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Redmond & Postma > Hainsey & Clitsome?

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:34 PM
  #51
bottleCAPS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Well there comes a point, bro, where you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a little knowledge goes a long long way.

Like I said at the beginning of the year, I hope that the fences between Ron and the fans get mended and we re sign him. A properly used Hainsey makes this team better, not worse.

The most frustrating thing is the Hainsey detractors won't answer that post. They will just let it slide and come back with the same incorrect view of what is happening because Ron may have deflected a puck into his net.
Winnipeg's confirmation bias is delicious.

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02-02-2013, 04:44 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by bottleCAPS View Post
Winnipeg's confirmation bias is delicious.
I'm sorry, but this post means nothing to me.

Hainsey's detractors need to come back with solid EVIDENCE that he is somehow not living up to team expectations or where he should be in his role.

My mind is never set in stone when it comes to a player. However when someone's only critique is he deflected a puck into his own net, a silly picture, or a vague statement, I will side with facts, thank you.

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02-02-2013, 04:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Just for the sake of discussion, without looking at free agency and trading him for a draft pick or so at the deadline, who would you put in his #4 spot (including PK) and what would the overall defense look like in your opinion for the remainder of the season.
I'm no Hawker, but I'll answer your question. Without looking at FA, there is no one to fill his role. Even if Postma and Redmond develop into fringe top 4 d-men, I don't think either could fill the specific role that Hainsey fills (most notably on the PK).

You probably can't answer this, but do you think Hainsey would re-sign here? If I was given some level of confidence that he would, then I would be a lot less willing to devote mental energy towards what his trade value might be.

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02-02-2013, 04:56 PM
  #54
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Tough to say after game 8 whether we have an internal replacement for Hainsey for next year. Maybe it's Trouba for 2014, though.

I'm not sure you want to sign Hainsey for a multiyear deal. (For the record, I like him and grew a lot of respect for him during the lockout.) But with Buff, Toby, Bogo here long term, and Trouba, Postma, and Redmond around, do we want to commit top 4 money to Ron?

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02-02-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I'm sorry, but this post means nothing to me.

Hainsey's detractors need to come back with solid EVIDENCE that he is somehow not living up to team expectations or where he should be in his role.

My mind is never set in stone when it comes to a player. However when someone's only critique is he deflected a puck into his own net, a silly picture, or a vague statement, I will side with facts, thank you.
i was agreeing with your point. people will ignore that Hainsey has been playing over his head and achieving successful results because it doesn't agree with their overarching view that he stinks.

those same people will then point to him when he's on the ice and say "see, out there for another goal against. trade him. etc."

and anyone saying Cltisome > anyone is out of their element.

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02-02-2013, 04:58 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
I'm no Hawker, but I'll answer your question. Without looking at FA, there is no one to fill his role. Even if Postma and Redmond develop into fringe top 4 d-men, I don't think either could fill the specific role that Hainsey fills (most notably on the PK).

You probably can't answer this, but do you think Hainsey would re-sign here? If I was given some level of confidence that he would, then I would be a lot less willing to devote mental energy towards what his trade value might be.
Honestly I don't know the entire situation but at this moment I would say it's about a 50/50 chance. I believe there were talks about working together a new contract awhile back...

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02-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #57
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Sorry, thought the question of who would replace Hainsey was a joke.

Just plug in the next guy on the depth chart.

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02-02-2013, 05:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
Sorry, thought the question of who would replace Hainsey was a joke.

Just plug in the next guy on the depth chart.
Let me re-ask the question.
Who on the team (besides Bogosian, Enstrom and Byfuglien) could take the minutes Hainsey does and do a better job. Remember, Hainsey defensively plays the toughest minutes on the team.
We already know from last two seasons that it isn't Stuart. So that leaves Redmond, Postma, Clitsome and Kulda:
*Redmond makes good decisions usually in the Dzone but even IceCaps fans have gotten angry at him for his defensive lapses in an AHL level.
*Kulda I think could potentially be at par and maybe eventually better few years down the road, but right now we have no idea if we'll ever see him in a Jets' jersey again
*Postma, no. Not in shutdown role. Not now. Not ever.
*Clitsome.... Ha!


