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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

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Old
02-02-2013, 12:18 PM
  #651
overpass
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
- As I understand it, Brewer was considered the better player during Toronto's first two Cup runs, but Horton overtook him in year three. This jives with the all-star voting results, for what it's worth. So, if "multiple cups" means two, then yes, I think one could say that about Brewer.

- Cowley was helped quite a bit by the war. And his defensive issues and lack of physicality are well known. I think he fits into the tier with Stastny and Hawerchuk and a couple of undrafteds. He is a fine pick here, but he was not the #1 center on my board.
Cowley's best season was 1940-41 and that came before NHL players were leaving for the war. His second Hart trophy season, 1942-43, came in a year when most stars were still in the NHL. The best players who left before that season were his teammates.

Really it's only the 1943-44 and 1944-45 seasons that were strongly affected by talent loss. And Cowley didn't do anything in those seasons that was beyond the level he had established in the five years before the war.

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02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Cowley's best season was 1940-41 and that came before NHL players were leaving for the war. His second Hart trophy season, 1942-43, came in a year when most stars were still in the NHL. The best players who left before that season were his teammates.

Really it's only the 1943-44 and 1944-45 seasons that were strongly affected by talent loss. And Cowley didn't do anything in those seasons that was beyond the level he had established in the five years before the war.
I shouldn't have to remind anyone of the fact that the early 40's were, in general, a quite poor era for NHL talent, irrespective of the war.

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02-02-2013, 12:37 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I shouldn't have to remind anyone of the fact that the early 40's were, in general, a quite poor era for NHL talent, irrespective of the war.
Sure. But if Cowley puts up those accomplishments 20 years later he's drafted in the top 50.

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02-02-2013, 12:39 PM
  #654
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I'm headed out for a while

I left a list with TDMM since he picks after me.
Has anyone pmed TDMM? He has the next GMs pick and he picks after.

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02-02-2013, 12:57 PM
  #655
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Sure. But if Cowley puts up those accomplishments 20 years later he's drafted in the top 50.
The contrafactual is difficult to discuss rationally. Nobody as soft and one-dimensonal as Cowley would have had a chance in hell of winning two Harts in the height of the O6 era, unless he was a Gretzky-level talent, that is. In order for him to have the same accomplishments 20 years later, he would have to be a different player.

I used to hate Bill Cowley when he was drafted around pick #100. Outside of the top 150, I think he's good value, warts and all, but I think only he's one candidate of several for BPA at this point. I don't hate Cowley, but I do think his slide is one of this year's justified corrections, and a signal that the ATD continues to move forward. Now, if we could only do something about Punch Broadbent...

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02-02-2013, 01:16 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The contrafactual is difficult to discuss rationally. Nobody as soft and one-dimensonal as Cowley would have had a chance in hell of winning two Harts in the height of the O6 era, unless he was a Gretzky-level talent, that is. In order for him to have the same accomplishments 20 years later, he would have to be a different player.
Of course. For him to have four first-team AS picks he'd have to be beating out Jean Beliveau and Stan Mikita. It's doubtful Cowley would have done that four times, and if he did he would deserve to go in the top 50.

As it is he beat out Milt Schmidt, Syl Apps, Max Bentley, and Elmer Lach for those AS team spots, all of whom were drafted well ahead of him. That's still pretty impressive.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I used to hate Bill Cowley when he was drafted around pick #100. Outside of the top 150, I think he's good value, warts and all, but I think only he's one candidate of several for BPA at this point. I don't hate Cowley, but I do think his slide is one of this year's justified corrections, and a signal that the ATD continues to move forward. Now, if we could only do something about Punch Broadbent...
Wait, Broadbent is drafted? I didn't expect that, I was sure you were mentioning an undrafted.

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02-02-2013, 01:41 PM
  #657
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I did not get any PMs except BC's PM sending me his list.

BC saved me from making a really tough decision. He picks "Old Poison" Nels Stewart, C



Phil Esposito and Nels Stewart down the middle would have either been unstoppable or a laughing stock. Now the goal scoring, tobacco spitting slug is BC's problem/ace in the hole.

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02-02-2013, 01:43 PM
  #658
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I was down to Cowley or Maltsev back at 143, he's unreal value where Overpass got him.

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02-02-2013, 01:46 PM
  #659
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Expect my pick in about 2 hours.

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02-02-2013, 01:54 PM
  #660
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I was going back and forth between Cowley and Stewart. Ended up going with Cowley but it was very close.

I did some reading about Stewart's 1926 playoffs. Very impressive. He dropped back to D to cover for Dunc Munro's illness, and he and Reg Noble played almost all of every game. And he also managed to be the main offensive threat for the team from the defensive position, scoring 6 of 10 goals and being consistently described as their most dangerous offensive player. Apparently Siebert and Broadbent, the wingers, were back-checking ferociously which helped break up the Victoria attack and gave Stewart and Noble more opportunities to go on the attack themselves.

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02-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #661
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Stewart was a force of nature in '26. Probably the best rookie season in NHL history. It's a shame that fire quickly died. Still a phenomenal finisher.

----------------------------------

IMO the centers of the 1940's is an area that would benefit from some heavy analysis.

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02-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #662
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I would always side with the playmaking C over the sniping C when just about all else is equal.

