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Old
02-02-2013, 10:24 PM
  #76
FolignoQuantumLeap
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Here's your final 4 from '08: Dallas, Detroit, Penguins and Philadelphia

Zetterberg, Crosby, Briere and Mike Modano who had 57 points that year, were the their centers. I see 3 hall of famers and Briere who's coming up on 650 pts in the NHL. You want to throw Fisher in that group? You start a thread asking why this team didn't do better. I assume that means why they didn't win the Cup or at least come closer. This is clearly one of the reasons. Your assertion that they had elite center depth is false. They had depth, but were clearly overmatched by real cup contenders (Hello Pittsburgh).

We had one line and little else. Bad goaltending, bad defensive group, little in terms of scoring depth. There wasn't much Murray could do. Could he have done a better job? Probably. But to get back to being a Cup contender he was going to have to find a #1D, #1 top 10 goalie, a second line C or at least another top line player to play on the second line and somehow stay under a tight cap. They gave it a go with Spezza, Heatley and Alfredsson. It didn't work and the decision to rebuild was the right one.

This thread just seems like a Murray witch hunt to me. Its been done. The horse has been turned into a puddle of glue.

EDIT: and the Devils 2nd line C was Elias. 55 pts, 74 games. Another better player than Fisher.

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02-02-2013, 10:33 PM
  #77
inthewings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Here's your final 4 from '08: Dallas, Detroit, Penguins and Philadelphia

Zetterberg, Crosby, Briere and Mike Modano who had 57 points that year, were the their centers. I see 3 hall of famers and Briere who's coming up on 650 pts in the NHL. You want to throw Fisher in that group? You start a thread asking why this team didn't do better. I assume that means why they didn't win the Cup or at least come closer. This is clearly one of the reasons. Your assertion that they had elite center depth is false. They had depth, but were clearly overmatched by real cup contenders (Hello Pittsburgh).

We had one line and little else. Bad goaltending, bad defensive group, little in terms of scoring depth. There wasn't much Murray could do. Could he have done a better job? Probably. But to get back to being a Cup contender he was going to have to find a #1D, #1 top 10 goalie, a second line C or at least another top line player to play on the second line. They gave it a go with Spezza, Heatley and Alfredsson. It didn't work and the decision to rebuild was the right one.

This thread just seems like a Murray witch hunt to me. Its been done. The horse has been turned into a puddle of glue.

EDIT: and the Devils 2nd line C was Elias. 55 pts, 74 games. Another better player than Fisher.
Not that your anectdotal argument really warrants much in the way of a response, but the 2nd-line centers of last year's 4 finalists were Mike Richards, Henrique/Zajac, Derek Stepan, and Hanzal/Vermette/Langkow. None were better last year than Mike Fisher was here.

I honestly can't believe there's an argument against Fisher as a good 2nd-line C.

Edit: You're making things up again. If Elias was their 2nd line C in 07/08, Zacac (34 points in 80 games) or Madden was their first line C. I'm done with you.

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02-02-2013, 10:42 PM
  #78
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Why bother discussing a topic you're going to blatantly lie about? Fisher averaged over 20 goals and 45 points a season in his last 5 years here while winning >50% of his faceoffs and playing elite defense. That's a 2nd line-C, and a very good one.

Similarly, Vermette had developed into a 40+ point C with great defense and elite faceoff skills, and did it without any PP time. Both him and Fisher were very, very good players, and clearly worthy of 2nd-line duties.

This team had 5 top 6 forwards (3 of them elite), with guys like Kelly, Neil, and Eaves, and Donovan more than capable of playing quality bottom-6 minutes.

They also had 3 top-4 D-men in the middle of their prime. It isn't a stretch to say that roster could have been better-managed, and that with more shrewd decisions could have continued to contend. After all, Gillis inherited a similar situation in Vancouver.
I am not lying about the Sens attempting to upgrade at 2nd line centre for the entire time Fisher was there. Both Mike Comrie and Matt Cullen were both acquired for this very reason. Vermette was a winger on this team (Kelly was the 3rd line centre) so I have no idea why you keep listing him there.

