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Game #8: vs Phoenix, 2.01 (7:30 PM, Fox Sports Southwest Plus, 1310 AM, 104.1 FM)

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:12 PM
  #451
BigG44
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Oh yeah ... one thing I forgot to mention. Trading Neal for a top defender was still the right move IMO. They just failed to actually get the right guy. Their motives were good and honestly made sense, but the execution obviously sucked. Should GMJN get fired, that'll be one of the better justifications for the move.

I still think he's done some things well, and I've mostly liked the direction he's steering the team. He just always hasn't executed the moves perfectly. The thing that's tough for me to decide is do you give the rookie some leash to hang himself (liked you want an NHL team do on the damn ice) because he really does seem to have the makings of a good (potentially great) GM or is Dallas just the place where he makes his mistakes and he goes on to be a solid GM somewhere else?

I still feel like he's the right guy.

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02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #452
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Dillon looks awesome ... battle scars baby!


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02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by FrailSwan View Post
I gotta say, Roussel looked impressive in his debut. Oleksiak looked solid. Started getting a bit rough near the end. Too bad he didn't do that earlier in the game.

The biggest thing I noticed was Goligoski. He looked even worse in person. He is definitely not worth 4.6 million. More like 2 million. He's a turnover machine and can't get get a rush going.
It's such a stark contast. I've seen Goose twice in person, once in Detroit in 2011 and once in Buffalo in 2012. He looked great both those times, he was confident with and without the puck, generated offense and an excellent powerplay quarterback.

He's none of that now.

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02-01-2013, 11:16 PM
  #454
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That doesn't make any sense.

"3+" to 3 is needlessly confusing to an observer looking at a boxscore.
It's incredibly simple. It's an advantage tie, without a goal being scored.

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02-01-2013, 11:19 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
They took a gamble and loss. It sucks that it was on such a huge scale. Dallas can't let a mistake influence their decision to play him as a shutdown, top defender. Time to look for the next candidate to be a #1/#2, and luckily they have some worthy candidates in the lineup tonight. Hopefully they finally find that guy.
I agree, I'm just saying I don't see it happening yet. They lost the trade and then compounded the mistake by paying him too much. It also doesn't seem to be in this coaching staff's operating procedures to make a whole lot of personnel decisions based strictly on play.

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02-01-2013, 11:21 PM
  #456
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I missed the thread guys, but I caught 2/3 of the game (I'm moving tomorrow and had to pack crap). Eakin has been incredible. Dillon and Rousell looked great too.

What's the general opinion on Oleksiak? I liked what I saw.

I'm listening to Dillon on the post game right now. Really like his personality.

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02-01-2013, 11:22 PM
  #457
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Yeah ... Goligoski ... in Pittsburgh. And plenty of other offensive D that are NOT playing the tough minutes at ES.
Playing 15 minutes? That was the entire statement.

Goligoski played an average of 18 min in his first full season and was playing 21 min-22 min when he got traded and played an average of 26 min in Dallas putting on a good show, btw. These are 2nd pairing minutes.

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I think you're mistaking me not flying off the handle as being OK with how Goli is playing or loving his contract.
I am not flying off the handle vis-a-vis Goose either. I am fully aware and acknowledge the tough minutes he plays, but I don't see how his pedestrian PP performance has anything to do with that. He needs to be creative and QB the PP much better and for goodness sakes, has to find better shot selection. That's what we picked him up for.

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His contract is pretty standard for the points he's put up.
Only when he puts them up consistently.


Last edited by StarsFan74: 02-01-2013 at 11:40 PM. Reason: Forgot to add "in Dallas" to 26 min.
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02-01-2013, 11:26 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I agree, I'm just saying I don't see it happening yet. They lost the trade and then compounded the mistake by paying him too much. It also doesn't seem to be in this coaching staff's operating procedures to make a whole lot of personnel decisions based strictly on play.
I'm trying to find more positives lately.

Positive for me ... if Gulutzan keeps making decisions like that, he'll be gone because Dallas is clearly not going to make the playoffs playing poor defense. If GM Joe doesn't make the right decision to move on from Gulutzan should that scenario play out, he's gone too.

It's a win-win now...

I'm choosing to have faith in Gaglardi until proven otherwise because choosing to have faith in Gulutzan is a bit hard to stomach right now. So .... the coach changes his ways or he's gone. I can live with it in this transition year.

