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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

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Old
02-02-2013, 12:56 AM
  #601
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
But only once top-5. And the NHL was one of two (or three!) pro leagues at the time.

I like all Noble brings, but he's not THAT special offensively. A poor man's Hooley.
I'm not saying he's a stud, but I was pleasantly surprised by his offensive resume.

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02-02-2013, 12:56 AM
  #602
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146. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Lester Patrick, D
147. Dwight - West Island Lions - Yvan Cournoyer, RW
148. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Bill Barber, LW
149. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Vladimir Konstantinov, D
150. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Harry Cameron, D
151. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - OTC until 11:01 AM

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02-02-2013, 12:59 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He was not known as a defensive player at all. Early in his career they used him as a PP specialist to limit the liability.
a few weeks ago, i was looking at who scored the most goals on PP or PK without any other type of goal.

early in his cournoyer, had a very high ratio of PP goals to ES goals.

16 of 18 in '66
20 of 25 in '67

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It's kind of crazy that hockey rights at that point in time were still partially based on ethnicity. I wish I still had the article, but I found a great magazine bit several pages long about Frank Boucher when I was researching his career. Nothing relevant to his performance on the ice, but lots of interesting stuff about the man and his life. Apparently he spoke like a Boston dock worker.

One thing I love about pre-war hockey is that so many of the characters are so colorful. I mean...Bill Cook fought in Siberia in the Russian civil war. Jaromir Jagr dressing up in drag doesn't really compare.
i am almost certain that claim was about georges boucher. his name was usually george in papers, though.


i am guessing cook was part of british empire's intervention, and not a red.


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02-02-2013, 01:01 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I know you've heard this before with some of your other picks, but you really may want to start checking last year's draft. Konstantinov wasn't taken until the early 8th round...you probably could have waited at least one round and maybe even two and still been pretty sure to get him.
Here's the problem I have....I don't know the game well from the early days and to me it's all subjective because it is extremely difficult to gauge the eras against each other. I try to put the game into context and I just can't wrap my head around the often scant information.

Take baseball, there's always been 93-95 mph fastball pitchers. There's always been slick infielders and speed on the base paths and HR's have been hit with records that stood for generations. There's always been wood bats and fairly early on, standardized baseballs.

In hockey it seems the environment and the gear play a major factor in the growth of the game and it's athletes. What used to be a 22 game schedule, in arenas that had variable quality in ice due to weather conditions and pre-Zambonis, has seemingly grown exponentially to its present state, and its athletes with it.

In other words, while I am totally fascinated, I have a more difficult time comparing and relating to a hockey player, as great as they were in their day, to those in the 06 (where there is far more reports and film, etc...), into the modern era.

I just have difficulty wrapping my head around this situation. We're talking about the pros and cons of Hooley Smith and Clint Benedict and Reg Noble in such a detailed and minute manner you'd think we were discussing a voluminous law brief. There just isn't that much detailed information available....to me it's almost like archeology.

With my picks, (and I have had some desirable wants from the 1930's on up but they seem to get picked right before me), I go with what I know, guys I've seen live or poured over ancient film on YouTube or read scouting reports or more subjective newspaper reports and magazines, etc.... I have a certain type of style I like and can see them in my head.

Whether Konstaninov went in the 8th round last year doesn't concern me. I like the guys style, he plays with an edge, he's efficient in his own end, a major contributor for championship teams. I would've loved Murphy to pair with Stevens and if I can get a decent PMD at a good value (IMO), then I'd probably drop Konstantinov to the second pairing. Right now the two of them together would be a lethal pairing, especially in the crease and slot areas.

With a Reg Noble, from scant information, you have a rep of a fairly tough guy, but who was 5'8" / 180 lb , which is even smaller than me. And while I know there are guys that small that have thrived, I still have a hard time seeing these guys, in the B&W photos with patched uniforms and wooden skates (I'm being facetious with the skates), going up against a buffed 6'2" / 215 lb Scott Stevens in contemporary equipment.

I am no neophyte but this ain't rocket science and how can we fairly judge?

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02-02-2013, 01:08 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
We're talking about the pros and cons of Hooley Smith and Clint Benedict and Reg Noble in such a detailed and minute manner you'd think we were discussing a voluminous law brief. There just isn't that much detailed information available....to me it's almost like archeology.
Yes, newbie. DIG, man, DIG! There is a lot of information in newspapers, history books, statistics, memoirs and internet searches.

