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Old
02-02-2013, 09:07 AM
  #1
Giroux tha Damaja
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Matt Carle

I just wanted to make an observation about Matt Carle. As fans started to sour on him a little bit I tended to stay pretty high on Carle and remained tolerant of his weaknesses. I think that he brought more to the ice offensively than his 35 points/year show and his defense, while not fantastic, was underrated while he was here (particularly for a guy without great physical gifts). Early on this season there is some compelling evidence for the argument in Matt Carle's defense.

He left the Flyers with the second best offense in the league. Right now the Flyers are the 27th offense in the league. Granted JVR and Jagr left, but neither one of them were exactly lighting it up for much of last season.

He went to Tampa, who had the 20th ranked offense in the league last year and are now in first by almost a goal and a half a game. Sami Salo was also added and the Salo-Hedman pairing has good #'s, but if you watch the Carle-Brouwer pairing, they've been really effective and a big part of the turn around.

At 5.5 million for six years I still don't blame Holmgren for letting him walk, but I think the way things are going here and in Tampa do a lot to reinforce the argument I have been advancing for a long time that Matt Carle is a better even strength player than he gets credit for.

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02-02-2013, 09:31 AM
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LI Fly Guy
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He sucks. Can't even get a shot on net from the blue line. He's not worth 5.5. I don't understand how some are suggesting the team sucks right now because we didn't resign him. It's actually pretty funny

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02-02-2013, 09:35 AM
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Carle is a very good defenseman, he's not a shutdown guy nor a physical guy, but he moves the puck incredibly well and he can create a lot of things, buth defensively and offensively. We'd need a guy like him.

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02-02-2013, 09:54 AM
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You're wasting your breath with Carle on here. You say one good thing about him and four people in a row just says he sucks.

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02-02-2013, 10:12 AM
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Or even the fact they didn't legitimately replace him. Have the Flyers had an odd-man rush since the Penguins game?

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02-02-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Fly Guy View Post
He sucks. Can't even get a shot on net from the blue line. He's not worth 5.5. I don't understand how some are suggesting the team sucks right now because we didn't resign him. It's actually pretty funny

I'm suggesting it's a factor and that the proof is in the pudding.

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02-02-2013, 10:22 AM
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I'm suggesting it's a factor and that the proof is in the pudding.
Sure, but for the cap hit no thanks. They can have him. That money will be well spent elsewhere

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02-02-2013, 10:32 AM
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He's good if he's paired with someone who can anchor the pair (like Chris Pronger), but if you're asking for him to be the anchor, you're SOL

I don't miss him and the fact that he always gets beat outside, coughs the puck up constantly and has no idea how to play a 2-on-1

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02-02-2013, 10:48 AM
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He wouldn't hurt us at this point. I don't think he's the reason why we suck right though. He's not great but he's not as bad some people on here make him out to be. But with all that said I'm glad he got $5.5 million elsewhere because he's not worth that IMO.

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02-02-2013, 11:07 AM
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I know that he got lunatic 5.5M from Tampa but at the same time I believe he really wanted to stay a Flyer and if Homer had not decided to low-ball him he could still wear the O&B on a bridge contract for reasonable money (~4 Million per season could have been enough to keep him).

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02-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Fly Guy View Post
Sure, but for the cap hit no thanks. They can have him. That money will be well spent elsewhere
We agree on this much at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
He's good if he's paired with someone who can anchor the pair (like Chris Pronger), but if you're asking for him to be the anchor, you're SOL

I don't miss him and the fact that he always gets beat outside, coughs the puck up constantly and has no idea how to play a 2-on-1
He always concedes the outside, but I can't remember seeing anyone actually get by him and have a clear path to the net. And his giveaway/takeaway #'s aren't bad iirc. As far as the anchor comment. If by anchor you mean he needs to be paired with a defenseman who can carry him, I disagree. If you mean a defenseman who's skills and weaknesses mesh well with Carle's (like say, and Eric Brouwer) then sure...but every defenseman needs a partner who's skills compliment their own.

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02-02-2013, 12:00 PM
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It is pretty cool that when all is said and done that we have nothing to show for Carle (all the transactions that got him to philly) except money we cant even use to replace him with anything comparable. All the hate for Carle was always completely exaggerated.

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02-02-2013, 12:19 PM
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He was a detriment in the offensive zone, because his shot was basically non-existent. I haven't really watched him in TB, but their stats indicate the same for him. The cap hit he received is a testament to the poor FA market, and is easily the worst decision Yzerman has made as GM. Guy cant defend top 6 forwards, and is very easy to defend.

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02-02-2013, 12:24 PM
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resigning him at 4 mill would have been a lateral move.

Signing him to a 5.5 offer would have been a idiotic. There is no way his play justifies that type of money. I think everyone would have brought him back at 4, but once it got past that he was going to leave no matter what.

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02-02-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He was a detriment in the offensive zone, because his shot was basically non-existent. I haven't really watched him in TB, but their stats indicate the same for him. The cap hit he received is a testament to the poor FA market, and is easily the worst decision Yzerman has made as GM.
He is not a very creative offensive player, and he did get overpaid, I agree. His value lies in his ability to distribute the puck from his own zone, which he did a lot of for the Flyers (cue giveaway complaints). You don't get 35 points every year (even playing 24 minutes/night) with out having some offensive ability. His was in transition.

