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Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-03-2013, 12:07 AM
  #76
Replacement
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...rt=points&pg=2

So you think scoring has EVERYTHING to do with what makes a 2nd liner?

Like people after top 30 scoring for C: are 2nd liners to you?

Lets see some players on that list, so I can get a handle on the kind of players you think Sam Gagner is superior to:


Derek Stepan
Adam Henrique
Jiri Hudler
Jordan Staal
Ryan Kesler
Vincent Lecavalier
Tyler Bozak
Jeff Skinner
Mike Richards
Derek Roy
Nicklas Backstrom
Mikko Koivu
Rich Peverly
Mike Cammalleri
Antoine Vermette
Sidney Crosby
David Bolland
Saku Koivu
Patrik Berglund
Jeff Carter
Tyler Ennis
Brandon Dubinsky
Martin Hanzal
Matt Duchesne
Sean Couturier




No no no no no no no and NO!

There are not 25 teams that want Sam Gagner centering their 2nd line.
Not sure what that list is supposed to be but it isn't what I would call prototypical second liners. Sidney Crosby. hmmm.


Several of those players are also veterans that are full grown and bulked out with several years of experience. Many of them in prime of career. Gagner is 23 and getting better in leaps and bounds. I would put him around 20-25 in Centers league wide. With intangibles growing.

you?

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02-03-2013, 12:49 AM
  #77
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Hall-RNH-Eberle
XXXX - Gagner - Yakupov
XXXX - XXXX - XXXX
Paajarvi - Lander - Hartikainen

Petry - Smid
J. Schultz - XXXX
Klefbom - N. Schultz
Fistric?

This is a look at what the roster is likely to look like in 2014-2015, when the Oilers are able to compete legitimately.

Still a lot of important roles to fill in. The acquisition of those players (draft, trade, UFA) will be critical.

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Old
02-03-2013, 12:53 AM
  #78
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His offense isn't an issue, however there are 3 zones in hockey, there are things called 1 on 1 battles, etc. When he can prove to be able to be solid in all 3 zones, cut down the amount of poor decisions, and stop getting bounced around like he's a toddler playing with 10 year olds a couple of times a game when he plays against "the big boys" and IMO we have ourselves a 2nd line center that we can win with. It just seems like Gagner has a hell of a hard time against big and fast players.

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02-03-2013, 12:55 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Not sure what that list is supposed to be but it isn't what I would call prototypical second liners. Sidney Crosby. hmmm.


Several of those players are also veterans that are full grown and bulked out with several years of experience. Many of them in prime of career. Gagner is 23 and getting better in leaps and bounds. I would put him around 20-25 in Centers league wide. With intangibles growing.

you?
You're saying that Gagner is the 20th-25th best center in the NHL? Am I reading this right?

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02-03-2013, 01:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
You're saying that Gagner is the 20th-25th best center in the NHL? Am I reading this right?
Oh that's just the list of Centers from 31-60 in scoring the NHL last year.

The claim that Replacement said was he was in the TOP of that 30-60 range in points.



And sorry Replacement, he's got the bet covered for scoring for 2nd line C, but as you can see, they're made up of a far more multi-dimensional players than Gags.

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02-03-2013, 01:50 AM
  #81
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I must admit that I am a bit surprised to see Gagner at only 40% on the year in draws. I went to see how RNH was doing and expected to see Gagner at say 45-48% and instead I see that RNH is 43.6% on 117 draws while Gagner is an even worse 40.0% on 105 draws. RNH is up 6.1% so far while Gagner is down 7.6%. We need both guys better in this area but I'm very surprised at Gagner's struggles in this area.

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02-03-2013, 02:04 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I must admit that I am a bit surprised to see Gagner at only 40% on the year in draws. I went to see how RNH was doing and expected to see Gagner at say 45-48% and instead I see that RNH is 43.6% on 117 draws while Gagner is an even worse 40.0% on 105 draws. RNH is up 6.1% so far while Gagner is down 7.6%. We need both guys better in this area but I'm very surprised at Gagner's struggles in this area.
A lot of great centers in the west, those numbers will improve slowly.

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02-03-2013, 04:03 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Heres a scary thought. MPS is now age 21 and invisible. This being the same age at which Gagner was expected to prop up ****ing raw unprepared, rookies on either side. Yeah, that was gonna work. To get us a first pick..