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02-02-2013, 02:16 PM
  #663
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I think the Stewart pick gives BC a lot of flexibility...He said he drafted Francis to play with Jagr, but I think Stewart - Jagr is a combo that could work well given the proper LW, so now BC has the option of playing Francis on the 2nd line if he wants.

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02-02-2013, 02:17 PM
  #664
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I think the Stewart pick gives BC a lot of flexibility...He said he drafted Francis to play with Jagr, but I think Stewart - Jagr is a combo that could work well given the proper LW, so now BC has the option of playing Francis on the 2nd line if he wants.
Well it may give him some sleepless nights actually, because Jagr is a perfect winger for Stewart I thibk but you also don't want to split up Francis-Jagr.

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02-02-2013, 02:19 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Stewart was a force of nature in '26. Probably the best rookie season in NHL history. It's a shame that fire quickly died. Still a phenomenal finisher.
Not sure what you're talking about - Stewart was consistently good for a decade.

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IMO the centers of the 1940's is an area that would benefit from some heavy analysis.
Agreed.

Am I the only one who would take Cowley over Syl Apps? Of course, I'd probably take Stastny above Apps, so maybe I'm just ****ed...

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02-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Well it may give him some sleepless nights actually, because Jagr is a perfect winger for Stewart I thibk but you also don't want to split up Francis-Jagr.
Just put Nels Stewart on LW. He had a lot of success there. Was even named an unofficial 1st team all-star on LW in 1929.

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02-02-2013, 02:29 PM
  #667
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Not sure what you're talking about - Stewart was consistently good for a decade.
He was still a very good player and great scorer, but after three or four seasons he was frequently described as lackluster defensively and effort wise.

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02-02-2013, 02:35 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Well it may give him some sleepless nights actually, because Jagr is a perfect winger for Stewart I thibk but you also don't want to split up Francis-Jagr.
True. Stewart on a line with Jagr would only see the puck when it was time to shoot, which is the ideal, I guess. Not the slightest quantum of defense between that pair, though; puck-possession opponents would give them fits. I think he should probably keep Francis - Jagr together.

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02-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #669
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He was still a very good player and great scorer, but after three or four seasons he was frequently described as lackluster defensively and effort wise.
I read it the same way in my research. Stewart was an all-around force in his rookie season but started to pick his spots when it came to effort fairly soon afterward and with increasing frequency.

The other reason I picked Cowley is that his offensive peak matches up with a dominant offensive peak from his team, and all evidence points to him being the player most responsible for that team scoring success. For all Stewart's goals scored his teams were never great offensively, despite playing with some pretty good teammates.

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02-02-2013, 02:39 PM
  #670
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It's a shame because rookie Nels Stewart sounds a lot like Gordie Howe.

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02-02-2013, 02:45 PM
  #671
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The other reason I picked Cowley is that his offensive peak matches up with a dominant offensive peak from his team, and all evidence points to him being the player most responsible for that team scoring success. For all Stewart's goals scored his teams were never great offensively, despite playing with some pretty good teammates.
Stewart seemed to have a unique ability to make his teammates worse. Its funny to see Hooley Smith and Babe Siebert go above Nels, when they were basically grinders when they played his wings.

Still, getting a 2-time Hart winner this late must be pretty sweet

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02-02-2013, 02:45 PM
  #672
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It's a shame because rookie Nels Stewart sounds a lot like Gordie Howe.
As Aristotle said, "excellence is not an act, but a habit."

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02-02-2013, 03:07 PM
  #673
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Am I the only one who would take Cowley over Syl Apps? Of course, I'd probably take Stastny above Apps, so maybe I'm just ****ed...
You're ****ed! I understand that Apps should perhaps be taken outside the Top-50, but let's not go overboard. He's still a terrific hockey players, and a notch over both Cowley & Stastny. Now, if we're talking about value, I'll take Cowley now 10 time out of 10 before Syl Apps in the 40's.

and Nels Stewart was second on our list if we missed on Eric Lindros at 116, so you see how sometimes the draft list doesn't mean much. Nels Stewart and Bill Cowley are probably the top-2 steal of the draft so far. Good job both GM who selected them.

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02-02-2013, 03:09 PM
  #674
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How poor was Apps in his own end or how much did he just not give a ****? He would have had to be terrible for Cowley and Stastny to be ranked above him.

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02-02-2013, 03:18 PM
  #675
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You're ****ed! I understand that Apps should perhaps be taken outside the Top-50, but let's not go overboard. He's still a terrific hockey players, and a notch over both Cowley & Stastny. Now, if we're talking about value, I'll take Cowley now 10 time out of 10 before Syl Apps in the 40's.

and Nels Stewart was second on our list if we missed on Eric Lindros at 116, so you see how sometimes the draft list doesn't mean much. Nels Stewart and Bill Cowley are probably the top-2 steal of the draft so far. Good job both GM who selected them.
Maltsev is a bigger steal than those two.

Apps should never be drafted before Boucher and H. Richard, at a minimum. The rest of the centers are arguable, but until he's drafted after those two, he will remain overrated. To be honest, I would never take him over Forsberg, either, and I'd have to think about it between he and Lach. So yeah...Apps should fall, but not to Cowley's level.

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