Are you the weird poster who had the weird fixation on Mike Fisher and have since changed your name? If so, that would explain a lot about your arguments. If not, I apologize but you need to go back and look at what actually happened during that time period.

Why is Patrick Eaves even being mentioned in this? He was a terrible hockey player who had an out of character strong rookie season. Sean *** Donovan? Am I allowed to list every 4th line plug that played on every other team for comparison?

It's a bad premise. I told you why the team was inevitably ready to take a slide when Muckler left. No amount of tinkering that Murray could do would make up for the fact that the team had no young cheap assets in their system to either use as trade chips or move into the lineup and contribute.

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02-02-2013, 10:54 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Edit: You're making things up again. If Elias was their 2nd line C in 07/08, Zacac (34 points in 80 games) or Madden was their first line C. I'm done with you.
Zajac was their first line center with Parise. They played together for years as did Elias and Gionta. Madden was their 3rd line C and had an amazing year offensively by his standards and played on the PP.

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02-02-2013, 10:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DefenseMinister View Post
I am not lying about the Sens attempting to upgrade at 2nd line centre for the entire time Fisher was there. Both Mike Comrie and Matt Cullen were both acquired for this very reason. Vermette was a winger on this team (Kelly was the 3rd line centre) so I have no idea why you keep listing him there.

Are you the weird poster who had the weird fixation on Mike Fisher and have since changed your name? If so, that would explain a lot about your arguments. If not, I apologize but you need to go back and look at what actually happened during that time period.

Why is Patrick Eaves even being mentioned in this? He was a terrible hockey player who had an out of character strong rookie season. Sean *** Donovan? Am I allowed to list every 4th line plug that played on every other team for comparison?

It's a bad premise. I told you why the team was inevitably ready to take a slide when Muckler left. No amount of tinkering that Murray could do would make up for the fact that the team had no young cheap assets in their system to either use as trade chips or move into the lineup and contribute.
It's funny. The last time I upset this many people was before the 2010-11 season when I argued that the team had spent money on the wrong pieces and would struggle to contend. Now, two years later, at least one of the posters I was arguing with (not you) is claiming that the fall from competitiveness was inevitable after 2006-07.

All this to say, I feel like people have a hard time being objective about Bryan Murray. I think he's a middle-of the pack GM who drafts well but hasn't been great at putting together NHL rosters.

At the time Mike Fisher was a 2nd line C, and Antoine was a 40-point C/W who was nails at faceoff and great defensively and put those 40 points up without PP time. There's no argument against these guys as top-6 players.

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02-02-2013, 10:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Zajac was their first line center with Parise. They played together for years as did Elias and Gionta. Madden was their 3rd line C and had an amazing year offensively by his standards and played on the PP.
No, Zajac was a sophomore who played 16:44 a game and had 34 points in 80 games. Elias was an established star who played 18:28 a game. Calling Elias the the 2nd line C is intellectually dishonest.

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02-02-2013, 10:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
It's funny.
Your post didn't address anything in the quoted post.


Last edited by HavlatMach9: 02-02-2013 at 11:03 PM. Reason: -_-
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02-02-2013, 11:00 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
No, Zajac was a sophomore who played 16:44 a game and had 34 points in 80 games. Elias was an established star who played 18:28 a game. Calling Elias the the 2nd line C is intellectually dishonest.
That was a very static roster. Elias plays wing at time and center at others. They'd have different guys with Gionta and Elias after Gomez left and broke up the EGG line. Elias started playing more center. Sometimes wing with a variety of Cs. I'd number Parise's line #1. Elias was their #2C more often than any other player.

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02-02-2013, 11:07 PM
  #84
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We have made the playoffs in three years out of the five Murray has been GM, while at the same time undergoing a quick rebuild (re-tool might be a better word).

He's been fine.

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02-02-2013, 11:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
We have made the playoffs in three years out of the five Murray has been GM, while at the same time undergoing a quick rebuild (re-tool might be a better word).