Irony 2. Many of the same people constantly shouting Gagner needs to be dealt are imminently patient with MPS. Where has this patience ever been in respect to Gagner?
Careful talking that kind of truth Replacement ... you're likely to get a snappy little gif aimed at you.

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02-03-2013, 04:12 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I must admit that I am a bit surprised to see Gagner at only 40% on the year in draws.
Yeah, that's a bit disappointing. He's lost some big draws too. He's gotta be better in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
and stop getting bounced around like he's a toddler playing with 10 year olds a couple of times a game when he plays against "the big boys"
Honestly Bryan I've watched all the games so far this year and it hasn't been happening a "couple of times a game". I've seen him get flattened maybe twice so far in eight games. No shame in getting flattened by a guy like Edler - particularly if you bounce right back up.

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02-03-2013, 07:33 AM
  #85
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Yeah, that's a bit disappointing. He's lost some big draws too. He's gotta be better in this regard.

Honestly Bryan I've watched all the games so far this year and it hasn't been happening a "couple of times a game". I've seen him get flattened maybe twice so far in eight games. No shame in getting flattened by a guy like Edler - particularly if you bounce right back up.
Gagner has been much stronger on his skates this year than in the past. I think he has a few bad games defensively but overall he is playing much better this year away from the puck and in terms of puck battles than he has in the past.

My bigger issue this year has been with Hemsky. While he has been skating better than I have seen him in a while he is mostly not getting much done.

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02-03-2013, 11:13 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
You're saying that Gagner is the 20th-25th best center in the NHL? Am I reading this right?
If one corrects for differential age and experience, yes. Which one should correct for.

Regardless of exactly where one would peg Gagner how many NHL Centers would project better and be better during the coming zenith of this club when we need them to be contenders?

How many of those Centers would be available?

The key question is how many centers will be better than Gagner in 1, 2, or 3 years from now. The NHL list slims as Gagner's game is steadily improving and many vets games will be dropping off.

Despite years played, and due to age, and physiology, Gagner is still not at prime of career although we're seeing his physical strength significantly improving and from good NHL gene stock that might foretell his tenacity and battle peak.

You'll seldom find players with a better heart and that commit more, now we're seeing Gagner with added strength to add to his willpower. Gagner is one of a shrinking breed of players that is seldom satisfied and always looking to improve. A lot of clubs would be happy to have more of that in the lineup.

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02-03-2013, 11:18 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I must admit that I am a bit surprised to see Gagner at only 40% on the year in draws. I went to see how RNH was doing and expected to see Gagner at say 45-48% and instead I see that RNH is 43.6% on 117 draws while Gagner is an even worse 40.0% on 105 draws. RNH is up 6.1% so far while Gagner is down 7.6%. We need both guys better in this area but I'm very surprised at Gagner's struggles in this area.
Again this nature of stat is largely noise until the sample of wins/losses improves. Also faceoff wins are skewed by how well your lineups recover pucks. Twice last night alone Gagner won the faceoff and his linemates didn't gain the puck. Which technically gets counted as a lost draw. I think Just having Taylor Hall on your line would increase faceoff % by a bout 5%. Eberle is also a good anticipating puck controlling magnet. Gagner has Yak who is figuring out NHL speed and timing at this level, and Hemsky who seems to have ADHD.

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02-03-2013, 11:22 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...rt=points&pg=2

So you think scoring has EVERYTHING to do with what makes a 2nd liner?

Like people after top 30 scoring for C: are 2nd liners to you?

Lets see some players on that list, so I can get a handle on the kind of players you think Sam Gagner is superior to:


Derek Stepan
Adam Henrique
Jiri Hudler
Jordan Staal
Ryan Kesler
Vincent Lecavalier
Tyler Bozak
Jeff Skinner
Mike Richards
Derek Roy
Nicklas Backstrom
Mikko Koivu
Rich Peverly
Mike Cammalleri
Antoine Vermette
Sidney Crosby
David Bolland
Saku Koivu
Patrik Berglund
Jeff Carter
Tyler Ennis
Brandon Dubinsky
Martin Hanzal
Matt Duchesne
Sean Couturier




No no no no no no no and NO!

