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Phoenix - Glendale vs Scottsdale

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02-02-2013, 11:14 AM
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Stephen
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Phoenix - Glendale vs Scottsdale

I always hear about the Phoenix Coyotes troubles partially as a result of situating the Jobing.co arena in Glendale as oppposed to Scottsdale, which kind of reminds me of when the Carolina Hurricanes moved to Greensboro, which was the 'bad' temporary spot compared to Raleigh where they eventually settled into their 'proper home'. Could someone explain to me the differences between the two cities (suburbs?) and what might account for why Glendale is seen as the less suitable location?

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02-02-2013, 11:19 AM
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Glendale is more remote and less affluent.

The real question is why they don't play in Downtown Phoenix.

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02-02-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Glendale is more remote and less affluent.

The real question is why they don't play in Downtown Phoenix.
Because Phoenix didn't want to build one when they had just built an arena for the Suns.

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02-02-2013, 11:27 AM
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Scottsdale had their chance at an arena, didn't want it. They preferred to sit there and stare at a derelict mall.

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02-02-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Glendale is more remote and less affluent.

The real question is why they don't play in Downtown Phoenix.
For cities that aren't mass transit based (ie most cities in America) there's nothing magic about a downtown arena. For many cities in America being "accessible" is more about having a convenient location off the highway than being downtown.

The idea is to minimize the time and hassle of your fans getting to the arena. Sometimes that means locating downtown. But quite often it doesn't.

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02-02-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
For cities that aren't mass transit based (ie most cities in America) there's nothing magic about a downtown arena. For many cities in America being "accessible" is more about having a convenient location off the highway than being downtown.

The idea is to minimize the time and hassle of your fans getting to the arena. Sometimes that means locating downtown. But quite often it doesn't.
In the early 90s, downtown Phoenix was in the best location. But now that has shifted eastward towards Tempe/South Scottsdale. 60, 10, 51, 101, 202 all dump into that area. Ironically, that would have put the proposed Los Arcos site in the perfect location.

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02-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I always hear about the Phoenix Coyotes troubles partially as a result of situating the Jobing.co arena in Glendale as oppposed to Scottsdale, which kind of reminds me of when the Carolina Hurricanes moved to Greensboro, which was the 'bad' temporary spot compared to Raleigh where they eventually settled into their 'proper home'. Could someone explain to me the differences between the two cities (suburbs?) and what might account for why Glendale is seen as the less suitable location?
As has been said, due to being a far more affluent area, it is assumed an arena in Scottsdale would better compete with the US Airways Center for concerts than the Jobing.Com arena.

Also, there should be an expected increase in ticket-paying customers for the Coyotes. Some will say that this would be enough to stablize the franchise, while others like myself) would say any increase would be inconsequential and that the franchise would still be floundering.

In any event, it's all a moot point because no owner was willing to spend his/her own money building an arena in Scottsdale.

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02-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
For cities that aren't mass transit based (ie most cities in America) there's nothing magic about a downtown arena. For many cities in America being "accessible" is more about having a convenient location off the highway than being downtown.

The idea is to minimize the time and hassle of your fans getting to the arena. Sometimes that means locating downtown. But quite often it doesn't.
Very good point.

In Toronto, we have a unique situation where the ACC is located right on a transit hub, which is located, coincidentally enough, downhill from the financial district, so people and money are literally just flowing into that place.

I don't imagine a city with as low a density as the Phoenix area would have the same "downtown" strategy.

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02-02-2013, 11:36 AM
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I read this thread as "Big City - One Big Suburb vs. Another Big Suburb"


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02-02-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
I read this thread as "Big City - One Big Suburb vs. Another Big Suburb"

You've never been to Scottsdale, so you are forgiven.

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02-02-2013, 11:53 AM
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My family has had a residence in North Scottsdale for almost 20 years so I know the area well.

Scottsdale would have without question been a much better venue for hockey. It's demographics are much more suitable for the game - and the city is much more central in the Metro than Glendale is.

I truly believe a Scottsdale arena could have made the Coyotes successful in Phoenix, however as was said earlier no private owner nor the city were willing to fund an arena.

I wonder how different things would have been if US Airways Arena (America West then) had been suitable for hockey as well. The Coyotes would have had a much better chance of success sharing a venue with the Suns, in a more central location than being the sole sports tenant in a remotely located facility.

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02-02-2013, 12:01 PM
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For the curious:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&s...ed=0CDAQ8gEwAA



That's where the Coyotes would be had negotiations not broken down. Much better location.

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02-02-2013, 12:03 PM
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You've never been to Scottsdale, so you are forgiven.
I've been to Scottsdale, and it is no different than a Burnaby or Mississauga. Just a large, giant suburb of a large, sprawling metropolitan area, in this case Phoenix. Yeah, they are individual cities, but the reality is that they are better known to the rest of North America as being part of Phoenix, and not as individual cities.

