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Messier overrated?

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Old
02-04-2011, 06:40 PM
  #251
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
IMO Messier's defensive skills are the most overrated aspect of his game. I really don't think he was that great on the defensive side of things until the early 90's. He certainly wasn't in the same league as other offensive forwards on the defensive side of things such as Clarke, Trots, Kurri and Fedorov.
Agreed with you here.

Messier was good on the draw, a physical guy (obviously) and could be used power against power but I don't think he was outstanding defensively by any means. Not to say he was bad either, though.

Certainly not at the Clarke Trottier Fedorov level..

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02-04-2011, 06:53 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm a Devils fan and I realize that Brodeur was the Devil's regular season MVP (as do all the players of the team who constantly voted him team MVP). Stevens was definitely their playoff MVP, but Brodeur wasn't all that far behind. If you mostly watched the team in the playoffs, I don't blame you for thinking Stevens was much more important.

I'll save my Cherry rant for another thread because I don't feel like getting an infraction now.
I don't usually bring up Stevens in Brodeur discussions. Its more about the system. To a certain extent he too benefited from the defensive style the Devils played. Not from an offensive view, but I think playing in that near-perfect system allowed him to sit back more than when he was a young Dman running around looking for big hits all the time. And of course Brodeur handled a lot of the dump-ins. Stevens really refined his game in NJ, he was both efficient and still intimidating.

I saw the Devils a lot in the regular season. In Connecticut we could always pick up their games. I probably see less of them now because of the Center Ice package. Too many good games on many nights.

The only thing I have to see besides the Bruins is Coaches Corner.

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02-04-2011, 07:04 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Exactly.

Messier is just purely overrated and it's not even funny.

He's a top 25 forward, top 30 player but he does not belong anywhere near the top 15 best players.

Better leaders than Messier: Yzerman, Beliveau, Sakic, Howe, Orr, Clarke

Better power forwards: Lindros, Neely, Howe, Ted Lindsay, Conacher, Geoffron, Richard

Better offensive players: tons, to start Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Esposito, Orr, Bossy, Mikkita, Sakic

Better Centers: Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito, Sakic, Yzerman, Mikkita, Clarke...

Better two-way players: (Messier is not really a two-way player): Mikkita, Trottier, Clarke, Federov, Carbonneau, Gainey, Lemaire, Lehtinen.

Stronger players (forwards): Lindros, Neely, Jagr, Beliveau, Howe, Bertuzzi

Better cheap shot artist: Not many are better than Messier.

For all the things that people say makes him great, Messier is not even top 5 for any of them.
How was Orr a better leader?

From what I recall, they could barely get two words out of him on most nights. Espo, Cheevers, Cashman, Bucyk, for starters, were leaders on those teams. Orr just had to play.

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02-01-2013, 08:32 PM
  #254
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One of the best lines in sports broadcasting history. Bettman hands Messier the Cup and after Messier skated over to the team with it and hoisted it above his head the announcer stated, "The Messiah Has Delivered."

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02-02-2013, 05:19 AM
  #255
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Yes, Mess is overrated, by a huge margin. He was elevated to godlike status for the Rangers cup. Bit like the myth of some baseball player.

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02-02-2013, 08:28 AM
  #256
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6 cups, 1 conn, 2 harts, 2 lindseys, 4 first team & 1 second, 4 top 10 goals, 6 top 10 assists, 6 top 10 points, 10 top 10 short handed goals.

the vancouver disaster hurts but delivering the cup to New York, and keeping the ship on course after they moved gretz was seriously inspirational at the time and everybody knew Mess was on the hook for it.

he's right below the top shelf guys like gretz, howe, orr, mario, hull

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02-02-2013, 10:22 AM
  #257
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Messier is a great player but I think his contribution to the NY Rangers cup is vastly over rated.

What is always glossed over is Sergei Zubov's contribution to the team. As a Defensemen, in his first full season, he led the team in points and had some huge moments for the team. Nemchinov's leadearship with the young Zubov(23 y/o), Kovalev(20y/o), and Karpotsev(23y/o) is never talked about either.

Then there is Brian Leetch's amazing play. I think Messier just gets the credit because of his status as a star coming in and the guarantee.

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02-02-2013, 12:02 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Messier is a great player but I think his contribution to the NY Rangers cup is vastly over rated.

What is always glossed over is Sergei Zubov's contribution to the team. As a Defensemen, in his first full season, he led the team in points and had some huge moments for the team. Nemchinov's leadearship with the young Zubov(23 y/o), Kovalev(20y/o), and Karpotsev(23y/o) is never talked about either.

