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Old
02-02-2013, 09:18 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Someone has to do the paperwork. Who better than a lawyer like Howson.
Why JF doesn't understand the difference between the president and the general manager? Wow.

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02-02-2013, 09:21 AM
  #352
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The first game was a full 60, but the remaining ones weren't. Our goaltending is in the bottom half of the middle third of the league, so while that is technically "Below Average" it is better than it has been in years. You can expect the defense to be better, but without an offense to cary some of the load, and have the puck for some of the time, the team will never be successful. Even a defense of 6 Nik Lidstrom clones wouldn't be able to win games on their own if they had to spend the entire game in their own zone.




We finally have a minor league team that is respectable. We've developed some later round picks. This shortened season means the fans don't have to sit through as many losses before we get to the draft, but it is long enough to figure out who should be here and who shouldn't. It'll also let us know what works, and what doesn't with Todd Richards system, once the players get a chance to actually learn it.

Maybe I had moderate expectations drilled into me from a young age as I grew up a fan of all Cleveland sports, but I was already waiting for next year before this one started. The future is bright, but it won't be here today, tomorrow, or even this week. I'm ok with that, I can still go to the arena and have a good time.
The Nashville game was 40 minutes of great hockey. I wasn't impressed with the first 20 minutes. But that was our best game - 40 minutes. Maybe you say it's 60 but I don't.
Goaltending - You say we're slightly below average because of 8 game worth of stats. I look at last season and the first 8 games this year and see two of the worst statistical goalies in the NHL.
Minor League Team - Wasn't alot of that because of the lockout? I mean most of the young guys who were developing there are now on the NHL roster where by and large they are struggling. Do you think the CBJ would have really sent them all to Springfield if there was an 82 game season for the first half. Again I look at Springfield right now and don't see much difference than last season (not many forwards developing, but still depth that is a few years away at d-men).
Again I'm not so sure if the future is any brightewr than any other year. We're always looking towards next season - a top 8 pick (who usually always makes the team because of so little talent) and hoping that the other young guys develop/progress. Granted John Moore is the best d-man prospect we've had since Klesla (and is further along at this point) but outside of him there is just a lot of POTENTIAL.

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02-02-2013, 09:39 AM
  #353
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Pfah. merriam-webster.com suggests that the uncapitalized form is perfectly acceptable.
then there's nothing to fix!

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02-02-2013, 09:39 AM
  #354
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Change just to make change? I'm indifferent on Howson, frankly I don't care if he stays or goes, but Scott has one playoff run on his resume, countless bad signings/resigns, an average trade record, and a TBD draft record.
I'm curious to see these "countless bad signings/resigns".

Trade record is above average.

Draft record is among the best in the league since 2007. Edmonton's is stronger because they've picked higher every year since 2007 (with the exception of 2008), Buffalo had a good 2008, and most of the best post-2007 players in the NHL were drafted higher than Columbus could have gotten.

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Since he's been here we've had 4 head coaches, countless assistant coaches, had to bring in a new president to try to bring credibility to the franchise. The coach that he resigned in the offseason has another coach over his shoulder as the "associate" head coach. Is there anything the Howson has really done right other than a few trades?
Inherited one, and you're including an interim coach in Claude Noel. You're skewing numbers to fit your agenda.

A GM can't control the people above him.

If his trade record is good, why did you just refer to it as "average" right above this?

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His first round track record is terrible when you consider only two guys 3 guys are left in the organization.
That's not a good measure of draft record at all. But you know this already.

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He stuck with a goalie for far to long when it was clear to the whole hockey world that our goalie position was far and away the worst in the NHL.
Since 1980, there have been five goalies with 50+ wins in their first two NHL seasons before age 25.

They are: Ron Hextall, Henrik Lundqvist, Tom Barrasso, Jim Carey, and Steve Mason.

If Howson had unloaded Steve Mason, and he'd rebounded and gone on to do what Lundqvist has done or what Hextall and Barrasso did, would you really be sitting here saying, "Good move, he had to avoid the next Jim Carey"? Come on.