There are not 25 teams that want Sam Gagner centering their 2nd line.
Of the guys bolded, some guys Id certainly take him over (Bozak, Stephan, Cammy, Dubinsky, Hanzal, vermette) Other guys are not 2c centers (Skinner, Cammy) and Bolland is a 3c

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02-03-2013, 11:50 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Again this nature of stat is largely noise until the sample of wins/losses improves. Also faceoff wins are skewed by how well your lineups recover pucks. Twice last night alone Gagner won the faceoff and his linemates didn't gain the puck. Which technically gets counted as a lost draw. I think Just having Taylor Hall on your line would increase faceoff % by a bout 5%. Eberle is also a good anticipating puck controlling magnet. Gagner has Yak who is figuring out NHL speed and timing at this level, and Hemsky who seems to have ADHD.
6th season in nhl for Gags! how many nhl players in the past had a break out year in their 6th nhl season? Gags is a ok player with a good offense(especially pp), but as a 2c he must make 70+ to compensate his defensive flaws fo, no pk, to slow to use as a winger (proven that last season). He is a good offensive c but struggle in other areas. Hes on a 1 year contract for a reason, very hard to see that they offer him a contract next season, and if, it would be a lowball that Gags refuse to sign.

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02-03-2013, 12:31 PM
  #90
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I've always liked him and had faith in his game. The man is young and his game always improves in some ways each season under his belt. Now, he's almost a complete player. His FO% is at 50% and his offense is tops on this team. His even strength game is improving as well. He makes 1 bad decision last game and people want to slit his throat. The same people miss all the great plays he makes in both, the offensive end and the defensive end.

Can it last.. I bet it does.

In my opinion, he's a good 2nd line center. Keep him along with the other youths. As much as I like Hemsky, he's the man out in exchange for a large body that can play with the young talant.


Last edited by Vagabond: 02-03-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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02-03-2013, 12:38 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
His offense isn't an issue, however there are 3 zones in hockey, there are things called 1 on 1 battles, etc. When he can prove to be able to be solid in all 3 zones, cut down the amount of poor decisions, and stop getting bounced around like he's a toddler playing with 10 year olds a couple of times a game when he plays against "the big boys" and IMO we have ourselves a 2nd line center that we can win with. It just seems like Gagner has a hell of a hard time against big and fast players.
His one on one battles have been pretty good this season and were decent last season. He tends to separate the puck and body well on larger players. People only see his small stature which for his frame is pretty good. Closing in on 200LBS at 5'11" is good. He plays a big mans game for a smaller player. His speed even improved. He is winning many puck battles. He is a good 2nd line center. You trade Gags, this team is a lesser team for doing so.

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02-03-2013, 12:48 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
His offense isn't an issue, however there are 3 zones in hockey, there are things called 1 on 1 battles, etc. When he can prove to be able to be solid in all 3 zones, cut down the amount of poor decisions, and stop getting bounced around like he's a toddler playing with 10 year olds a couple of times a game when he plays against "the big boys" and IMO we have ourselves a 2nd line center that we can win with. It just seems like Gagner has a hell of a hard time against big and fast players.
It's funny that this is brought up but Hemsky, at 30, is just as horrible...possibly even worse this year

I don't understand the insistence on getting a big C. Ideal? Sure. I think "size" can be offset by having a bigger winger replacing Hemsky instead.

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02-03-2013, 01:49 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
6th season in nhl for Gags! how many nhl players in the past had a break out year in their 6th nhl season? Gags is a ok player with a good offense(especially pp), but as a 2c he must make 70+ to compensate his defensive flaws fo, no pk, to slow to use as a winger (proven that last season). He is a good offensive c but struggle in other areas. Hes on a 1 year contract for a reason, very hard to see that they offer him a contract next season, and if, it would be a lowball that Gags refuse to sign.
Marc Savard didn't break out until he was around Gagners age playing 1st line minutes with Heatley and Kovalchuk
Adam Oates is another one, and I'm sure there's more

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02-03-2013, 02:07 PM
  #94
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The lines id like to see in the near future