Then there is Brian Leetch's amazing play. I think Messier just gets the credit because of his status as a star coming in and the guarantee.
Yeah, but without Messier there none of hose guys have good years. He brought that all together. He was the glue on that team.

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02-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Yes, Mess is overrated, by a huge margin. He was elevated to godlike status for the Rangers cup. Bit like the myth of some baseball player.
I don't think he is hugely overrated. But, however the Ranger cup certainly had some people thinking he "knew" they were going to win. He gambled and won.

That being said. Captain of two different Cup teams. 2x Hart winner and 2nd most points in career. One of the most complete player's ever. Big, dirty, nasty, elite offense, solid defense. How CAN you be overrated?

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02-02-2013, 12:59 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Messier is a great player but I think his contribution to the NY Rangers cup is vastly over rated.

What is always glossed over is Sergei Zubov's contribution to the team. As a Defensemen, in his first full season, he led the team in points and had some huge moments for the team. Nemchinov's leadearship with the young Zubov(23 y/o), Kovalev(20y/o), and Karpotsev(23y/o) is never talked about either.

Then there is Brian Leetch's amazing play. I think Messier just gets the credit because of his status as a star coming in and the guarantee.
Points in 21 of the Rangers' 23 playoff games probably has something to do with him getting more credit than anyone but Brian Leetch.

Three 30+ point playoffs
Seven 20+ point playoffs

In the four-round playoff era, he's up on the Gretzky/Roy level. And the fact that his scoring finishes were largely affected by missing 5-10 games each season (in addition to his six Top-10 finishes, he has four more seasons - 1984, 1989, 1996, 1997 - with a Top-10 points-per-game placement) is offset by his teams consistently being significantly worse with him out of the lineup since 1987.

HFBoards underrates Mark Messier because most of HFBoards missed his prime. Here I am, defending his offensive numbers, but those don't even tell half of the story. He was as dangerous as Scott Stevens, excelled at both Left Wing and Center, and played to the score as well as anybody. He would call out his own teammates for diving, and by the accounts of his teammates, elevated their play because they knew they would have to answer to him. With all respect to Sakic and Yzerman, their teammates often credit someone else with being that presence (the former's goaltender and the latter's coach).

The biggest criticism one could make is that he enjoys money. I encourage anyone who didn't see him prior to the Dead Puck Era to get a subscription to NHL Vault and watch some Oilers games. I don't know if the Chicago series is on there, but THAT is the Mark Messier we rank inside the Top-12 of all-time; not the one you saw in 2002 or on the back of a hockey card.

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02-02-2013, 01:01 PM
  #261
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I'm constantly amazed by these threads.

Yes, a center who won two Hart trophies and two first-team all-star berths against the toughest competition anyone has ever faced at any position in history is overrated. A player with one of the five best playoff resumes of all-time is overrated.

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02-02-2013, 01:08 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by lovetherangers View Post
...Howe, Trots (Trottier), Stan (Mikita), Beliveau, and Clarke...
These guys are all better. Among centers so are Gretzky, Lemieux, Kelly, and Morenz. Messier is not a top 20 player, but he is top 25.

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02-02-2013, 01:09 PM
  #263
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Yes I agree most did not see messier in his prime or Guy Lafleur in his lets just say both were underated.Both hated to lose and that something you cant measure

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02-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Agreed with you here.

Messier was good on the draw, a physical guy (obviously) and could be used power against power but I don't think he was outstanding defensively by any means. Not to say he was bad either, though.

Certainly not at the Clarke Trottier Fedorov level..
I kinda get what you're saying, but I disagree that he wasn't elite defensively or that he could only be used in, 'power on power' match up. For example: Messier was matched up against Larionov in the 87 Canada Cup, and against Denis Savard in the 1990 playoffs. Not exactly power-on-power matches, there.

He wasn't on Clarke's level, but he was probably close to Trottier. I won't touch on Fedorov because a cult has developed around this guy on HFBoards, and any negative comments will no doubt derail this thread.

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02-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #265
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I'm leaving out goalies, because they're in a class by themselves. That being said (in MY opinion)...

Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux are the top tier. The 'Big Four' if you will. An exclusive club, and I don't know if a fifth will be added to this group anytime soon. Whoever number five will be hasn't entered the NHL yet.

I think Mark Messier belongs in this next group with; The Richards, Dennis Potvin, the Hulls, Guy Lafleur, Steve Yzerman, Jean Beliveau, Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Phil Esposito, and Mike Bossy. A case could also be made for Ray Bourque, Marcel Dionne, and Mike Modano's inclusion in this group, also.