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He came up with the bright idea to completely dismantle the leadership group the year after we made the playoffs. What a god awful decision that was. Hell
He made Mike Peca retire?

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If you think people wanting to get rid of Scott is just to make a change for the sake of it, your absolutely insane. Mr. Howson has accomplished nothing that should warrant him the job security he has been afforded thus far.
There are plenty who do. That's impossible to deny.

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Oh forgot to bring up the embarrassment that was the Carter trade. Yeah, trade two of our top future assets without actually doing your homework on a guy, that worked out soooooo well.
How many times do I have to go through this? Seriously.

What Jeff Carter did, by being traded and then floating his lazy ass around until he could be moved, is unprecedented in the last 30 years. It's something that simply has never happened. Scott Stevens threatened retirement and lawsuits rather than play in New Jersey, and yet he was able to swallow his pride and win three Stanley Cups while ending up in the Hall of Fame. Bernie Nicholls didn't want to move because his wife was going through a difficult pregnancy (and then the situation repeated itself later), and yet he performed at his usual pace despite not wanting to be there.

But little Jeffy had to stomp his feet and throw a tantrum and actually follow up on it, which no one had done before. How the hell are you supposed to deduce that outcome by "doing homework"? It's just as possible that Carter would have been abducted by aliens and vaporized; would you blame Howson for not being able to figure that one out beforehand?

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02-02-2013, 09:55 AM
  #355
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Mayor, you are relying on people's memories to be too poor to counter effectively. That isn't fair. I've countered every point you've made on there numerous times, I am not going to bother to continue in much detail. One of these days I will list out his complete history offline just for these occasions. One would think you are just waiting for people to forget. I would like to think that isn't true, but I have been the victim of what you are doing on numerous occasions. Police will use that tactic to try and get you to slip up.

For example, Peca wasn't the only leadership piece that left. You also had Manny, for example. Bad re-signs? You don't have to look much past our tendency to overpay too soon for our own players. Mason and Brassard come to mind. Let us not forget that Howson told us, straight faced, how good our defense was following the playoff year to later spend the better part of two or three years turning it completely over.

I can go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on about Howsons failures. I can also list his successes. In the cosmic sense of balance we would be far to the side of total and epic failure. We would be better served with him as the assistant GM or, actually, the head of scouting. He history as GM is very black and blue, he earned the position of punching bag he has become.

We can try and claim that he is "learning". Perhaps that is true. However, in the real world.... You know where I've lived for the last 20+ years as an employee? In most cases the person with his record in a position of that level would have been asked to move on a long time ago. In my current job, that would have just meant he moved on to another job at the same level somewhere else in the same company, but his lack of performance would not have been tolerated by the employing LoB.

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02-02-2013, 11:33 AM
  #356
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Howson't biggest mistakes early was he tried to copy the Cleveland Indians model of the Mid 90's and locked up all of his young players to multi year deals.
The Indians did it right and had a lot of those players far exceed their contracts (value). Unfortunately for Howson the guys he locked up really didn't.

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02-02-2013, 12:07 PM
  #357
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Let me take a guess--- because in a well run organization, the President and GM serve different functions?
In a historic moment that nobody would have ever predicted before now...

...you get a cookie.


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02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
Murray, Johansen, Jenner (2nd Rd steal), Atkinson (6rd steal) Reilly 6 late Rd steal) Our goaltending is actually improving(Dansk Forsberg Korpisalo Bobrovsky). Will it last? Time will tell. Howson brought in Bobrovsky to motivate Mason. I think that lit a fire under his ass and maybe, just maybe it's starting to show. Developing players takes time, and having the right players to surround them with is critical.

We also have a stock full of promising defensive players. They just need to get some offensive help.
Here we go counting chickens before they are hatched again to defend Howson's current abysmal track record at drafting.

Let's see MB finally prove this nonsense about Howson's great drafting record since 2007 instead of hanging his hat on it with no evidence to back it up. Who were these great picks? They don't seem to be in our lineup.

