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Old
02-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #51
TheJuxtaposer
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
One good playoff run and suddenly he's worth more then the guy who was just named youngest captain in NHL history, won the Calder, is only 19 years old, and a former 2nd overall pick?

I mean McDonagh was great sure, but before last years playoffs half of HF boards didn't even know his name, now he's apparently considered a god.

He and OEL have become so overrated because of one good showcasing of talent in the playoffs.

Its unfortunate because McDonagh particularly is a guy I want to like and want to see succeed, but this is just ridiculous.
Your bias is showing. Both OEL and McDonagh had stellar rookie seasons (and McDonagh had a flawless sophomore season). OEL literally worked his way up to being the Coyotes' #1 defenseman and playing 30 minutes a game by the end of the year, from being an AHL call-up the year before. McDonagh had a great rookie season playing solidly on the Rangers second pairing with Sauer before being forced into a top-2 role due to Staal's concussion and quickly becoming the Rangers' best defenseman.

These are two of the best young defensemen in the league. Each is only a tier down from the Pietrangelos and Karlssons of the new generation of defensemen.

You say overrated because you haven't seen them and therefore can't believe that they're as good as they are. As someone who has watched both extensively, they are elite players. Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to call Ryan McDonagh my #1 defenseman right now, and OEL is already a Norris caliber player.

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02-01-2013, 10:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
That's because of HF, not because of McDonagh. He had a fantastic rookie year.

He did have a great rookie year, but HF Boards has now went over board with it and built him up to be much more then he was/is.

He only had 30 odd points last year, decent for a rookie but not mind blowing. And while yes +25 is also impressive, it was on a dominant Rangers team. He was only +2 in the playoffs with 4 points and now so far this year he's -4 with 0 points in 7 games.

Over his last 27 games he's had 4 points and is -2. Now I know stats aren't everything and you have to look at how he plays, and he generally did play pretty good during the playoffs, but those stats don't scream Landeskog type value. He certainly looks to have come back to earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post

You say overrated because you haven't seen them and therefore can't believe that they're as good as they are. As someone who has watched both extensively, they are elite players. Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to call Ryan McDonagh my #1 defenseman right now, and OEL is already a Norris caliber player.
I've seen them both play plenty of times. I was a big fan of both of these guys well before they exploded on HF boards(Especially McDonagh) but the simple truth is at least for McDonagh that HF boards has turned him into something he's not. He's great defensively and can shut down a teams top line, but his offensive game isn't that great, and he is still prone to the usual mistakes associated with a young Dman.

Now OEL on the other hand I think the overhype is somewhat justified. He really did have a truly remarkable year last year, but the biggest part I question about it all, is how good would OEL have done if he were on a team that didn't have such a strong and effective Defensive system like Phoenix. Would he have looked as good on a team like Philly. And in my opinion the answer is no. Even McDonagh I believe benefited a little from being surrounded with very good Defenseman and a world class goalie behind him.


Last edited by Pierce Hawthorne: 02-01-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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Old
02-01-2013, 10:33 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Yup its official, McDonagh is probably the most overrated player on HF Boards....

WOW
A very strong case could be made that last year McDonagh was one of the best defensemen in the league. I think it's pretty fair for Rangers fans to be saying "no ****ing way".

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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Over his last 27 games he's had 4 points and is -2. Now I know stats aren't everything and you have to look at how he plays, and he generally did play pretty good during the playoffs, but those stats don't scream Landeskog type value. He certainly looks to have come back to earth.
Landeskog's stats of late haven't screamed "Landeskog type value".

There's a lot of players who aren't exactly experiencing killer starts to the season. Don't hold that against their careers.

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02-01-2013, 10:34 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
He did have a great rookie year, but HF Boards has now went over board with it and built him up to be much more then he was/is.

He only had 30 odd points last year, decent for a rookie but not mind blowing. And while yes +25 is also impressive, it was on a dominant Rangers team. He was only +2 in the playoffs with 4 points and now so far this year he's -4 with 0 points in 7 games.

Over his last 27 games he's had 4 points and is -2. Now I know stats aren't everything and you have to look at how he plays, and he generally did play pretty good during the playoffs, but those stats don't scream Landeskog type value. He certainly looks to have come back to earth.
If anything he's cooled off offensively, but he's just as dominant defensively as he always has been, and to be fair putting up points on his "dominant" team isn't exactly a picnic. If he doesn't have the fortune of being on the ice with our one line, he's pretty much screwed. He's had some great chances when he's with that line and I expect points to come soon.