He's been fine.
I think the last two years have been the best of his tenure. He's been allowed to collect young assets via the draft without worrying too much about the NHL roster and he's done a great job of it.

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02-02-2013, 11:15 PM
  #86
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Center: Spezza, Fisher, Kelly (Solid)
Wingers: Heatley, Alfredsson, Foligno, Vermette (Solid)
Defense: Meszaros, Volchenkov, Phillips (Weak)
Goalie: Gerber/Leclaire (Eww)

Redden's decline left no one to anchor the defense, and it was immobile (made even more immobile by Murray's signings). Goalies also never worked out for us. The forwards with a 1st pairing dman and an average goalie would be a playoff team. He couldn't get either and injuries to Alfie and Spezza hurt this team.

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02-02-2013, 11:19 PM
  #87
inthewings
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Center: Spezza, Fisher, Kelly (Solid)
Wingers: Heatley, Alfredsson, Foligno, Vermette (Solid)
Defense: Meszaros, Volchenkov, Phillips (Weak)
Goalie: Gerber/Leclaire (Eww)

Redden's decline left no one to anchor the defense, and it was immobile (made even more immobile by Murray's signings). Goalies also never worked out for us. The forwards with a 1st pairing dman and an average goalie would be a playoff team. He couldn't get either and injuries to Alfie and Spezza hurt this team.
You're forgetting Corvo (who actually was a pretty good player), but yes the D needed help.

Also, Murray brought Leclaire.

I always though the worst part of the Heatley deal was failing to get Ehrhoff. Gillis stepped in and snatched him up as a salary dump.

Ehrhoff
Volchenkov
Phillips
Meszaros
Corvo

is actually a pretty nice group. Of course we would have had to bury Cheechoo.

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02-02-2013, 11:26 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
You're forgetting Corvo (who actually was a pretty good player), but yes the D needed help.

Also, Murray brought Leclaire.

I always though the worst part of the Heatley deal was failing to get Ehrhoff. Gillis stepped in and snatched him up as a salary dump.

Ehrhoff
Volchenkov
Phillips
Meszaros
Corvo

is actually a pretty nice group. Of course we would have had to bury Cheechoo.
That defense would be in the bottom 1/3 at best in today's NHL. Wouldn't have been much better 3-4 years ago either. I think you severely overrate Corvo and Meszaros. Corvo was good as a 5/6, Mez a 4/5 after his rookie campaign. They were far less useful when they were leaned on in big top 4 roles.

Especially in front of Gerber or Emery.

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02-02-2013, 11:38 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
We have made the playoffs in three years out of the five Murray has been GM, while at the same time undergoing a quick rebuild (re-tool might be a better word).

He's been fine.
Our AHL team is the youngest in the league yet first in the league. Almost half the team has players who could be top6 or top 4 defenders. We have a franchise goalie in the making posting up unheard of numbers.

Our team is top 3 in the east without our star center or our number 2 defender and we aren't even contending yet. Our core positions our locked up(C, 2NDC, 1D, 1G) with great supporting casts(2D, 3D, bottom 6ers, leaders, 1LW, 2RW) This isn't even including Zibanejad who I think will be a star in this league.

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02-02-2013, 11:38 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
That defense would be in the bottom 1/3 at best in today's NHL. Wouldn't have been much better 3-4 years ago either. I think you severely overrate Corvo and Meszaros. Corvo was good as a 5/6, Mez a 4/5 after his rookie campaign. They were far less useful when they were leaned on in big top 4 roles.

Especially in front of Gerber or Emery.
I think you're underrating these guys. Since 2007-08 mean performance breaks down something like:

Ehrhoff = 23 m/g number 1/2
Meszaros = 21 m/g number 3/4
Volechenkov = 19m/g number 4/5
Phillips = 21 m/g number 3/4
Corvo = 22 m/g number 3/4

Ehrhoff - Phillips
Meszaros - Volchenkov
Corvo -

That would be perfectly adequate. Certainly not bottom 3rd. Phillips, Corvo, and Volchenkov were all really good players, and the other two still are.