Picking Ryan Murray took slightly more brain power than remembering to breathe again. It would be like giving the Penguins credit for drafting Crosby or Malkin.

Jenner and Reilly, two players who have yet to play their first professional game are no more evidence that Howson's drafting has improved than Mayorov or Kubalik, guys that people were all excited about years ago were before they'd played significant time as pros.

It takes very little to improve the worst goaltending in the league to simply be below average.

Saying we need "some" offensive help has to go down as the understatement of this young season.

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02-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #359
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I'm curious to see these "countless bad signings/resigns".
Sure thing. Point out the bad re/signings? Well just on this teams payroll today we have Umberger, Brassard, Mason, Commodore, and Wisniewski who are all bad signings/resignings of Scott Howson.

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Trade record is above average.
Trade record above average? It may be slightly above average. Trade record is something I've always defended Howson on, but it's hard to say his trade record is well above average when you look at the teams position at the end of each year. The Williams trade was good, the Tyutin trade was good, the Nikitin trade was good, but outside of that I see a bunch of average to below average trades. His trade record is adequate though and not a reason for his firing or enough to warrant keeping him.

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Draft record is among the best in the league since 2007. Edmonton's is stronger because they've picked higher every year since 2007 (with the exception of 2008), Buffalo had a good 2008, and most of the best post-2007 players in the NHL were drafted higher than Columbus could have gotten.
2007: Adequate. Voracek should still be here and he provided some offense while he was here. Other than that his picks amounted to nothing for CBJ, maybe a future backup goalie in York, but I doubt it. This was a bad draft.

2008: Completely whiffed on his first four picks. He may have gotten us solid second and third line wingers in Atkinson and Calvert though. Overall I'd call 2008 an average draft.

2009: Too early to tell looks like he maybe have gotten a 2nd and 3rd pairing defender though.

2010: Too early to tell but looks like he may have found a solid top line center but the rest of the picks do appear to be awful picks that will not amount to any NHL players other than his top pick. Dalton Prout may be a decent bottom pairing defender.

2011: Way to early to tell.

2012: Way to early to tell.

Fact is, is that Howson has not drafted one player that has made an impact on this franchise yet. Voracek was the closest pick thus far and he traded him away. However overall, it's just to soon to tell, because some of Howson's potentially impact picks aren't playing for the club at this time.

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Inherited one, and you're including an interim coach in Claude Noel. You're skewing numbers to fit your agenda.

A GM can't control the people above him.
You may have a point here, but Howson gets a huge failure at finding a coach considering his current guy has an associate headcoach looking over him. He signed Arny and a terrible support staff, that crashed and burned.

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That's not a good measure of draft record at all. But you know this already.
He's been able to potentially pick in the top 10, five times sense he's been here. First rounder performance is a very good barometer.


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Since 1980, there have been five goalies with 50+ wins in their first two NHL seasons before age 25.

They are: Ron Hextall, Henrik Lundqvist, Tom Barrasso, Jim Carey, and Steve Mason.

If Howson had unloaded Steve Mason, and he'd rebounded and gone on to do what Lundqvist has done or what Hextall and Barrasso did, would you really be sitting here saying, "Good move, he had to avoid the next Jim Carey"? Come on.
You are joking right? Talking about skewing to fit an agenda. That stat I'm afraid is completely pointless and shows nothing. Steve Mason had an amazing two or three month stretch in his rookie season, he only ended up with a .916 save percentage at the end of his rookie season. Lundqvist a .922. Hextall played in a completely different era of hockey. Hextall's stats in today's era would get his team last place every season, same with Barrasso.

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He made Mike Peca retire?
Nope but he let the others walk or traded them away.


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There are plenty who do. That's impossible to deny.
Can't think of one person on this site who doesn't have validation for wanting Howson gone, so yeah, it's actually rather easy to deny.


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How many times do I have to go through this? Seriously.