Trouba I think will join Bogosian, Enstrom and Byfuglien into the top4 but if he follows normal high-end D prospects progression he will most likely be:
1 more year of NCAA + 1 year of AHL/NHL bouncing or 2 more years of NCAA
then 1 year of sheltered NHL role
then finally starts tough minutes

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02-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
If you want a response to that post, you should quote someone or address them directly.
Not sure if you are lumping me in with the Hainsey haters because I talked about trading him in this thread, but my point was not that Hainsey sucks. Actually the opposite, I was saying that we CANNOT afford to lose him for nothing.
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I don't like to do that, hence not responding to a particular poster.

My post was in response to the many I see that say that Hainsey sucks, simple as that. It was not directed at you or anyone specifically.
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
I fail to see where Hainsey would be rated above a C+ in any area of his game.

I'd suggest he's not terrible in any facet, but he excels nowhere. He is a mediocre defenceman. His calibre of play is easily replaceable in free agency, or from within an organization .

It's telling when a player's value is maximized by his playing less and only in certain situations.

He's not an above average NHL player by any measure. He's just a decent NHLer who will silently fade off into the sunset eventually. No one will mourn his career.
Well, Hawker, seeing as there was a suggestion that we direct our concerns about uninformed Hainsey-bashing directly at the poster(s) involved, allow me to respond to you directly.
Hainsey's ability has been objectively analysed on these boards ad nauseum. Earlier on this thread Garret made reference to where he would fit (top 4) on the majority of NHL clubs, with reference to specific statistical measures. I am sure if you asked him to reproduce more of his D efficiency data, he would happily do so.
Last year, Hainsey logged over 20 min per game, played the hardest minutes, and still came out with the best plus minus of any of our D. This year, he is trending in a similar direction.
There is not a shred of evidence to suggest he is a "mediocre" defence man.

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02-02-2013, 05:42 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Well there comes a point, bro, where you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a little knowledge goes a long long way.

Like I said at the beginning of the year, I hope that the fences between Ron and the fans get mended and we re sign him. A properly used Hainsey makes this team better, not worse.

The most frustrating thing is the Hainsey detractors won't answer that post. They will just let it slide and come back with the same incorrect view of what is happening because Ron may have deflected a puck into his net.
I find Ron Hainsey to be another soft defenseman on a team that's chock-full of soft defensemen. He rolls out the red carpet for opposition players who want to camp out in front of Pavelec. He kind of typifies the lack of fire that is the hallmark of this Jets team at its worst.

I couldn't believe how fired up he was about the labour issues during the lockout...I don't agree with Lawless too often, but I've never agreed with him more than when he said "if Hainsey showed this kind of battle in his everyday game as an NHLer, he'd be a lot more useful." Amen!

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02-02-2013, 05:46 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
I find Ron Hainsey to be another soft defenseman on a team that's chock-full of soft defensemen. He rolls out the red carpet for opposition players who want to camp out in front of Pavelec. He kind of typifies the lack of fire that is the hallmark of this Jets team at its worst.

I couldn't believe how fired up he was about the labour issues during the lockout...I don't agree with Lawless too often, but I've never agreed with him more than when he said "if Hainsey showed this kind of battle in his everyday game as an NHLer, he'd be a lot more useful." Amen!
If he does really "roll out the carpet" for the other team... how come his results consistently are better than a lot of players who don't "roll out the carpet"???

If he's more effective than he's more effective even if it's in a way that people don't like.

I get it... people want Hainsey to play more physical. I can and do agree with that... it's every other comment that most people say that can erk me.

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02-02-2013, 06:03 PM
  #62
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Who's gonna replace our UFA's? We do employ pro scouts, do we not? Where's our Conacher or Kostka?

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02-02-2013, 06:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
If he does really "roll out the carpet" for the other team... how come his results consistently are better than a lot of players who don't "roll out the carpet"???

If he's more effective than he's more effective even if it's in a way that people don't like.