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02-01-2013, 11:27 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Oh yeah ... one thing I forgot to mention. Trading Neal for a top defender was still the right move IMO. They just failed to actually get the right guy. Their motives were good and honestly made sense, but the execution obviously sucked. Should GMJN get fired, that'll be one of the better justifications for the move.

I still think he's done some things well, and I've mostly liked the direction he's steering the team. He just always hasn't executed the moves perfectly. The thing that's tough for me to decide is do you give the rookie some leash to hang himself (liked you want an NHL team do on the damn ice) because he really does seem to have the makings of a good (potentially great) GM or is Dallas just the place where he makes his mistakes and he goes on to be a solid GM somewhere else?

I still feel like he's the right guy.
Trading Neal for a top defender would have been the right move. The more you look back on that trade the more odd it seems. With rumblings from around the league that other GMs didn't know Neal was on the block it just looks worse and worse.

To add insult to injury they were actually able to make something out of Niskanen, more or less proving that the Stars aren't great at handling defensemen and that Pittsburgh's defensive structure and team philosophy can make a lesser defenseman look better than he would on a lot of other teams.

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02-01-2013, 11:43 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Trading Neal for a top defender would have been the right move. The more you look back on that trade the more odd it seems. With rumblings from around the league that other GMs didn't know Neal was on the block it just looks worse and worse.
I still wonder whom we could have got. There were not many defensemen out there at that time who were available. Bogosian could've been had, but I believe he was either injured at that time or struggling greatly.

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To add insult to injury they were actually able to make something out of Niskanen, more or less proving that the Stars aren't great at handling defensemen and that Pittsburgh's defensive structure and team philosophy can make a lesser defenseman look better than he would on a lot of other teams.
I think the Niskanen part is what stings more for me.

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02-01-2013, 11:49 PM
  #461
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Bogosian was the target I wanted. It's a shame he wasn't shopped. We could possibly be in a completely different situation had he been.

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02-01-2013, 11:50 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Playing 15 minutes? That was the entire statement.

Goligoski played an average of 18 min in his first full season and was playing 21 min-22 min when he got traded and played an average of 26 min putting on a good show, btw. These are 2nd pairing minutes.

I am not flying off the handle vis-a-vis Goose either. I am fully aware and acknowledge the tough minutes he plays, but I don't see how his pedestrian PP performance has anything to do with that. He needs to be creative and QB the PP much better and for goodness sakes, has to find better shot selection. That's what we picked him up for.

Only when he puts them up consistently.
15 minutes is an arbitrary number that you threw out. If he's still getting PP time, he'd easily play more than that. Again, I've only been speaking about a realistic but still hypothetical situation about where he could/should fit in the team. You're treating that like I stated a fact, and you shouldn't.

He can be a top PP option that just isn't overexposed at ES. Will he? I agree with glovesave that entirely depends on a coach that I don't have much confidence in doing the right thing. It's pretty obvious that confidence is a major issue right now for the player, and it's impossible to say it will or won't return.

I didn't say you were flying off the handle, but you do seem to be reacting to me not being enraged to the situation.

Whether you want it to be true or not, he got a fair contract that he's just not living up to. As far as consistency goes ... that's all he's been at producing points. Even in this short season where he's been terrible, he's close to his career average, and he'll like finish right around that average between 0.40 and 0.55 points a game.

Defensemen contracts are more out of hand than any other position. I don't like $7 million goalies, but at least they have a true win or lose impact over the game. Correctly pointing out that Goli's deal is pretty standard for the type of player he was when he signed it is far from an endorsement of his current play, and I think that's where you might be getting confused about what I've said. If your defensive D are making $3.5 plus, the offensive D are going to be making significantly more.

Putting an exact number on where that should be is tough considering those that have hit free agency have been signing long back diving contracts. They are invaluable. On a short term deal, he's around where'd you'd expect. Now he just needs to hopefully regain his confidence and live up to it.

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02-01-2013, 11:53 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Trading Neal for a top defender would have been the right move. The more you look back on that trade the more odd it seems. With rumblings from around the league that other GMs didn't know Neal was on the block it just looks worse and worse.

To add insult to injury they were actually able to make something out of Niskanen, more or less proving that the Stars aren't great at handling defensemen and that Pittsburgh's defensive structure and team philosophy can make a lesser defenseman look better than he would on a lot of other teams.
Again ... we agree. You just stated it a bit differently. The point is, they had the right idea that Neal was the piece they that could actually land the player they needed. They didn't do the right deal though.