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02-02-2013, 11:42 PM
  #91
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Our AHL team is the youngest in the league yet first in the league. Almost half the team has players who could be top6 or top 4 defenders. We have a franchise goalie in the making posting up unheard of numbers.

Our team is top 3 in the east without our star center or our number 2 defender and we aren't even contending yet. Our core positions our locked up(C, 2NDC, 1D, 1G) with great supporting casts(2D, 3D, bottom 6ers, leaders, 1LW, 2RW) This isn't even including Zibanejad who I think will be a star in this league.
I like our youth as much as the next guy, but realistically Stone and Prince are the only decent bets for top-6/top-4 guys. Also, Lehner is a god.

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02-02-2013, 11:45 PM
  #92
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I like our youth as much as the next guy, but realistically Stone and Prince are the only decent bets for top-6/top-4 guys. Also, Lehner is a god.
I was mostly talking back before lock-out.

Silfver
Zibanejad
Prince
DaCosta
Pageau

Wiercioch
Boro
Claesson

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02-02-2013, 11:46 PM
  #93
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How would you compare Timonen to Ehrhoff? Which is better in your eyes?

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02-02-2013, 11:49 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I was mostly talking back before lock-out.

Silfver
Zibanejad
Prince
DaCosta
Pageau

Wiercioch
Boro
Claesson
Yeah, there's a ton of talent there, but guys like DaCosta, Pageau, Boro, and Claesson are loooooong shots for top-4/6 roles. I say that as probably the biggest Claesson fan on the forum.

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02-02-2013, 11:51 PM
  #95
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How would you compare Timonen to Ehrhoff? Which is better in your eyes?
Career? Timonen. Since 07-08, probably Ehrhoff.

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02-02-2013, 11:55 PM
  #96
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The current team lacks wingers. Michalek is a great top 6 forward, borderline 1st line winger, but once Alfie retires, we're missing 3 top 6 wingers (hard to say if and when Z, Silf, Stone will become top 6 players). We need to replace Gonchar with a similar player as well (another if/maybe with Weir/Ceci).

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02-02-2013, 11:56 PM
  #97
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Yeah, there's a ton of talent there, but guys like DaCosta, Pageau, Boro, and Claesson are loooooong shots for top-4/6 roles. I say that as probably the biggest Claesson fan on the forum.
Boro doesn't look like a long shot for a top 4 role. He's already playing in the NHL as a rookie. He definitely looks like he has shut down defender potential and could be a Volchenkov type top 4 guy. Especially if you consider Meszaros a good top 4 guy. Boro can do the little things that make Meszaros a good top 4 guy. His shot isn't as good but his skating and passing are comparable.

I wouldn't bet on it happening, but its certainly a real possibility.


Last edited by FolignoQuantumLeap: 02-03-2013 at 12:29 AM. Reason: derp
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02-03-2013, 12:26 AM
  #98
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FYI, Joe Corvo (who wasn't really that great but let's assume he was an important part of the team for argument's sake) was a headcase who demanded to be traded. He couldn't take having the scrutiny on him of playing in a Canadian market and he had his own personal issues that he wasn't dealing with very well.

He was never going to be staying here. Actually, Joe Corvo's legacy is that he was the reason Bryan Murray had Dany Heatley put his trade demand in writing because Corvo after being dealt told reporters that he never asked to be dealt which Murray was enraged by and swore that he would then have any player who did that in the future provide evidence.

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02-03-2013, 12:34 AM
  #99
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Corvo after being dealt told reporters that he never asked to be dealt which Murray was enraged by and swore that he would then have any player who did that in the future provide evidence.
Corvo might not have asked to be dealt, but he was waiting with his travel bag at the airport. NVM I see what you mean.

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02-03-2013, 12:39 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Yeah, there's a ton of talent there, but guys like DaCosta, Pageau, Boro, and Claesson are loooooong shots for top-4/6 roles. I say that as probably the biggest Claesson fan on the forum.
You need to watch DaCosta play. Even guys like Corey Pronman said he sees him as 2nd line C. Pageau is more of a project.

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