So no need to forgive, but thanks for your kind-hearted concern

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02-02-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
I've been to Scottsdale, and it is no different than a Burnaby or Mississauga. Just a large, giant suburb of a large, sprawling metropolitan area, in this case Phoenix.
Hardly. It's one of the wealthiest areas in the United States. And to say it is more known as a part of Phoenix is flat out wrong. If you toss Paradise Valley into the argument, it gets even more lopsided.

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The city of Scottsdale is third, after New York City and Las Vegas respectively, as having the most AAA Five-Diamond hotels and resorts in the United States.
Just a suburb.

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02-02-2013, 12:10 PM
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From the article, Off the edge:

To quote:

"It's tragic to imagine what Glendale could have done with the eventual $1 billion liability it faces - if it hadn't tried to be "the next Scottsdale," or suck assets out of downtown Phoenix and Tempe, or build one more unneeded sprawl development."

Source:
http://roguecolumnist.typepad.com/ro...-the-edge.html

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02-02-2013, 12:18 PM
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And a minor point -- Raleigh and Greensboro are 80 miles apart. They are totally different cities.

Glendale is, literally, right next to Phoenix. Center to center is only 10 miles.

I think this issue gets at some governmental difference between the US and Canada. And between states in the US.

We call the whole Phoenix metro area Phoenix -- but there isn't a Phoenix metro-wide unit of government. There is the incorporated city of Phoenix. And a dozen other smaller incorporated cities that together make up the Phoenix metro area. And in the last several decades the various cities fought an annexation war to grab as much territory as possible. With an Indian reservation to the south they raced north trying to outflank each other.

Most states just have city and county levels of government, with no metro-wide level that encompasses multiple cities and counties.

My understanding was that Canada, or at least Toronto, has a metropolitan level of govt. But I could be wrong.

There are cooperative groups and metro-wide task forces and things like that, but usually those groups have no official authority.

American metros are often made up of many competing cities and counties. I know New England has a somewhat different system.

A lot of this also gets into annexation laws which vary by state, particularly involuntary annexation -- where a city just votes to add surrounding territory regardless of what those who live there think. The only way to fight that was to incorporate your own competing city. Which is what happened in Phoenix. In Arizona, until very very recently, involuntary annexation was super easy. Same with North Carolina.

I know Virginia virtually bans it. Which is one reason why cities in Virginia are pretty weak and the counties have more power and (tax) money. The Virginia cities are stuck in the tiny geography they had decades ago, whereas a city like Phoenix kept annexing more and more land.

In most states the involuntary annexation process seems to lead to an inevitable political backlash. Which perhaps adds to the annexation race since the cities know the state govt will eventually put a moratorium on the process, so the incentive is to grab as much territory as you can before the moratorium hits.

Both North Carolina and Arizona seem to have recently hit that political backlash tipping point.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that a single metro-wide level of government might be able to make better, more rational governing decisions. But I also like the idea of competing cities and counties allowing a "vote with your feet" response by the residents. If you don't like something Glendale does, you can move to Scottsdale. And I know how irrational, self-serving, and venal actual politicians are. So a metro-wide government allows worse, more damaging mistakes to be made. And city governments often seem to take a decade or two to recognize and try to correct their mistakes. In fact it's often the "voting with their feet" of the residents that finally forces the city governments to even admit they've screwed something up.

It's the whole "laboratories of democracy" idea, but at an intra-metro level. The more "voting with their feet" the faster the learning process of the government.

How different is the Canadian system?

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02-02-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Hardly. It's one of the wealthiest areas in the United States. And to say it is more known as a part of Phoenix is flat out wrong. If you toss Paradise Valley into the argument, it gets even more lopsided.

Just a suburb.
Sure, LOCALLY in the valley, it has it's own identity. But to most of NA, it is just another suburb of Phoenix. You can go ahead and build it up all you want, but it won't change anything. You can't tell where Scottsdale begins and ends from the rest of the suburbs in Phoenix. The only thing that stands out to me is it's tiny yet quaint little western themed downtown with a mall. Other than that, just another glorified sprawling mess of a 'burb in a big city.

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02-02-2013, 12:35 PM
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So why didn't Scottsdale want to build an arena and have the Coyotes?

Did they see something that Glendale didn't? Did they just not like the idea of building a " build it and they will come " facility? Did they just not like the deal?

I don't know, so I'm asking.

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02-02-2013, 12:47 PM
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Scottsdale had their chance at an arena, didn't want it. They preferred to sit there and stare at a derelict mall.
I wouldn't call Fashion Square derelict by any means...

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02-02-2013, 12:48 PM
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I wouldn't call Fashion Square derelict by any means...
I am referring to Los Arcos. They just tore it down instead of redeveloping it, and eventually sold the land to ASU.

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02-02-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
So why didn't Scottsdale want to build an arena and have the Coyotes?

Did they see something that Glendale didn't? Did they just not like the idea of building a " build it and they will come " facility? Did they just not like the deal?