Mark Messier had a scoring touch, and was a beast on the ice. The fact that he was ALWAYS picked as an alternate captain every time in international competition for the Canadian squad should close that question. Personally, I wish he could have been a Boston Bruin. Even if it were only for a day... Some of his stats are inflated because he played for so long, but you don't play in the NHL from 1979-2004 without being pretty darn great.

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02-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
These guys are all better. Among centers so are Gretzky, Lemieux, Kelly, and Morenz. Messier is not a top 20 player, but he is top 25.

Howe, Beliveau, Gretzky, Lemieux and Morenz are.

Arguments could be made either way for Mikita and Clarke.

I'd love to see the arguments for Trottier and Kelly, though.

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02-02-2013, 06:26 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by rfournier103 View Post
I'm leaving out goalies, because they're in a class by themselves. That being said (in MY opinion)...

Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux are the top tier. The 'Big Four' if you will. An exclusive club, and I don't know if a fifth will be added to this group anytime soon. Whoever number five will be hasn't entered the NHL yet.

I think Mark Messier belongs in this next group with; The Richards, Dennis Potvin, the Hulls, Guy Lafleur, Steve Yzerman, Jean Beliveau, Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Phil Esposito, and Mike Bossy. A case could also be made for Ray Bourque, Marcel Dionne, and Mike Modano's inclusion in this group, also.

Mark Messier had a scoring touch, and was a beast on the ice. The fact that he was ALWAYS picked as an alternate captain every time in international competition for the Canadian squad should close that question. Personally, I wish he could have been a Boston Bruin. Even if it were only for a day... Some of his stats are inflated because he played for so long, but you don't play in the NHL from 1979-2004 without being pretty darn great.
That is seriously twisted list.

Paul Coffey for sure but case to be made for Bourque? Really.

Both Hull's? Modano? No Jagr? No Lidstrom?

Not a solid list.

Being long in the NHL does NOT inflate stats.

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02-02-2013, 09:07 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
He was widely considered the second or third best forward to Gretzky and then Mario for many seasons before he ever won the Hart.
Not true. In fact, he only finish top-five in PPG twice, only once before his first Hart. And if you seriously think he was considered "third-best" for MANY seasons... you're nuts.

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Originally Posted by CharlestownChiefsESC View Post
Yeah, but without Messier there none of hose guys have good years. He brought that all together. He was the glue on that team.
Yep, I'm sure Brian Leetch, who was a Norris contender while Messier was in Edmonton, was really going to have a problem having a good season without Messier. And I'm sure a Canadian offensive forward in Messier had an amazing amount to do with how well a young Russian defensive defenseman like Karpovtsev played. Did Karpovtsev even speak English at the time? And one point you seem to have ignored is the fact that ZUBOV LED THE TEAM IN SCORING. Messier's supposed to be an elite center, and he can't even break Zubov's 89 points in the early 90s?

Hmm. Actually, looking back at it, that was a difficult mark for Messier to hit. He only made it there nine times in his career. Only once did he score more than 60 points during the DPE, when a player with his physical traits would normally have had less trouble than the average player.

Messier is an incredibly overrated player. In 1990 he won the Hart trophy effectively because Jimmy Carson decided he could no longer play for the Oilers. Carson was traded to Detroit for a massive overpayment of wingers, and Messier received an incredible increase in ice time. This is notable because Messier was actually the second-line center on the Oilers during the 88-89 season (Carson centered Kurri and Tikkanen, Messier centered Simpson and Anderson). In 1992 he won the Hart because... New York? I still cannot deduce what possible reason so many voters had to give Messier the 1992 Hart. I get that he's physical. But his defensive game was never great, and was only just rounding into "good" around that time. Mario Lemieux won the Ross and scored more than 2 PPG that year (131 in 64), and wasn't even top three. It boggles the mind. Scoring isn't all there is... but when you score that much, you have to be pretty freaking valuable to your team. Only fifteen times ever has a player played 60+ games and scored 2 PPG or better. Ten times it was Wayne Gretzky, five times it was Mario Lemieux. If you remove entries where one of them lost the Hart to the other who is also above 2 PPG, then we take out Gretzky's 87-88 and Lemieux's 88-89. Which leaves us with eleven Harts in thirteen seasons. The ones who didn't win? Lemieux in 1992 (Messier), and Wayne Gretzky in 1991 (Brett Hull and 86 goals).

If we continue down the field to say 1.8 PPG, we get these results in the next few entries (Hart winner in parenthesis): 1971 Phil Esposito (Bobby Orr), 1990 Gretzky (Messier), 1989 Steve Yzerman and Bernie Nicholls (Gretzky), 1991 Oates (played 61 games, lost to Hull), 1974 Esposito (Esposito won it this time), 1985 Jari Kurri (Gretzky), 1982 Mike Bossy (Gretzky), 1996 Jaromir Jagr (Lemieux).

