HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Best Enforcers of All Time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-27-2012, 09:52 PM
  #76
85highlander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Nice find.

Killion, was this published in a book or a magazine article? Do you know what the original source was? I'd love to read it.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html


So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.


Last edited by 85highlander: 03-27-2012 at 10:30 PM.
85highlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-27-2012, 11:21 PM
  #77
LeBlondeDemon10
Registered User
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html


So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.
I'm surprised Wendel Clark isn't on his list. He beat Probert at least once, maybe twice and he could throw them.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-27-2012, 11:25 PM
  #78
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,796
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html


So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting read.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 10:33 AM
  #79
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
Not sure anyone is trying to perpetuate a myth - the clear historical record is enough to go on -- no embellishment required.

1. To qualify, Bobby Orr was NOT an enforcer. This is not being stated. However, neither should his fighting prowess be diminished.

2. Not sure what qualifies someone as a "great" fighter, but Orr was certainly way better than "good" -- and certainly much better than above average, at least when looking at the numbers.

3. Not sure what ratios people use to quantify these sorts of things, but for the sake of evaluation:

a) A sucky fighter loses more than he wins.
b) An average fighter wins some, loses some, and draws some -- roughly an equal amount of the time.
c) An above average fighter wins more than he loses.
d) Better than above average fighter wins the vast majority of his fights.
e) An excellent fighter hardly ever loses a fight.


Looking at the historical record, in person and via video, Bobby Orr is imo unquestionably in category "e" (some may say "d") -- that is the historical record, no myth needed.
So quality of competition doesnt matter? Orr never or rarely fought a heavyweight. He's not an excellent fighter in any way. He was a tough player who could throw em.



Is this an excellent fighter? Holding on for dear life and suddenly gets balls when another player jumps in.






where is this excellent fighter u keep mentioning?

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #80
85highlander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So quality of competition doesnt matter? Orr never or rarely fought a heavyweight. He's not an excellent fighter in any way. He was a tough player who could throw em. Is this an excellent fighter? Holding on for dear life and suddenly gets balls when another player jumps in. Where is this excellent fighter u keep mentioning?
Oh my, is this the BEST you can do to try and discredit Orr? I didn't say he knocked everyone out ala Mike Tyson, but as far as hockey fights go, he was an excellent fighter.

People trying to discredit Orr in this regard on this thread should do some more homework. I think this post written by an esteemed boxing guru holds more weight than this weak display at disparaging Orr -- yes, it's already been posted, but it bears more weight than what you could ever say.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html

Of the videos you chose, only the Edestrand one has Orr at the disadvantage, as he doesn't bother taking any swings, a rare occurrence for him. In fact, a wise play by Edestrand, a far inferior player taking Orr off the ice for five minutes.

The Quinn fight was just getting started (nice video, btw, I edited and posted that to youtube several months ago), no way to make a final judgment on that other than Orr being on top beating the snot out of him in the end.

The Mikita b**** slap was Orr baiting him for previous stick work.

Not sure why you showed the Magnuson fight -- might as well put the other one up where Orr beats the living tar out of him. Never mind, I'll post it here, with a few others.

And the Hextall one proves what...?

Why not show Orr picking Clement off the ice and throwing him down:



Or giving away several inches to Carlton and pile driving him:


Magnuson had his head pounded into the ice here:


Or taking a significantly larger Ted Irvine down:



Bobby Orr was tenacious as a player, including the scruffs he was involved in. He was not a gentleman's fighter, and was more than happy to keep swinging after the bell, on the ice, etc.

I never claimed he was the number one fighter of all-time, but he was way ABOVE average, and I would say EXCELLENT -- usually on top by the end, throwing the last punches -- in the hockey world, for those who like this sort of thing, this is commendable behavior!


Last edited by 85highlander: 03-30-2012 at 08:00 PM.
85highlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 12:04 PM
  #81
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
Oh my, is this the BEST you can do to try and discredit Orr? I didn't say he knocked everyone out ala Mike Tyson, but as far as hockey fights go, he was an excellent fighter.

People trying to discredit Orr in this regard on this thread should do some more homework. I think this post written by an esteemed boxing guru holds more weight than this weak display at disparaging Orr -- yes, it's already been posted, but it bears more weight than what you could ever say.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html

Of the videos you chose, only the Edestrand one has Orr at the disadvantage, as he doesn't bother taking any swings, a rare occurrence for him. in fact, a wise play by Edestrand, a far inferior player taking Orr off the ice for five minutes.

The Quinn fight was just getting started, no way to make a final judgment on that other than Orr being on top beating the snot out of him in the end.

The Mikita b**** slap was Orr baiting him for previous stick work.

Not sure why you showed the Magnuson fight -- might as well put the other one up where Orr beats the living tar out of him. Never mind, I'll post it here, with a few others.

And the Hextall one proves what...?

Why not show Orr picking Clement off the ice and throwing him down:



Or giving away several inches to Carlton and pile driving him:


Magnuson had his head pounded into the ice here:


Or taking a significantly larger Ted Irvine down:



Bobby Orr was tenacious as a player, including the scruffs he was involved in. He was not a gentleman's fighter, and was more than happy to keep swinging after the bell, on the ice, etc.