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02-02-2013, 12:03 AM
  #464
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Let me try one last way to put it.

Your options were to sign Goligoski to a similar contract or lose him this coming season for nothing. Like him or not, and right now I'm not his biggest fan, you're not going to lose the asset you mistakenly acquired for James Neal for nothing.

Let's say you play hard ball, he goes to arbitration last summer, and he probably gets close to the $4.2 million he's earning this year anyway. He's coming off of $2.75 million, and his agent is going to show that he's you're top scoring D since he's been on the team, and you're playing him like a Top 2 defender. Probably best case scenario you're paying him $3.5 on a 1 year deal, but I'd guess it's closer to $4 slightly.

Now ... this season plays out like is right now. He's lost some money in free agency for sure because of his play, but you're going to be forced to fight in free agency to keep him. You know there are limited assets, and most teams are going to jump at a 27 year old offensive D even after a rough year. More than likely, they'll blame his play on your crappy team and still offer him major money.

It's a situation you can't win. His current contract isn't the issue. His current play is, and that should be something a good coaching staff can help him overcome. Do we have that in Dallas? That's a legitimate concern.

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02-02-2013, 12:09 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by StarsCaptainOU View Post
Why does Robidas always try to act tough?

I loved when Ruutu tuned him up a few years ago.
Speaking of Ruutu..what the heck happened to him? I don't think he's playing anywhere.

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02-02-2013, 12:12 AM
  #466
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Speaking of Ruutu..what the heck happened to him? I don't think he's playing anywhere.
I don't remember the situation you are talking about so it could be one of two guys.

Jarkko Ruutu returned to Finland, and he's playing for Jokerit, the same team as Dallas prospect Esa Lindell.

Tuomo Ruutu re-signed with the Carolina Hurricanes, but he injured himself while playing during the lockout. I think I remember hearing he wasn't returning to action until May.

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02-02-2013, 12:14 AM
  #467
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
15 minutes is an arbitrary number that you threw out. If he's still getting PP time, he'd easily play more than that.
That number is based on a somewhat acceptable 3rd pairing d-man minutes. For him to make that jump to 21-22 min, the team has to be getting a lot of PPs.

Quote:
Again, I've only been speaking about a realistic but still hypothetical situation about where he could/should fit in the team. You're treating that like I stated a fact, and you shouldn't.
Accepted.

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He can be a top PP option that just isn't overexposed at ES. Will he? I agree with glovesave that entirely depends on a coach that I don't have much confidence in doing the right thing. It's pretty obvious that confidence is a major issue right now for the player, and it's impossible to say it will or won't return.
Good points made. I will say that his PP game isn't that great either and whether confidence is an issue or whether the fact that he never really did have that kind of creativity we see from OFDs is hard for me to tell.

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I didn't say you were flying off the handle, but you do seem to be reacting to me not being enraged to the situation.
I didn't imply that either. I am not reacting to your not being angry, but I do disagree on this...

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Whether you want it to be true or not, he got a fair contract that he's just not living up to. As far as consistency goes ... that's all he's been at producing points. Even in this short season where he's been terrible, he's close to his career average, and he'll like finish right around that average between 0.40 and 0.55 points a game.
...that his contract is by any means "fair." I am of the belief that we did overpay by about $0.5m/year, but we really had no choice. We'll have to disagree on this.

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Defensemen contracts are more out of hand than any other position. I don't like $7 million goalies, but at least they have a true win or lose impact over the game. Correctly pointing out that Goli's deal is pretty standard for the type of player he was when he signed it is far from an endorsement of his current play, and I think that's where you might be getting confused about what I've said. If you're defensive D are making $3.5 plus, the offensive D are going to be making significantly more.
Ideally, yes...but situations do vary. "Oh No!" Corvo has never made that $4m+ mark because of obvious defensive flaws in his game.

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Putting an exact number on where that should be is tough considering those that have hit free agency have been signing long back diving contracts. They are invaluable. On a short term deal, he's around where'd you'd expect. Now he just needs to hopefully regain his confidence and live up to it.
I think I already clarified that I expected his cap-hit to be in the $4.0-4.1m range , and I hope it's just a confidence issue because I am afraid it's probably beyond that, as in not possessing a creative enough game to be a reliable PPQB.