So of eight more entries, we have five that go away to a 2+ PPG player. That leaves Orr's 139 points over Esposito's 152. Teammates, one of them is a defenseman who plays at both ends and the other is a highly skilled power forward who only sees his goalie before and after games. Tough choice there.

In 1974, Esposito won the Ross by 23 points (145 to Orr's 122), and won the Hart.

And in 1990, Messier edged out Bourque in a controversial Hart vote, and won over Gretzky despite being beaten in the scoring race by 13 points.

And of course there's Hull beating out both Gretzky and his superior yet injured linemate (Oates) in 1991.

So of all times one or more players scored 1.8+ and played 60GP or more, the only times a Hart was won not by one of those players was:

1971 - Bobby Orr, the highest scoring season for a defenseman ever
1990 - Mark Messier, second in scoring by 13 points; 2 points ahead of 3rd (Yzerman)
1991 - Brett Hull, the second highest goal-scoring season ever (86)
1992 - Mark Messier, tied for fifth in scoring (107, Robitaille); 24 points behind leader (Lemieux)

Now, can someone from the "pro-Messier" camp please explain to me why Messier was worthy of those Harts?

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02-02-2013, 09:13 PM
  #269
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How is Hull so hight when you can make an arguement that he 2nd best behind Stan Makita?Messier is underated and for people saying Morenz was better than Lafleur than people must be uneducated .

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02-02-2013, 09:21 PM
  #270
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Ask Howie Meeker who the best hab is Guy Lafleur no question.Meeker played against Richard and many of the hab greats.Lafleur played with Borderline line players like shutt lemaire .No names like Mark napier Keith Acton .Messier is a player you go war with when he was on the ice you knew you could be hit or he could make a play.Messier and Trottier are people who lead a team and both should be in top 20 and possibly higher

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02-02-2013, 09:51 PM
  #271
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Messier's Hart in 92 has a pretty simple explanation. He is traded to NY, leads the team in scoring, the team has a 14 win improvement from the previous year winning The Presidents Trophy. .

Compare that to Mario Lemieux who played 38 more games for Pittsburgh than he did the previous season but the Penguins still finish with 2 less wins.

Messier seems to fit the Hart Trophy's definition as the "player adjudged to be most valuable to his team".

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02-02-2013, 10:01 PM
  #272
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While I refuse to consider Messier anywhere near the talent level of most (if not all) of the guys that surround him on all-time lists, I'm not sure there are many names above him in the "effective" category. Ultimately it's possible to make up a lot of ground on talent by being unbelievably productive and valuable for an incredibly long time.

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02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
  #273
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
That is seriously twisted list.

Paul Coffey for sure but case to be made for Bourque? Really.

Both Hull's? Modano? No Jagr? No Lidstrom?

Not a solid list.

Being long in the NHL does NOT inflate stats.
Clearly Bourque was better than Coffey.

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02-02-2013, 11:13 PM
  #274
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Messier's Hart in 92 has a pretty simple explanation. He is traded to NY, leads the team in scoring, the team has a 14 win improvement from the previous year winning The Presidents Trophy. .

Compare that to Mario Lemieux who played 38 more games for Pittsburgh than he did the previous season but the Penguins still finish with 2 less wins.

Messier seems to fit the Hart Trophy's definition as the "player adjudged to be most valuable to his team".
Ok, so why did Hull win in 1991?

The Blues' GF increased by 15. Hull increased his own output by 14. They went from the 8th-best offense to the 4th-best. But the reason the Blues had so much more success in 1990-91? In addition to the offensive increase, they allowed 29 fewer goals. That's a +43 to their GD.

The 1992 Penguins and the 1991 Penguins had almost the same GF and GA; however the 1992 team allowed close to 200 fewer shots on the season.

By contrast, the 1992 Rangers scored 24 goals more, while allowing 19 fewer. Yet they allowed only ten fewer shots in 29 fewer minutes.

So a huge factor in the performance of both teams from one year to the next was the goaltending/defense; Barrasso/etc. clearly did not perform as well in 1991-92 as they did in 1990-91. In contrast, Vanbiesbrouck/Richter performed considerably better in 1991-92 than in 1990-91.

Messier scored 34 points more in 1992 than Nicholls in 1991. However, Leetch also improved his offensive performance by 14 points.

One other factor which may have caused the Pens to have a weaker regular season is the fact that in the middle of the season Coffey was sold off for Brian Benning and picks; that would then be sent with Recchi to Philadelphia for Tocchet, K.Samuelsson (to take Coffey's spot), and Ken Wregget.