I get it... people want Hainsey to play more physical. I can and do agree with that... it's every other comment that most people say that can erk me.
I'm not sure who these Jet defenders are who DON'T roll out the red carpet - Stuart I guess? Anyway, Hainsey has been pretty lucky with on-ice save percentage at evens. He was on the ice for 5 of TB's first 6 goals last night, 4 of Florida's 6 goals the night before. He's been pretty bad on the PK - and in situations where the other team sets up and plants a guy in front of the net, Hainsey's useless.

I don't know if Hainsey is capable of playing more a more physical game, but I think that a big part of the Jets' problem on D and the PK right now is that there's only one guy throwing his weight around on D.

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02-02-2013, 06:43 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
I'm not sure who these Jet defenders are who DON'T roll out the red carpet - Stuart I guess? Anyway, Hainsey has been pretty lucky with on-ice save percentage at evens. He was on the ice for 5 of TB's first 6 goals last night, 4 of Florida's 6 goals the night before. He's been pretty bad on the PK - and in situations where the other team sets up and plants a guy in front of the net, Hainsey's useless.

I don't know if Hainsey is capable of playing more a more physical game, but I think that a big part of the Jets' problem on D and the PK right now is that there's only one guy throwing his weight around on D.
You may have to wait for Trouba, because even Buff is not physical for his size.
I always admired Stuart's physicality, intensity, shot-blocking, etc... but if you look under the surface, much of that is to make up for limitations in speed and finesse. Hainsey looks less intense on the ice, but is much more efficient as a player and this is borne out statistically. Unfortunately, it does not garner him any love when the team is losing.
To reiterate, no one is saying Hainsey is Scott Stevens, but he gets the job done for a #4...and appearances can be deceiving.

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02-02-2013, 07:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
I'm not sure who these Jet defenders are who DON'T roll out the red carpet - Stuart I guess? Anyway, Hainsey has been pretty lucky with on-ice save percentage at evens. He was on the ice for 5 of TB's first 6 goals last night, 4 of Florida's 6 goals the night before. He's been pretty bad on the PK - and in situations where the other team sets up and plants a guy in front of the net, Hainsey's useless.

I don't know if Hainsey is capable of playing more a more physical game, but I think that a big part of the Jets' problem on D and the PK right now is that there's only one guy throwing his weight around on D.
Hainsey's OnIceSv% is/was very inflated... I was looking before at it being .970 before the TBL game and kind of thought to myself uh,oh that's going to come down... I think I posted it on the GDT before the game too haha.

He still suppresses shots against enough to make his goals against still within a #4 even without the nice sv%...

Also, players tend to be able to manipulate sh%/sv% to a degree. Malkin, Crosby and Stamkos have done it their whole careers (boosting personal and OnIceSh%). Byfuglien as a defensemen always has had below team average OnIceSv%, just like Hainsey has always tended to have above... but that's minimal.

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02-02-2013, 07:05 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
I'm not sure who these Jet defenders are who DON'T roll out the red carpet - Stuart I guess? Anyway, Hainsey has been pretty lucky with on-ice save percentage at evens. He was on the ice for 5 of TB's first 6 goals last night, 4 of Florida's 6 goals the night before. He's been pretty bad on the PK - and in situations where the other team sets up and plants a guy in front of the net, Hainsey's useless.

I don't know if Hainsey is capable of playing more a more physical game, but I think that a big part of the Jets' problem on D and the PK right now is that there's only one guy throwing his weight around on D.
You should not hitting on the PK. That is the one thing that every coach stresses. You go out throwing hits and you pull yourself out of position and results in goals against. Pressure them yes, but you need to maintain position on the PK.

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02-02-2013, 07:22 PM
  #67
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You may have to wait for Trouba, because even Buff is not physical for his size.
I always admired Stuart's physicality, intensity, shot-blocking, etc... but if you look under the surface, much of that is to make up for limitations in speed and finesse. Hainsey looks less intense on the ice, but is much more efficient as a player and this is borne out statistically. Unfortunately, it does not garner him any love when the team is losing.
To reiterate, no one is saying Hainsey is Scott Stevens, but he gets the job done for a #4...and appearances can be deceiving.
But we've got an over-abundance of that non-intense D. During the home opener against Ottawa, Michaleck or some other Ottawa forward came in and snowed Pavelec after he'd frozen the puck and our D (I think it was Hainsey, but doesn't really matter) just skated away! WTF? I thought to myself at that point, Well, I guess Pavs is going to have to wait for Trouba to get here before he can expect not to get snowed... Now, snowing the goalie should be a penalty anyway, but you can't let the other team get away with that! I think we can all agree that if it had been Gary Bettman skating in and deducting 12% of Pavs' pay, Hainsey would've sliced his head off with the carbon fibre blade of his stick.

