND it just might help things. Therrien wants it that way, he's the coach. He earned us some short term respect. Stop crying about how PK has lost his personality outlet. He'll still celebrate after a goal. (His or a teammate's.)

Carey Price says "Just chill."
Ha, in the NFL, the triple low five would probably be penalized for group celebration. The Redskins' "Fun Bunch" was banned a LONG time ago because Don Shula and Tex Schramm weren't too happy with it.

Then came T.O, and another round of celebration nerfing. Now you get little dances, spikes, Arian Foster's "bow", and Aaron Rodger discount double check to add to the generic spike or throw the ball into the stands.

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:07 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I will reiterate a point I made earlier. Simplify it. Low five between Price and Subban is exclusive of the other 20 players. Not a team celebration. Nothing further here.
Are you serious?

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:08 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
While it's true we don't know what's going on behind closed doors (and we have to remember this) I'm worried that the team is trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing.
What I'm worried about is that Therrien and Bergevin have never actually seen how PK behaves in the locker room. All they can be going off is the word of some players.

Now, it's possible PK is a poison. I don't know.

It's also possible that Subban occupies a lot of space and that it bothers some veterans in the room. It's possible that this is a case of those veterans needing to get over themselves.

Or maybe it's something else entirely.

But if I were Bergevin and Therrien, I'd want to see it for myself before acting on it.

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02-01-2013, 11:11 PM
  #342
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If PK goes pointless this weekend I'm really not looking forward to all the posts complaining about how Bergevin/Therrien ruined him.

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02-01-2013, 11:12 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
It's not a big deal and I'm sure PK thinks so too. He'll find other ways to be PK, don't you guys worry.
It seems that they don't want PK to be PK actually so those other ways will also get shut down.

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #344
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Are you serious?
Duh. A coach who is preaching a cultish team behavior doesn't like exclusive behavior? This is not my agenda...

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:16 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think people are reading a little too much into the PK thing actually.

I see nothing wrong.

I was all for a long term deal now. I made this very clear before. But, the only intelligent and realistic conclusion I was able to come up with on the insisting of a low cap bridge deal was that management doesn't want to put PK in a pressure position.
I think they want to take a step back with PK because they identified some flaws, on the ice. They don't want to put him on the ice for 25min as #1. They rather him play as a 2nd pairing, perfect his things, and dominate weaker opponents. If all goes well, then he'll get more responsibilities.
But if you paid PK 5M right away, there's no way you could make him play as a back up role.
I think the reason they insisted on this deal was to protect him from unnecessary pressure. I mean, nothing else makes sense really. I don't buy this financial philosophy BS (Bergevin has never been a GM, and in Chicago they had no problem with giving big deals after their ELC), I just don't think they want to publicly say they want to protect PK.


I think the same thing is going on with the triple low five. Michel Therrien worked in the media over here. He knows exactly the criticism PK gets. He can see his ex-colleagues talk crap about PK. Say this or that. I mean really, it seems the media was on a mission to completely discredit PK. I'm sure he's heard some of them (perhaps behind the cameras, or maybe even in front, I just don't remember) talk about this triple low five. I believe he wants to stop all bad press going PK's way, and simply not give any ammo to this crazy media here.
So again, I think it goes back to protecting his best asset. I don't buy this ''we want to be modest'' crap, doesn't make any sense, otherwise stop all fist pumps after scoring too, or screaming. Doesn't add up.

I think this is all about taking away, little by little, the bad press PK has been getting, and changing the image of this over the top flamboyant kid, to a more mature, strong, reliable, top NHL Dman.
Most intelligent post I've seen in days....

The first thing I said (in another thread) after he signed was:

The first thing I'd like to see disappear is that low 5 celebration. It's great to have enthusiasm, but lets try to act like you've won a game before.

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02-01-2013, 11:23 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
If PK goes pointless this weekend I'm really not looking forward to all the posts complaining about how Bergevin/Therrien ruined him.