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02-02-2013, 11:56 PM
  #275
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Not true. In fact, he only finish top-five in PPG twice, only once before his first Hart. And if you seriously think he was considered "third-best" for MANY seasons... you're nuts.
Than who was? Between 1986 and 1992, 99 and 66 OWNED the second and first-team all-star center berths. . .except when Messier broke in there twice. And again, he won two Hart trophies against the toughest competition anyone has ever faced in that regard. Clarke won some against Orr, but Messier won them against Gretzky and Lemieux. Does even Beliveau do that? Throw in three dominant post-season runs, and the gap between Messier and the other guys you might consider becomes pretty wide.


Quote:
Yep, I'm sure Brian Leetch, who was a Norris contender while Messier was in Edmonton, was really going to have a problem having a good season without Messier. And I'm sure a Canadian offensive forward in Messier had an amazing amount to do with how well a young Russian defensive defenseman like Karpovtsev played. Did Karpovtsev even speak English at the time?
Yeah, let's forget about the leadership angle because, frankly, it allows too many posters to cry overrated and ignore the on-ice accomplishments which should speak for themselves.

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And one point you seem to have ignored is the fact that ZUBOV LED THE TEAM IN SCORING. Messier's supposed to be an elite center, and he can't even break Zubov's 89 points in the early 90s?
What does this prove? Zubov had an incredible season and never came close again. He outscored Brian Leetch that season, too. I don't think anyone would argue that Zubov was better offensively than Leetch and yet, it happened.

In 1995, Steve Yzerman got outscored by Ray Sheppard, Keith Primeau, Dino Ciccarelli and. . . offensive defenseman Paul Coffey. Oh yeah, all those guys had better PPG, too. Unlike Yzerman, Messier followed up his 1994 output with a strong playoff run. . .whereas Yzerman got outscored by Doug friggin' Brown.

You seem to want to focus on these little details as if they mean something. The fact is, every player has these anomalies throughout their career.

Quote:
Hmm. Actually, looking back at it, that was a difficult mark for Messier to hit. He only made it there nine times in his career.
You know Yzerman only did it nine times too, right? Ditto Trottier. Esposito seven times? Peter Stastny seven times? Denis Savard is another seven timer.

Thank you for pointing out that Messier's consistent offensive production is as good as any other human being of his era (excluding 99 and 66. . . not human).


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Only once did he score more than 60 points during the DPE, when a player with his physical traits would normally have had less trouble than the average player
The DPE started in 1997 (when the number of 110+ point players dropped from 6 the year before to 1, and the 50+ scorers dropped from 8 to 4). Messier had 84 points that year. 60 the next. And 67 in 2001. I won't bother with PPG in seasons where he missed a bunch of games but, suffice it to say, you're way off the mark here again.

Quote:
Messier is an incredibly overrated player. In 1990 he won the Hart trophy effectively because Jimmy Carson decided he could no longer play for the Oilers. Carson was traded to Detroit for a massive overpayment of wingers, and Messier received an incredible increase in ice time. This is notable because Messier was actually the second-line center on the Oilers during the 88-89 season (Carson centered Kurri and Tikkanen, Messier centered Simpson and Anderson).
You have no fact on which back this up. I suppose Carson is the no. 1 center because of his wingers? Who would break up Anderson-Messier? They were dominant for years, and Keenan even kept them together in the 1987 Canada Cup.

Kurri-Carson-Tikkanen made sense because both those guys were two-way wingers and capable of covering for the one-dimensional Carson. Carson outscored Messier by virtue of playing more games, but Messier had the superior PPG, on top of being a physical force and playing a ton on both special teams. Anyone who looks at Messier's 1989 season and says he wasn't a first-line center is kidding themselves.

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In 1992 he won the Hart because... New York? I still cannot deduce what possible reason so many voters had to give Messier the 1992 Hart. I get that he's physical. But his defensive game was never great, and was only just rounding into "good" around that time. Mario Lemieux won the Ross and scored more than 2 PPG that year (131 in 64), and wasn't even top three.
I think everyone is aware that Mario is a pretty good player. But you're listing his accomplishments here in a vacumn, Messier had an impressive 1992 too, and was a valid winner.

BTW, you know he won the Pearson that year too, right? That's two seperate groups of voters who judged him the best player in the game that year.

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And in 1990, Messier edged out Bourque in a controversial Hart vote, and won over Gretzky despite being beaten in the scoring race by 13 points.
Again, won the Pearson. Two groups of voters. Two MVP wins for Messier. Gee, you think there might be some validity to that?


Last edited by DisgruntledGoat: 02-03-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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