The ATDs is about hockey history. There's a lot of info out there. No need to limit oneself to moderns. Look at each player relative to HIS era to see how important he was, what he brings to an all-time draft.

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I am no neophyte but this ain't rocket science...
It is indeed NOT a science. No set formula here. It's a lot of research, reflection, considerations and argument.

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02-02-2013, 01:12 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yar!

(haha, I actually forgot about that one)



Offensively, on a per-game level, I think Neely was almost as good as Middleton. Middleton maintaining that level for 300 more games is of course to his credit. In an ATD season this means you're probably looking at Neely missing 20-30% of his games and Middleton missing none.

Neely's playoff production, despite fewer games played, is a tad more impressive.

Neely obviously has the better physical game, and normally I wouldn't say that is particularly important in determining who the better player was, but Neely was a rare player in that he was very dominant physically and truly impacted the game.

The flipside is that Middleton was excellent defensively and had another legitimate impact on the score of the game - by causing fewer goals against. Neely was never known as a defensive player. All things being equal, defense trumps physicality.

Yeah, you took the guy because he was what your line needed, but as others have said, he should have waited a round, and you know what? if you missed out on him, it's not like there were no RW power forwards out there for your next pick.
What exactly is an ATD season? You have some kind of Sabremetrics tye of computer program? Another adjusted figures formula or logarithm? Or is this just some pontificated conjecture?

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02-02-2013, 01:19 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Yes, newbie. DIG, man, DIG! There is a lot of information in newspapers, history books, statistics, memoirs and internet searches.

The ATDs is about hockey history. There's a lot of info out there. No need to limit oneself to moderns. Look at each player relative to HIS era to see how important he was, what he brings to an all-time draft.


It is indeed NOT a science. No set formula here. It's a lot of research, reflection, considerations and argument.
Oh I do dig, (old newspaper articles, soviet hockey history boards, ancient hockey digests, etc....), I've wasted numerous hours in wee of mornings reading this stuff....hell, its almost 2:30 am and I have to be somewhere early tomorrow morning and I still have my skate in the afternoon....but I still have difficulty with the comparisons. The spectrum of the gains in this sport is huge as opposed to other sports IMO and the information is just not as prevalent.

I try to bring a guy who was important in his era to the all-time draft, but I still have to compare him to players in other eras. You've got 4, 5, 6 team leagues with 20 games schedules to a 30 team league with 82 game schedule, with bigger guys, better training methods and hi-tech gear.

Malkin v Noble.....really, how can you definitively say one is better than the other? The variables are many and widely disparite....

I have other defensemen that have different qualities, from different eras that I was musing over.....but I really like Konstantinov's game


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Old
02-02-2013, 01:22 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
What exactly is an ATD season? You have some kind of Sabremetrics tye of computer program? Another adjusted figures formula or logarithm? Or is this just some pontificated conjecture?
We have a playoffs in which everyone votes for winners until we have a champion. The regular season standings are also decided by a vote. So that is our "season". Yes, it's all conjecture, but we allow for a good deal of discussion and dissection after the draft is over.

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02-02-2013, 01:29 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Oh I do dig, (old newspaper articles, soviet hockey history boards, ancient hockey digests, etc....), I've wasted numerous hours in wee of mornings reading this stuff....hell, its almost 2:30 am and I have to be somewhere early tomorrow morning and I still have my skate in the afternoon....but I still have difficulty with the comparisons. The disparity of the gains in this sport is huge as opposed to other sports IMO and the information is just not as prevalent.
You are in the right place, Bubba. And don't worry about being overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed in my first ATD, and that was five years ago with a veteran as co-GM. The amount of new information we have accumulated since then is simply massive, and one needs a fairly voluminous knowledge of all the relevant players to make fine value judgments in this setting. It's good that you're feeling overwhelmed. If you weren't, I'd assume you weren't paying attention.

If you're interested, I'd be willing to discuss rough strategy with you and let you bounce pick ideas off of me. I'm not going to suggest who you should pick at any specific point in the draft, but I will tell you if I think the guy you're targeting doesn't belong at that point in the draft (which is what I think of Konstantinov, unfortunately). You've taken the hard way and jumped in without a co-GM, which is commendable, but perilous, and you've done well for yourself. Anyway, my offer is open, and I'd imagine seventies would be willing to correspond with you, as well, though I cannot speak for him.