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02-01-2013, 11:28 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
If PK goes pointless this weekend I'm really not looking forward to all the posts complaining about how Bergevin/Therrien ruined him.
If the team goes into any kind of extended losing streak we'll hear all about how it's PK's fault. He'd better pray to God that we win our first few games with him in the lineup.

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:29 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I can be absolutely wrong, but I have a different view of the matter.
It falls in line with the reasoning behind insisting on a short term/low cash contract they signed PK to.

To me, the bridge deal made no sense whatsoever based on talent and potential. Everybody here can pretty much agree that PK is a very good young player, and that he will remain at the very least good with the potential of being excellent. So I have a hard time believing management doesn't see it that way either.
So, if we look at that only, bridge contract makes no sense. Might as well lock him up now for a smaller cap as we know he's a good player, arguably our best.

If we go by what PK said, we also know that Bergevin apparently didn't disagree with the comparable Meehan brought forth. That means they agreed on the value of PK.

If we also consider what PK said about pressure, that they talked about the pressure but PK doesn't feel he can have even more pressure than in the two years he played here, then we know they want to be careful with how they use PK.

That small contract then starts to make sense. They actually want to take their time with PK. Not necessarily put him in the toughest situations right off the bat, let him get comfortable and absolutely dominate weaker opposition. You can't put a player on a 2nd pairing, or even 3rd, but pay him 5M. Also, at that high price, the slightest cold streak and the media would be all over PK.

So I think the idea behind really sticking with a small term contract was to somewhat protect PK and take a step back so they can take two forward. Take the time with him, give him easier minutes, perfect his game, make him dominate.



I think this 3-low five ban follows this train of thought. Michel Therrien worked in the media for quite a bit of time. He knows exactly what the media thinks of PK for having been there behind the scene, where these so called analysts actually say what they think. I think management is just trying to change the image of PK, this over the top flamboyancy. I believe they want him to be more low key and focus on the game more, be on the highlight reel because of the plays you made, not the celebration or trash talk.

So I think, as with the bridge contract, they're actually trying to protect their asset.

That's my take. But, as I said, I can be completely wrong and we might have two bozos running the show.
that would definitely be the "best case scenario"...

but then, the question that comes up is: Why go public with it in a press conference?

if MT is media saavy, then he'd have to know that going public about the triple-low-5 ban would reflect negatively on Subban (essentially calling it out as an excessive/individualistic antic), at a time where there is a swirling media vibe around the young player AND at a time when he's coming off of a hold-out situation.

why not just make the decision internally, and if/when the media starts asking questions (which would happen post game), downplay it and easily move on to another immediate subject (i.e "tonight's win".)

by bringing up the ban in a press conference, on a non-game day, while the kid is still the #1 topic b/c he just signed and hasn't played yet, MT is either media-blind, or, more likely, knew exactly what he was doing...

and the reaction right here to the announcement says it all... skepticism about how the team views him.

so if you're right, and MT is media saavy, then the decision pretty much reaffirms that he/MB are trying to win some power perceived power stuggle and "put the player in his place".

if you're wrong, MT made a pretty silly media blunder, which then brings up the question of wether he actually did mature since his first stint, or is he just as overly emotional and stubborn as he was when we last fired him.


either way, not a good sign imo... should have just kept it internal.


I want badly for this new leadership to be the solution to our 20 year problem, and some signs are good... but the way they are handling this situation is pointing to a very dubious mentality... it's really not that hard. Collect talent, manage it well, make the most of every asset...

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:31 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If the team goes into any kind of extended losing streak we'll hear all about how it's PK's fault. He'd better pray to God that we win our first few games with him in the lineup.
That's a good start.

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02-02-2013, 12:33 AM
  #350
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I guess that habs management wants to have a more professional image throughout the league. I wouldn't care if they would leave the triple low five and I don't care if they take it out.

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