McDonagh was closer to making the Rangers what they were last year than the other way around.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:45 PM
  #55
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I wanted Stepan over Anisimov in the Nash deal. Obviously that was a "no way."

How about Brassard + New York's 1st round pick back? Brassard fills Stepan's spot temporarily or permanently if he does well. Also NY gets to have its own pick again which is nice.

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02-01-2013, 10:56 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I wanted Stepan over Anisimov in the Nash deal. Obviously that was a "no way."

How about Brassard + New York's 1st round pick back? Brassard fills Stepan's spot temporarily or permanently if he does well. Also NY gets to have its own pick again which is nice.
...what?

Stepan's an improvement, but not that much of an improvement...

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02-01-2013, 10:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
...what?

Stepan's an improvement, but not that much of an improvement...
I haven't seen him much this year. Last year I could have sworn he was going to be the Ranger's best center in a year or two even over Richards.

Also I'm just spitballing obviously. It's banking on the Rangers and Stepan turning it around over Brassard and the Jackets getting lucky (hah!).

You probably are right, but it's not like we're going to see it happening anyways.

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02-01-2013, 11:05 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
From a neutral fan who's high on both players, Landeskog for McDonagh straight up is pretty fair.



We're talking about offense. Gaborik>>>Landeskog offensively last season. Then you make it sound like O'Reilly was just a product of Landeskog defensively when O'Reilly has been a Selke caliber defensive forward for two years before he ever got Landeskog. And secondly, are you kidding me? Daniel Winnik? The guy who has stone hands and scored 8 goals all last year? He if anything stunted O'Reilly's offensive game.
Yeah my point is that O'Reilly didn't have bad linemates either, they were pretty good. Winnik = Anisimov. And Steps was moved with Callahan later in the year. I think O'Reilly is worth more as an individual player, but he is without a contract and Stepan has 1 yr left at ELC, so I think Stepan's value is pretty equal to ROR's.

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02-01-2013, 11:08 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
One good playoff run and suddenly he's worth more then the guy who was just named youngest captain in NHL history, won the Calder, is only 19 years old, and a former 2nd overall pick?

I mean McDonagh was great sure, but before last years playoffs half of HF boards didn't even know his name, now he's apparently considered a god.

He and OEL have become so overrated because of one good showcasing of talent in the playoffs.

Its unfortunate because McDonagh particularly is a guy I want to like and want to see succeed, but this is just ridiculous.
Except McDonagh didn't make a name for himself in the playoffs. He had a dominant sophomore season, playing the toughest minutes in the NHL and doing exceptional in those. OEL too was dominant down the stretch, both have value far superior to Landeskog's.

You should tune into a Rangers game for once. West coast bias.

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02-01-2013, 11:12 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I wanted Stepan over Anisimov in the Nash deal. Obviously that was a "no way."

How about Brassard + New York's 1st round pick back? Brassard fills Stepan's spot temporarily or permanently if he does well. Also NY gets to have its own pick again which is nice.
Not a chance.

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02-01-2013, 11:25 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Yeah my point is that O'Reilly didn't have bad linemates either, they were pretty good. Winnik = Anisimov. And Steps was moved with Callahan later in the year. I think O'Reilly is worth more as an individual player, but he is without a contract and Stepan has 1 yr left at ELC, so I think Stepan's value is pretty equal to ROR's.
If you honestly think Winnik is as good as Anisimov, you must be actually buying in to his current goal-scoring pace.

But fine. Let's say that O'Reilly and Stepan did have equivalent linemates. O'Reilly outscored Stepan, and played Selke caliber defense. There is no way that Stepan can be considered the better player.

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02-01-2013, 11:50 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I wanted Stepan over Anisimov in the Nash deal. Obviously that was a "no way."

How about Brassard + New York's 1st round pick back? Brassard fills Stepan's spot temporarily or permanently if he does well. Also NY gets to have its own pick again which is nice.
Alright we get the pick back, so essentially Nash and Brassard for Dubinsky, Anisimov, Stepan, and Erixon.

Can't say I'm exactly loving it.

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02-02-2013, 04:20 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
If I had a nickle for every player who was "one of the best defensive forwards in the game," I could buy the Coyotes. O'Reilly's a good player. Until he shows that last season wasn't a fluke, he's a guy with two third line seasons and one second line season. That's not worth trading a guy like Stepan for, even BEFORE you take into account RO'R's insane salary demands for a second contract.
If you had a nickle for every player who finished ahead of O'Reilly in the Selke voting you'd have 65 cents. The next youngest player to finish ahead of him was 3 years older. He is elite defensively, and for his age he is exceptional.