I never claimed he was the number one fighter of all-time, but he was way ABOVE average, and I would say EXCELLENT -- usually on top by the end, throwing the last punches -- in the hockey world, for those who like this sort of thing, this is commendable behavior!
So basically, if the guy is larger and the other guy manage to wrestle him down, hes an excellent fighter.

These videos proves jkxs point. Orr was an above average fighter but definitly nothing "special" in that area. He was special enough in others.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 12:33 PM
  #82
leeroggy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,153
vCash: 500
Let's remember that the title of the thread is 'Best Enforcer', which means someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman, not a skilled player who was important to the team's offense. Given those criteria you can't name Probert, Robinson, Howe, Gillies, Nystrom, Bridgeman, etc., who were legitimate players.

So given that, my list would be:

Kocur (most feared fighting opponent of his time)
Dan Maloney - similar fear factor
Dave Schultz
John Ferguson
Paul Laus - boy was he underrated!
Nick Fotiu
Bob 'Battleship' Kelly
Derek Boogard - no one mentioned him yet?????
Dave Brown
George Laracque

I don't see why Semenko was so highly thought of, most of the YouTube stuff has him just basically wrestling.

Next Tier:

Semenko (generously)
Tiger Williams
Tony Twist
Reggie Fleming
Bob 'Hound Dog' Kelly
Eric Cairns
Orland Kurtenbach
Troy Crowder - another VERY underrated fighter
Stu Grimson
Tie Domi - the only real 'enforcer' for his size - neither Jonathan nor Howatt really filled that role

Well, debate away!!

leeroggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 12:34 PM
  #83
85highlander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So basically, if the guy is larger and the other guy manage to wrestle him down, hes an excellent fighter.

These videos proves jkxs point. Orr was an above average fighter but definitly nothing "special" in that area. He was special enough in others.
Sorry -- they don't.

Orr's teammates esteemed him to be their team's best fighter though they would rather he didn't because of his value to the team; his cumulative PIMs during his years in Boston were the highest of the Big, Bad Bruins; he consistently jumped in to assist teammates; He was rarely beaten and very often took his opponent down to the ice (rarely seen today). Call it what you want. Too me, and many others (including the linked article to a known boxing guru) he was just as special with this part of his game as with others - excellent.

85highlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 12:35 PM
  #84
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,562
vCash: 500
Bobby Orr was always known as a tough customer and I do remember him winning a vast majority of his fights. For that it would not be wrong to consider him an excellent fighter, certainly above average without a doubt.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-28-2012, 01:14 PM
  #85
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
Sorry -- they don't.

Orr's teammates esteemed him to be their team's best fighter though they would rather he didn't because of his value to the team; his cumulative PIMs during his years in Boston were the highest of the Big, Bad Bruins; he consistently jumped in to assist teammates; He was rarely beaten and very often took his opponent down to the ice (rarely seen today). Call it what you want. Too me, and many others (including the linked article to a known boxing guru) he was just as special with this part of his game as with others - excellent.
To take your opponent down to the ice is not a great fighting skill nor the signs of a great enforcer. Orr wasnt feared because he could fight it is as simple as that. Now Robinson was an excellent fighter.

Taking someone down is the signs of a good wrestler. Going in close and punch blindly at the opponent until you fall on top of him is not.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2012, 12:40 PM
  #86
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html


So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.
Maybe because its not true? According to dropyourgloves, Orr fought 5 times in each of his first seasons and averaged ~7 fights per season in the next four.

One of those first season fights was when he jumped Reg Fleming so not really a fight and I wouldnt call the likes of Bill Hicke, Brian Conacher, Doug Roberts, Larry Jeffrey and Yvan Cournoyer for heavyweights. So good for him that he fought those players. Guess we should call Carcillo an excellent fighter for taking on Gaborik.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2012, 10:18 PM
  #87
Ed Wood
Registered User
 
Ed Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,870
vCash: 500
John Ferguson and Bob Probert were the scariest heavyweights. Pound for pound I'm partial to Stan Jonathan and Chris Neil. All four of those guys could play some hockey as well.

Ed Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2012, 11:41 PM
  #88
Ogie Goldthorpe
Piloted Ogre Hog
 
Ogie Goldthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NS via BC
Posts: 2,325
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeroggy View Post
Let's remember that the title of the thread is 'Best Enforcer', which means someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman, not a skilled player who was important to the team's offense. Given those criteria you can't name Probert, Robinson, Howe, Gillies, Nystrom, Bridgeman, etc., who were legitimate players.

So given that, my list would be:

Kocur (most feared fighting opponent of his time)
Dan Maloney - similar fear factor
Dave Schultz
John Ferguson
Paul Laus - boy was he underrated!
Nick Fotiu
Bob 'Battleship' Kelly
Derek Boogard - no one mentioned him yet?????
Dave Brown
George Laracque

I don't see why Semenko was so highly thought of, most of the YouTube stuff has him just basically wrestling.