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02-02-2013, 12:22 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
That number is based on a somewhat acceptable 3rd pairing d-man minutes. For him to make that jump to 21-22 min, the team has to be getting a lot of PPs.



Accepted.



Good points made. I will say that his PP game isn't that great either and whether confidence is an issue or whether the fact that he never really did have that kind of creativity we see from OFDs is hard for me to tell.



I didn't imply that either. I am not reacting to your not being angry, but I do disagree on this...



...that his contract is by any means "fair." I am of the belief that we did overpay by about $0.5m/year, but we really had no choice. We'll have to disagree on this.



Ideally, yes...but situations do vary. "Oh No!" Corvo has never made that $4m+ mark because of obvious defensive flaws in his game.



I think I already clarified that I expected his cap-hit to be in the $4.0-4.1m range , and I hope it's just a confidence issue because I am afraid it's probably beyond that, as in not possessing a creative enough game to be a reliable PPQB.
What's the difference between a 4 and a 4.5mil defenseman?

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02-02-2013, 12:29 AM
  #469
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I don't remember the situation you are talking about so it could be one of two guys.

Jarkko Ruutu returned to Finland, and he's playing for Jokerit, the same team as Dallas prospect Esa Lindell.

Tuomo Ruutu re-signed with the Carolina Hurricanes, but he injured himself while playing during the lockout. I think I remember hearing he wasn't returning to action until May.
Thanks..Tuomo. I remembered I hadn't heard his name this season and didn't remember if he'd re-signed. Just looked on hockeydb and saw he hadn't played this season anywhere. Injury is the answer.

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02-02-2013, 12:30 AM
  #470
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I don't remember the situation you are talking about so it could be one of two guys.

Jarkko Ruutu returned to Finland, and he's playing for Jokerit, the same team as Dallas prospect Esa Lindell.

Tuomo Ruutu re-signed with the Carolina Hurricanes, but he injured himself while playing during the lockout. I think I remember hearing he wasn't returning to action until May.
Jarkko

It was during his time in Pitt. There was a bit of a crowd around the net and Robidas paired up with Ruutu and did his usual shoving and running of the mouth. Ruutu just let him do his thing for a minute and then eventually just popped him about 3-4 times in the face and Robidas did nothing but fall to the ice.

I'm sure the video is on hockeyfights or youtube.

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02-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #471
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Robidas makes Morrow appear to be a much better player. Robidas vs. Hanzel...did anyone think that would end well? The fall down in Hanzel's second goal was pathetically hilarious.

Roussel can stay. Hustle, grit, faceoffs, physicality, and decent hands. I want to see more but man does he make most of our bottom six look terrible. I'd love to see Vincour-Roussel-Garbutt sometime.

I didn't notice much of Olesiak and that's a good thing for a young defenseman.

It's early but are there any indications that Eakin can't be a 2nd line center? Right now I'm hoping Roy gets healthy and then traded because him stealing minutes from Eakin is not a good thing and I have no confidence that paying Roy 5 million for 4 or more years is a good investment with this injury issues. Let some other team take that chance. Free Eakin.

Ryder has a nasty, nasty shot.

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02-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #472
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What's the difference between a 4 and a 4.5mil defenseman?


I seriously have no idea. Now I honestly feel like I wasted my time.

$500K .....

Ehh ... it's fun though to think about. I always love talking contract numbers. Can't wait until next summer. Reilly Smith will be a fascinating debate up until the actual contract is signed. The burned year had some people pretty angry, but it could turn out to be benefit if it lands him a bridge deal.

This summer though ... with the retirement contracts off the table for younger players, it'll be interesting to see where guys slide in with AAV. I'm not too thrilled with the possibilities after seeing the Lupul and Zajac money. However, the Edler deal was a pleasant surprise.

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02-02-2013, 12:33 AM
  #473
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Thanks..Tuomo.
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Jarkko
Well now I'm more confused ....

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02-02-2013, 12:37 AM
  #474
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Well now I'm more confused ....
Haha. I should have been more clear originally. I saw the name Ruutu and realized I hadn't seen Tuomo playing or mentioned this season. So I asked. Unrelated to the stuff with Jarko.

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02-02-2013, 12:37 AM
  #475
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Mark's a funny guy:

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Mark Stepneski ‏@StarsInsideEdge

Antoine Roussel is now the highest goal scoring, French-born player to ever play for the Dallas Stars. Basically the French Mike Modano.
Stepneski might need a "Who are these guys?" avatar.

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