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02-02-2013, 01:30 AM
  #610
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in the op the 152 th pick belongs to gmm but in reality it is my pick.

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02-02-2013, 01:35 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You are in the right place, Bubba. And don't worry about being overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed in my first ATD, and that was five years ago with a veteran as co-GM. The amount of new information we have accumulated since then is simply massive, and one needs a fairly voluminous knowledge of all the relevant players to make fine value judgments in this setting. It's good that you're feeling overwhelmed. If you weren't, I'd assume you weren't paying attention.

If you're interested, I'd be willing to discuss rough strategy with you and let you bounce pick ideas off of me. I'm not going to suggest who you should pick at any specific point in the draft, but I will tell you if I think the guy you're targeting doesn't belong at that point in the draft (which is what I think of Konstantinov, unfortunately). You've taken the hard way and jumped in without a co-GM, which is commendable, but perilous, and you've done well for yourself. Anyway, my offer is open, and I'd imagine seventies would be willing to correspond with you, as well, though I cannot speak for him.
I may just take you up on it....

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02-02-2013, 02:02 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
I just have difficulty wrapping my head around this situation. We're talking about the pros and cons of Hooley Smith and Clint Benedict and Reg Noble in such a detailed and minute manner you'd think we were discussing a voluminous law brief. There just isn't that much detailed information available....to me it's almost like archeology.
Oh, that info's definitely there. Much of it has already been dug up and that's the basis of the discussions we're now having. It must be overwhelming. You're late to the party and playing catch up.

Quote:
With a Reg Noble, from scant information, you have a rep of a fairly tough guy, but who was 5'8" / 180 lb , which is even smaller than me. And while I know there are guys that small that have thrived, I still have a hard time seeing these guys, in the B&W photos with patched uniforms and wooden skates (I'm being facetious with the skates), going up against a buffed 6'2" / 215 lb Scott Stevens in contemporary equipment.
Size of players cannot be viewed as a constant across eras. Noble was a tad below average for his time, but that translates to 6'0" today, not the midget that he'd be as a 5'8" player in the modern game.

when I say you could have done better on a pick, I don't just mean some 1930s guy. There are plenty that you'd have seen yourself too.

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I'd imagine seventies would be willing to correspond with you, as well,.
always.

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02-02-2013, 02:53 AM
  #613
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in the op the 152 th pick belongs to gmm but in reality it is my pick.
I guess if I want to know what's going on before my upcoming pick, I have to fix this small mess.

It would be a lot easier if anyone updating the OP would process trades in full and not just the first pick involved.

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
146. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Lester Patrick, D
147. Dwight - West Island Lions - Yvan Cournoyer, RW
148. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Bill Barber, LW
149. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Vladimir Konstantinov, D
150. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Harry Cameron, D
151. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - OTC until 11:01 AM
Thank you


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Old
02-02-2013, 03:06 AM
  #614
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nik, I hope you can make a really good profile of Harry Cameron. I'm far from an expert on him, but for whatever reason, from the contemporary sources I've read, he just doesn't seem to have the star power to match his offensive contributions.

Nothing wrong with picking him here though.

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02-02-2013, 03:38 AM
  #615
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Viking Maniacs selects Bob Gainey.

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02-02-2013, 04:31 AM
  #616
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I think Mr.Bugg's Soviet gong show of a team last year may have turned some GM's off from drafting them, but Maltsev is legitimately knocking on the top 100 door IMO.
I would agree with. A very comlete hockey player that brings a lot offensively.

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
With Pick 144 of the 2013 ATD the Baltimore Blades proudly select Defenseman Jan Suchy



Known as the European Bobby Orr Suchy should play well with Horton and give the Blades a good 2-way 1st pairing.

Next has been pmed.
He didn't fully fit the team we want to build, but Jan Suchy is a s good as any defenceman left. A fantastic peak from 1968-to-1971. I think I've made a very biography on him last year, check it out.

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almost took Brewer but his bad attitude finally got the best of me and I traded the pick away.Not to mention his ridiculous penalties which can be costly.