Hall- RNH - Hemsky

Hall and Hemsky have looked very good. Hopefully the ignite RNH

Yakupov-Gagner-Eberle

Defensive liability but I think Ebs and Yakupov would do well together

MPS- Horcoff- Harti

Cycle the puck, defensively solid, bang bodies

Smyth-Belanger-Petrell

Defensively sound, very limited offense, dump and chase style

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02-03-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
6th season in nhl for Gags! how many nhl players in the past had a break out year in their 6th nhl season? Gags is a ok player with a good offense(especially pp), but as a 2c he must make 70+ to compensate his defensive flaws fo, no pk, to slow to use as a winger (proven that last season). He is a good offensive c but struggle in other areas. Hes on a 1 year contract for a reason, very hard to see that they offer him a contract next season, and if, it would be a lowball that Gags refuse to sign.
Only 8 centers put up over 70 last season and 10 the year before. I think 55-60 would be more that enough. I dont buy thats hes brutal defensively, the team he plays on is, but with improved defense core comes decreased need for our centers to be defense specialists.

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02-03-2013, 02:33 PM
  #96
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Marc Savard didn't break out until he was around Gagners age playing 1st line minutes with Heatley and Kovalchuk
Adam Oates is another one, and I'm sure there's more
You need to vacum clean very hard to find players who brake out 6th season or later. Adam oates


1985-86 Detroit Red Wings NHL 38 9 11 20 10 -24
1986-87 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 15 32 47 21 0

Playoffs 16 4 7 11 6 7 |

1987-88 Detroit Red Wings NHL 62 14 40 54 20 16
Playoffs 16 8 12 20 6 -2

1988-89 Detroit Red Wings NHL 69 16 62 78 14 -1
Playoffs 6 0 8 8 2 -1

1989-90 St. Louis Blues NHL 80 23 79 102 30 9
Playoffs 12 2 12 14 4 -10
1990-91 St. Louis Blues NHL 61 25 90 115 29 15
Playoffs 13 7 13 20 10 7

I would say that oates had his break out season in his third season 54p in 62gp and 20p in 16 play off games! Then 78p his 4th season etc.

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02-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Only 8 centers put up over 70 last season and 10 the year before. I think 55-60 would be more that enough. I dont buy thats hes brutal defensively, the team he plays on is, but with improved defense core comes decreased need for our centers to be defense specialists.
Gags is one dimensional, and rack up most of his points in pp and isnt useful in other areas of the game, not only his - stats tells that his to weak amd easy to knock off the puck.

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02-03-2013, 02:50 PM
  #98
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I must admit that I am a bit surprised to see Gagner at only 40% on the year in draws. I went to see how RNH was doing and expected to see Gagner at say 45-48% and instead I see that RNH is 43.6% on 117 draws while Gagner is an even worse 40.0% on 105 draws. RNH is up 6.1% so far while Gagner is down 7.6%. We need both guys better in this area but I'm very surprised at Gagner's struggles in this area.
Ya that'd pretty disappointing. It's a tough situation for a coach when neither of your top two centers can be counted on to win a draw late in games. RNH is in his 2nd season and improving. He is also always facing the other teams top shutdown center. Gagner is in his 6th season now. He should be feasting off of other teams weaker players. Instead he is struggling at EV and on the dot. But he has done a great job getting assists off of sweet Hemsky rushes and tapping in empty net goals.

Once again it seems to be another season where he improves in some areas and regresses in others.
Faceoffs and defensive zone coverage is worse. Effort level and PP production is better. He has had more good games than not this season, hopefully he can improve his FO% and continue to make good use of his linemates who have elite offensive skill.

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02-03-2013, 03:03 PM
  #99
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Keep Gagner, but replace Hemsky with a bigger forward (winger or centerman). Gagner can play RW or C, Yakupov can play either wing--which gives a lot more flexibility. Should make a pitch for Horton if he ever becomes an UFA.

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02-03-2013, 04:20 PM
  #100
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Gagner's good from the hash marks in. Hemsky and Yakupov typically use speed to score off the rush, whereas Gagner is better suited to a low cycle type offense. He's also relatively poor in the D zone. I feel bad for him cause he's put in a position of failure by supposely being the defensive conscious on the line which generate chances by scoring off the rush. He either needs to be placed with wingers who cycle well and are defensely responsible (ala Penner, or old Penner at least) or moved for someone who complements Yakupov and Hemsky better.

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