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02-02-2013, 07:37 PM
  #68
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For me this entire thread is a bit premature and knee-jerk over the last few games.

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02-02-2013, 07:40 PM
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But we've got an over-abundance of that non-intense D. During the home opener against Ottawa, Michaleck or some other Ottawa forward came in and snowed Pavelec after he'd frozen the puck and our D (I think it was Hainsey, but doesn't really matter) just skated away! WTF? I thought to myself at that point, Well, I guess Pavs is going to have to wait for Trouba to get here before he can expect not to get snowed... Now, snowing the goalie should be a penalty anyway, but you can't let the other team get away with that! I think we can all agree that if it had been Gary Bettman skating in and deducting 12% of Pavs' pay, Hainsey would've sliced his head off with the carbon fibre blade of his stick.
We should just hang a Bettman photo on the outside of his visor and watch him run around like a raging bull.

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02-02-2013, 07:45 PM
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You should not hitting on the PK. That is the one thing that every coach stresses. You go out throwing hits and you pull yourself out of position and results in goals against. Pressure them yes, but you need to maintain position on the PK.
Well, I was more suggesting that physical intensity is lacking on the Jets PK, not that our D should be trying to blow guys up with bonecrushers at every opportunity. Does every coach also stress leaving opposition forwards unmolested in the crease on the PK? Cause Ron Hainsey has received that message loud-and-clear!

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02-02-2013, 08:24 PM
  #71
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i was agreeing with your point. people will ignore that Hainsey has been playing over his head and achieving successful results because it doesn't agree with their overarching view that he stinks.

those same people will then point to him when he's on the ice and say "see, out there for another goal against. trade him. etc."

and anyone saying Cltisome > anyone is out of their element.
Haha I guess I really didn't understand your post

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02-02-2013, 08:26 PM
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Well there comes a point, bro, where you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a little knowledge goes a long long way.

Like I said at the beginning of the year, I hope that the fences between Ron and the fans get mended and we re sign him. A properly used Hainsey makes this team better, not worse.

The most frustrating thing is the Hainsey detractors won't answer that post. They will just let it slide and come back with the same incorrect view of what is happening because Ron may have deflected a puck into his net.
Wow... everyone is entitled to their own opinion, bro. I personally think you are incorrect with it comes to Hainsey.

I think he's game is vastly different since last season, lack of physical play, poor decision making and all around lack of involvement. He has been logging hard minutes for the Atlanta/Winnipeg franchise for years. Last year he was engaged while he was on the ice, and yes, he would log a less minutes per game (mainly due to his PP role this season) this season he's much less engaged.

He's making mental mistakes, seems he left his focus in books.

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02-02-2013, 08:41 PM
  #73
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Hainsy is solid/unspectacular but does his job reasonably well. I personally would like to upgrade him but the FA crop this summer doesn't look that appealing so I would be fine with extending him for a couple of years and 2.5-2.75 million. Him and Bogosian are a pretty good fit and I would be fine with rolling with it for a couple more years. I think our third pairng will get a lot better as Redmond/Postma get more comfortable. I think both are a big upgrade on Clitsome. We however need one more defenseman that is capable of killing penalties at a high level to pair with Bogosianon the top PK unit, which would allow Ron and Stuart/Enstorm to play on the second unit.

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02-02-2013, 09:46 PM
  #74
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Doesn't matter that they're a better combo, Jets management isn't smart enough to make that decision, BTW Oduya is the Hawks best D right now. LOL

Hainsy Stuart Clitsome Wellwood will retire Jets

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02-02-2013, 09:50 PM
  #75
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Doesn't matter that they're a better combo, Jets management isn't smart enough to make that decision, BTW Oduya is the Hawks best D right now. LOL

Hainsy Stuart Clitsome Wellwood will retire Jets
Please god I hope not

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