Quote:
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Guy cant defend top 6 forwards, and is very easy to defend.
I would disagree about his ability to defend top 6 forwards. He is terrible at completely neutralizing good players and getting the puck back. But I think that is a function of his very conservative defensive style. He does concede a lot of ice and possession to other players, but the upside is that he is very rarely beat outright. People don't like passive defenders, which is what Carle is. But he really doesn't have much choice stylistically, given his limitations.

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02-02-2013, 01:28 PM
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bye bye Carle...

that all i have to say about that Turd.

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02-02-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He was a detriment in the offensive zone, because his shot was basically non-existent. I haven't really watched him in TB, but their stats indicate the same for him. The cap hit he received is a testament to the poor FA market, and is easily the worst decision Yzerman has made as GM. Guy cant defend top 6 forwards, and is very easy to defend.
That wasn't his role...

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02-02-2013, 02:03 PM
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If we're using small sample sizes to judge how Carle has done in Tampa Bay, that same sample size fits in to the fact that the Flyers have not only yet to prove that they're better off without him, but it seems more like they desperately need him back. No one has proven they can move the puck forward quickly and spark a transition game, especially since Timonen has started slowly. It's not like the jury is out and we're a decent team fitting in new players. Since the second lockout, we've been a good team with Carle, and a bad one without him.

By the same token, Gervais has played well for his role, and the defensemen have been still done a good job defensively 5v5. Being that he was the one who replaced Carle's spot on the roster, he hasn't been an abject failure.

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02-02-2013, 02:05 PM
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You have to wonder if he would have signed for less in Philly had Holmgren not told the media he expected to sign him for below market value. Talk about lighting a fire under a player. I think him saying that (and on more than one occasion) when Carle held all the cards was really dumb. Carle would have gotten a raise for sure but maybe he would have stuck around. I don't think much of him but he's better than a few of the guys we have right now.

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02-02-2013, 02:08 PM
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You have to wonder if he would have signed for less in Philly had Holmgren not told the media he expected to sign him for below market value. Talk about lighting a fire under a player. I think him saying that (and on more than one occasion) when Carle held all the cards was really dumb. Carle would have gotten a raise for sure but maybe he would have stuck around. I don't think much of him but he's better than a few of the guys we have right now.
I think the bigger mistake was that after blowing up the core of the team two summers ago, they should have traded him if they couldn't agree on an extension. Even his haters have to acknowledge other teams coveted him, they should have done something with him.

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02-02-2013, 02:26 PM
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02-02-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LI Fly Guy View Post
He sucks. Can't even get a shot on net from the blue line. He's not worth 5.5. I don't understand how some are suggesting the team sucks right now because we didn't resign him. It's actually pretty funny
Guess we all would rather spend $4.5 on Coburn to miss the net from the blue line.

That's a $1 million savings.

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02-02-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He was a detriment in the offensive zone, because his shot was basically non-existent. I haven't really watched him in TB, but their stats indicate the same for him. The cap hit he received is a testament to the poor FA market, and is easily the worst decision Yzerman has made as GM. Guy cant defend top 6 forwards, and is very easy to defend.
He was always solid with the pass though. Especially the breakout.

Always prone to mistakes on defense though. Was great when Pronger was able to back him up but ever since Pronger has been gone it's been a struggle.

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02-02-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I just wanted to make an observation about Matt Carle. As fans started to sour on him a little bit I tended to stay pretty high on Carle and remained tolerant of his weaknesses. I think that he brought more to the ice offensively than his 35 points/year show and his defense, while not fantastic, was underrated while he was here (particularly for a guy without great physical gifts). Early on this season there is some compelling evidence for the argument in Matt Carle's defense.

He left the Flyers with the second best offense in the league. Right now the Flyers are the 27th offense in the league. Granted JVR and Jagr left, but neither one of them were exactly lighting it up for much of last season.

He went to Tampa, who had the 20th ranked offense in the league last year and are now in first by almost a goal and a half a game. Sami Salo was also added and the Salo-Hedman pairing has good #'s, but if you watch the Carle-Brouwer pairing, they've been really effective and a big part of the turn around.

At 5.5 million for six years I still don't blame Holmgren for letting him walk, but I think the way things are going here and in Tampa do a lot to reinforce the argument I have been advancing for a long time that Matt Carle is a better even strength player than he gets credit for.

That's a good observation. I agree about Carle - I'd love to have him for 4 mil. But I don't want to go 5.5.

Especially with the Cap going down, I don't think that cap hit would help us in the long run.

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02-02-2013, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I think the bigger mistake was that after blowing up the core of the team two summers ago, they should have traded him if they couldn't agree on an extension. Even his haters have to acknowledge other teams coveted him, they should have done something with him.
I think losing Pronger ruined this team and we are going to feel the ramifications for several seasons.

If Pronger were healthy, this is a completely different team. Without that #1, everything is off kilter.

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