I don't know, so I'm asking.
Glendale offered a better deal and a chance at Westgate, which tickled Ellman something fierce.

Quote:
Who got the worst of this - Scottsdale or Glendale?

First, a little background for those who missed the Coyotes arena drama: Ellman tore down Los Arcos Mall at Scottsdale and McDowell roads in 2001 as he negotiated with Scottsdale for sales-tax incentives. When he could not get what he wanted, Ellman took his puck and turned to an offer from Glendale to play hockey in the West Valley.

He then convinced Scottsdale in 2003 to give him $36 million in tax subsidies to build a Walmart and other big-box retailers at Los Arcos. A voter referendum doomed that Plan B.

Plan C was the ASU Foundation buying the Los Arcos site from Ellman and selling it to Scottsdale for $41.5 million. With infrastructure costs and other subsidies, the city is investing $120 million in SkySong, a business incubator that steadily has been attracting startups.

So what if there was a hockey arena there instead of 9-to-5 office buildings?

Most observers agree the Scottsdale location would have had a much better chance of succeeding.

There is far more disposable income in and around Scottsdale to support hockey, said Ross Smith, Cassidy Turley BRE Land Group senior vice president.

Ray Artigue, former head of the sports-business program at Arizona State University, said losing the arena was a "lost opportunity of significant proportions" for Scottsdale.

"There's no question that the former Los Arcos site would have been ideal for the Coyotes arena and any ancillary restaurant and retail development," said Artigue, who heads his own public-relations firm.

Former Scottsdale City Council member Tom Silverman, who opposed the arena at Los Arcos because of its negative effects on the neighborhood, also conceded the Coyotes would have drawn better in Scottsdale.

Meanwhile, Ortega is adamant that SkySong was a terrible deal for Scottsdale. The city paid nearly triple what the land was worth to bail out Ellman, it took the property off the tax rolls and it gets very little return on its investment, he said.

"I kind of call it 'SadSong,' " Ortega said.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...up-pieces.html

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02-02-2013, 12:59 PM
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We can debate this all we want but at the end of the day, if many of the same conditions that lead to this mess the team is in now(i.e. fairweather sports market, bad managment, and horriable lease terms) then it doesn't matter where the Coyotes play in the Metro Area. Plus it's water under the bridge seeing that what has happened has happened and what was done was done. Also, I don't see anyone looking to buy the team now and looking to have an arena in Scottsdale at this time.

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02-02-2013, 01:08 PM
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Also, I don't see anyone looking to buy the team now and looking to have an arena in Scottsdale at this time.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/t...rts-mecca.html

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Creation of the district will allow ASU to issue construction bonds whose debt service will be financed by charges on developers building on or leasing property within the district. The charge is in lieu of a property tax because commercial developments do not pay property tax on university-owned land.

Construction will not begin until there are commercial developments under way and there is a large enough revenue stream, Renzulli said.

The funding mechanism "is a part of this grand vision, but at the same time, it was an absolute necessity," Renzulli said. "Now it can happen. We're in the position to do it. As the economy recovers, then we can start working on some development deals."

A full renovation of Sun Devil Stadium would lengthen the stadium's lifespan, bring it up to par with industry standards and enhance the fan experience, ASU officials said. There will be structural upgrades, as well as changes to electricity and plumbing, stadium seating and eating facilities. Renzulli said fans can expect a stadium that is "pretty close to an entirely new stadium."

For at least a year, ASU President Michael Crow has said publicly that he envisions ASU's athletic facilities by 2020 growing to become a major destination for amateur sports that is capable of hosting the Pan American Games and Olympic trials.

ASU officials have said that such growth also could advance Tempe's economic development.

Tempe Councilwoman Onnie Shekerjian said city and ASU officials have been discussing potential developments.
Sound familiar? ASU created a massive CFD district on the land it owns (basically everything west of Tempe Marketplace) and Crow wants to build a giant commercial/sports district along Tempe Town Lake. Wells Fargo needs to be replaced, so I could easily see a potential new owner getting in on the fun for a 17-20k seat arena in that corridor. Plus the clock is running on Sarver and US Airways Center. Both need replacing.

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02-02-2013, 01:12 PM
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I wouldn't be so sure about that.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/t...rts-mecca.html



Sound familiar? ASU created a massive CFD district on the land it owns (basically everything west of Tempe Marketplace) and Crow wants to build a giant commercial/sports district along Tempe Town Lake. Wells Fargo needs to be replaced, so I could easily see a potential new owner getting in on the fun for a 17-20k seat arena in that corridor. Plus the clock is running on Sarver and US Airways Center. Both need replacing.
Exactly. ASU/Coyotes need to go in together ala Hurricanes/NC State.

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02-02-2013, 01:56 PM
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Well, unless someone builds another arena in a desirable location, this team is either staying in Glendale for 25 years or leaving for good.

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