Next Tier:

Semenko (generously)
Tiger Williams
Tony Twist
Reggie Fleming
Bob 'Hound Dog' Kelly
Eric Cairns
Orland Kurtenbach
Troy Crowder - another VERY underrated fighter
Stu Grimson
Tie Domi - the only real 'enforcer' for his size - neither Jonathan nor Howatt really filled that role

Well, debate away!!
Oh come on... if Probert's not an ENFORCER, no one is. Sure, he had four 40+ point seasons (and one 39 point season)... often playing with Yzerman, whom he was protecting. His main role was to be the team's policeman, though.

Anyway, here's my top 2 tiers of post 1970 Enforcers (someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman), in no particular order...

Top Tier...
Bob Probert
Joey Kocur
Tony Twist
Chris Nilan
Dave Brown
Troy Crowder
Derek Boogard
Marty McSorley
Stu Grimson
Paul Laus

Next Tier...

Dave Semenko
George Laracque
Tim Hunter
Tie Domi
Gino Odjick
Dave Schultz
Sandy McCarthy
Jim McKenzie
Rob Ray
Nick Fotiu

Ogie Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2012, 05:50 AM
  #89
LeBlondeDemon10
Registered User
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
Oh come on... if Probert's not an ENFORCER, no one is. Sure, he had four 40+ point seasons (and one 39 point season)... often playing with Yzerman, whom he was protecting. His main role was to be the team's policeman, though.

Anyway, here's my top 2 tiers of post 1970 Enforcers (someone who's MAIN ROLE is to be the team's policeman), in no particular order...

Top Tier...
Bob Probert
Joey Kocur
Tony Twist
Chris Nilan
Dave Brown
Troy Crowder
Derek Boogard
Marty McSorley
Stu Grimson
Paul Laus

Next Tier...

Dave Semenko
George Laracque
Tim Hunter
Tie Domi
Gino Odjick
Dave Schultz
Sandy McCarthy
Jim McKenzie
Rob Ray
Nick Fotiu
I still think you got to throw Wendell Clark in there even though he brought more to the table than the rest. He fought most of those guys, he was always the first to defend his teammates and was as tough as anyone who ever played the game.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2012, 10:09 AM
  #90
Ogie Goldthorpe
Piloted Ogre Hog
 
Ogie Goldthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NS via BC
Posts: 2,325
vCash: 500
Wendell was a legit tough guy, but I wouldn't call him an enforcer. He had other important jobs on the ice that he did just as well. You couldn't really say that about Boogard.

If we're talking All-Time Tough Guys, he makes the list, along with guys like Tocchet.

Ogie Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2012, 12:14 PM
  #91
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So basically, if the guy is larger and the other guy manage to wrestle him down, hes an excellent fighter.

These videos proves jkxs point. Orr was an above average fighter but definitly nothing "special" in that area. He was special enough in others.
Don't you mean your grandfathers?

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2012, 12:16 PM
  #92
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Don't you mean your grandfathers?
How should he know it's my grandfather?

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 07:35 PM
  #93
SantaClaraShark
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 20
vCash: 500
The best enforcer of all time?

Someone that could fight like an mma fighter and, at the same time, contribute some points?

SantaClaraShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 07:47 PM
  #94
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,951
vCash: 500
Stan Johnathon John Fergerson Tiger Williams

thom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 08:29 PM
  #95
Le CH
Registered User
 
Le CH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,237
vCash: 500
Search function is useful...

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...light=enforcer

My vote for purely enforcer role = Probert

Le CH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 09:44 PM
  #96
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,357
vCash: 500
Chris Nilan is still my personal favourite.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 09:49 PM
  #97
BobbyAwe
Registered User
 
BobbyAwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Carolina
Country: United States
Posts: 1,883
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...95546-sun.html


So, why would a boxing coach place Bobby Orr on this list... -- to perpetuate a myth? ....smh...some people have very bad memories.
Boxing and hockey fights are two different sciences.

This guy is a joke anyway, he picks Howe as the greatest fighter ever - another myth.

BobbyAwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 09:53 PM
  #98
Ogie Goldthorpe
Piloted Ogre Hog
 
Ogie Goldthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NS via BC
Posts: 2,325
vCash: 500
Deleted my comment

Didn't notice I'd already posted pretty much the same thing.


Last edited by Ogie Goldthorpe: 02-01-2013 at 09:58 PM.
Ogie Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 10:17 PM
  #99
RealisticLeaf55
Hurt a Smurf
 
RealisticLeaf55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ottawa, On.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,846
vCash: 2090
Tony the hitman Twist gets my vote. Watched him and prayed to god Wendel would never throw down with him. Guy was a machine.

RealisticLeaf55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2013, 07:07 PM
  #100
BamBamCam*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle/Boston
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You mean the one where Quinn is in control until one of Orr's teammates grabs Quinn from behind? Yes, I believe it is.
Orr could change water into wine and somehow you would find fault with it. We get it, he's a Bruin and you hate him.

BamBamCam* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.