That being said , he is a good defenseman there.
I love Carl Brewer, a fantastic defenceman that was his team #1 defenceman for multiple Cup wins. There's not a lot of those defenceman remaining. I would love to see a good biography on him.

I don't think Brewer have any attitude problem, but he need the right coach. He clashed with a coach that had more than one feud with his star player, including the Big M. I see Brewer as a good team player.

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Yvan Cournoyer, RW

He's fallen far enough.
early 100's is far too early for Yvan Cournoyer. Fantastic hockey player who can burn you with his speed. Elite on the PP, but this placement is far more accurate than any I've saw of Cournoyer in the past. I still have a few winger better than him on my list.

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02-02-2013, 07:26 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Malkin v Noble.....really, how can you definitively say one is better than the other? The variables are many and widely disparite....
unlike many or most of members of ATD, i don't think there is any way to say which is better. i don't see any reason to think of this sort of ranking of players from different eras and conditions as if it is not a form of guesswork.

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nik, I hope you can make a really good profile of Harry Cameron. I'm far from an expert on him, but for whatever reason, from the contemporary sources I've read, he just doesn't seem to have the star power to match his offensive contributions.

Nothing wrong with picking him here though.
cameron played in toronto more than anywhere, but toronto papers are not as available on google, and i have no other good contemporary sources, so i would not be able to make a comprehensive bio.

another problem is that the most commonly available paper from toronto, toronto world, usually has much smaller articles on hockey than ottawa citizen and montreal gazette.

i agree that cameron's reputation does not seem to match his stats, even though he was often called a star. he was the highest paid player of 1918 arenas ($900), though, and was offered a big transfer fee/salary to go to PCHA in 1915 ($1600 plus travel expenses).

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02-02-2013, 08:09 AM
  #618
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I don't think Brewer have any attitude problem, but he need the right coach. He clashed with a coach that had more than one feud with his star player, including the Big M. I see Brewer as a good team player.
Brewer was known as a highly intelligent man, who often thought too much and had too much nervous energy for his own good. He always said, himself, that it was not conflict with his coach that caused him to leave professional hockey, but rather dissatisfaction with his existence and a desire to do something new. He also said that playing amateur hockey and player/coaching in Finland was the greatest decision he ever made, and of course he came back and played again for that same coach after he returned to the NHL.

It's a shame that Brewer didn't stay in the NHL because he'd probably be a hall of famer if he had, but it is what it is. I don't think coaching conflict was really his "problem". He was just a very complicated man for whom playing in the NHL was not everything. A lot like Ken Dryden in that way.

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02-02-2013, 08:13 AM
  #619
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I'm headed out for a while

I left a list with TDMM since he picks after me.

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02-02-2013, 09:40 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Brewer was known as a highly intelligent man, who often thought too much and had too much nervous energy for his own good. He always said, himself, that it was not conflict with his coach that caused him to leave professional hockey, but rather dissatisfaction with his existence and a desire to do something new. He also said that playing amateur hockey and player/coaching in Finland was the greatest decision he ever made, and of course he came back and played again for that same coach after he returned to the NHL.

It's a shame that Brewer didn't stay in the NHL because he'd probably be a hall of famer if he had, but it is what it is. I don't think coaching conflict was really his "problem". He was just a very complicated man for whom playing in the NHL was not everything. A lot like Ken Dryden in that way.
Interesting, well explain. And yes, no doubt Brewer is an HoF if he stay in the NHL from '66-to-'69

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02-02-2013, 09:46 AM
  #621
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I select Art Coulter , D


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02-02-2013, 09:58 AM
  #622
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I'm around, but will need some time to research and confer with my co-gm. Will probably be a couple of hours.

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02-02-2013, 10:04 AM
  #623
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Here's an old newspaper article describing Art Coulter as a speedy skater:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+chicago&hl=en

Quote:
Tall , husky and speedy , Art can tear down the rink goal-ward or double an enemy over the boards in the best Eddie Shore manner

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02-02-2013, 10:08 AM
  #624
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Seems like Coulter got chosen by the GMs in their all-star team , which is strange since he never made it higher than 2nd all-star team.This could be interesting food for thoughts:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+rangers&hl=en

Quote:
Coulter , last season was chosen by NHL managers for their all-star team.


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02-02-2013, 10:36 AM
  #625
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That probably just refers to him being on the second unit of the team.

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