I'm not sure why you put too much stock into his offensive production when he is such a young player and still developing. Stepan had a very good rookie season but two years ago he was playing in college, and I do not think we should hold that against him.

Given their similarities in offensive production and that O'Reilly is without a doubt elite defensively and on the forecheck he has more value. Even offensively you could argue that Stepan benefited a lot last year in terms of points when he was put with Gaborik for a while.

And unless you have some inside information you cannot state you know what his contract demands are. Subban held out and signed what is one of the better contracts in the league.

And again, I'm a Rangers fan but I think you are being too defensive in regards to Stepan. We are at least both in agreement that we hope Stepan continues to develop and shows some of his poise and vision we know he has in him.

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02-02-2013, 05:24 AM
  #64
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Stepan + Floridas 3rd rounder (2013) + one of Fogarty/Yogan for O´Reilly & a 6th/7th rounder (2014)

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02-02-2013, 08:09 AM
  #65
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How about the Rangers just admit they are not as good as they thought, so they keep Stepan, Kreider all their young NHL players and work with them to improve the team so maybe, along with a off-season move or two to add some depth, it makes them better next season and long term, if not sooner?

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02-02-2013, 09:31 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Except McDonagh didn't make a name for himself in the playoffs. He had a dominant sophomore season, playing the toughest minutes in the NHL and doing exceptional in those. OEL too was dominant down the stretch, both have value far superior to Landeskog's.

You should tune into a Rangers game for once. West coast bias.
Like I said, I've watched him multiple times, he didn't actually break out until playoffs. He was good during the regular season but most didn't take notice until the playoffs, and that's when he became overrated.

I live about as far East as possible, I watch more East Coast games then I do West Coast games, but nice try with the West Coast Bias. We all know its the East Coast that has the Bias.

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02-02-2013, 10:25 AM
  #67
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I would consider a Stazz-RoR for Mcdonagh-Stepan deal if I were Colorado actually. Think NYR would have to add a little (pick/non mega prospect), but I think it could definitely help more than hurt the Avs. But that is also why they did not call me back when I applied for the Asst. GM job.

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02-02-2013, 10:29 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
I would consider a Stazz-RoR for Mcdonagh-Stepan deal if I were Colorado actually. Think NYR would have to add a little (pick/non mega prospect), but I think it could definitely help more than hurt the Avs. But that is also why they did not call me back when I applied for the Asst. GM job.
I don't think NYR would go for that. Opens up a big hole on the blue line because you'd be dressing Bickel as your 6th D now.

Value wise, would NYR really be the one adding? Not sure, especially considering the cap hits of Statsny and ROR's eventual contract (and the fact that he's not even signed).

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02-02-2013, 10:36 AM
  #69
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I don't think NYR would go for that. Opens up a big hole on the blue line because you'd be dressing Bickel as your 6th D now.

Value wise, would NYR really be the one adding? Not sure, especially considering the cap hits of Statsny and ROR's eventual contract (and the fact that he's not even signed).
We'll throw in Obrien.

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02-02-2013, 12:23 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
How about the Rangers just admit they are not as good as they thought, so they keep Stepan, Kreider all their young NHL players and work with them to improve the team so maybe, along with a off-season move or two to add some depth, it makes them better next season and long term, if not sooner?
Blockbuster trade:

To CBJ
Stepan
3rd rounder to CBJ

To NYR
Derek Mackenzie
2nd rounder to RYR
The rights to Colton Gilles

Thoughts?

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Old
02-02-2013, 01:01 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Blockbuster trade:

To CBJ
Stepan
3rd rounder to CBJ

To NYR
Derek Mackenzie
2nd rounder to RYR
The rights to Colton Gilles

Thoughts?
Surely you jest....

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02-02-2013, 02:14 PM
  #72
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MacKenzie should be nowhere near the second line. Pick does nothing, Colton Gillies is dead weight and has negative value, why would we accept this? Normally Sather is the one fleecing you, not the other way around.

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02-02-2013, 02:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Stepan + Floridas 3rd rounder (2013) + one of Fogarty/Yogan for O´Reilly & a 6th/7th rounder (2014)
I am in the Stepan-is-not-that-much-different-than-ROR camp, plus the cap space issue makes Step a little more attractive.

Straight up deal makes more sense to me.

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Old
02-02-2013, 02:19 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
MacKenzie should be nowhere near the second line. Pick does nothing, Colton Gillies is dead weight and has negative value, why would we accept this? Normally Sather is the one fleecing you, not the other way around.
Did you actually respond to his proposal? At least the other guy realized he was being sarcastic.

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02-02-2013, 02:25 PM
  #75
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Whoops.....Damn you.

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