What Jeff Carter did, by being traded and then floating his lazy ass around until he could be moved, is unprecedented in the last 30 years. It's something that simply has never happened. Scott Stevens threatened retirement and lawsuits rather than play in New Jersey, and yet he was able to swallow his pride and win three Stanley Cups while ending up in the Hall of Fame. Bernie Nicholls didn't want to move because his wife was going through a difficult pregnancy (and then the situation repeated itself later), and yet he performed at his usual pace despite not wanting to be there.

But little Jeffy had to stomp his feet and throw a tantrum and actually follow up on it, which no one had done before. How the hell are you supposed to deduce that outcome by "doing homework"? It's just as possible that Carter would have been abducted by aliens and vaporized; would you blame Howson for not being able to figure that one out beforehand?
Sorry, but if you're trading your top youngster and a top 10 draft pick you had better damn well do your homework on the player your looking to bring in, in a trade. Is it that hard to ask a player if he has any desire to play for your franchise? I'm sure Philadelphia would have been completely fine with Howson doing his due diligence. You have terrible judgement, and are a terrible homer when you completely neglect the fact that fault lies with Howson. Is it all his fault? No some does go to Carter, but last I checked Howson was the guy that pulled the trigger on the trade without gauging the players interest first. It's not like the player didn't just sign a career contract with his team previously.

Overall I give the crap you said 3/10.

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Old
02-02-2013, 12:56 PM
  #360
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how is howson supposed to "do his homework" on Carter...he knew we needed scoring and made a deal to bring a 25+ goal scorer here...its tampering if he talks to the player before acquiring him, so what homework could he have done? that day the trades came down fast and took ppl by surprise, not like there was time for him to talk to Carts that day...

some good revisionist work after the fact there...

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02-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Here we go counting chickens before they are hatched again to defend Howson's current abysmal track record at drafting.

Let's see MB finally prove this nonsense about Howson's great drafting record since 2007 instead of hanging his hat on it with no evidence to back it up. Who were these great picks? They don't seem to be in our lineup.

Picking Ryan Murray took slightly more brain power than remembering to breathe again. It would be like giving the Penguins credit for drafting Crosby or Malkin.
It doesn't matter, because the fact of the matter is, Murray joined the team under his tenure

Jenner and Reilly, two players who have yet to play their first professional game are no more evidence that Howson's drafting has improved than Mayorov or Kubalik, guys that people were all excited about years ago were before they'd played significant time as pros.

Difference this time is that these players are recognized internationally. While Reilly may not have directly led his team to the Gold in the WJC, his play caught a lot of people's eyes and Jenner even more so.

It takes very little to improve the worst goaltending in the league to simply be below average.

I play goalie, goalie stats don't tell the whole story, without a capable offense, the goalie is under more pressure, a lot more pressure. Even before the game even starts knowing you're going to have to make 35-45 saves to win a game is a very very difficult thing to accomplish day in and day out.

Saying we need "some" offensive help has to go down as the understatement of this young season.
I'll agree with that, we need a lot of help, but we also need time. We had no training camp to speak of, no preseason games. We are just now getting to the point where our players should be by game 1.


Like I said before I think we have a lot of talent in the system, and they all have their different styles. I think Moore is going to end up being a steal at 19, he has the potential to develop into a top 4 dman if he isn't already. The hardest part is going to be surrounding these young kids with hard working/skilled players. (Johansen, Atkinson, Moore, Murray, Calvert **** even Brassard.) If they see the others working their ***** off and on the ice, it will translate, it just takes time. You don't just revamp your organization overnight after trading your star player for depth. I think everyone knew this was going to be a rough season. And yet everyone is calling for Howson's head. IT TAKES TIME. It's going to be at least a year before things get back on track depending on next year's draft, getting Murray back, and what happens with Mason this season.

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02-02-2013, 01:58 PM
  #362
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how is howson supposed to "do his homework" on Carter...he knew we needed scoring and made a deal to bring a 25+ goal scorer here...its tampering if he talks to the player before acquiring him, so what homework could he have done? that day the trades came down fast and took ppl by surprise, not like there was time for him to talk to Carts that day...

some good revisionist work after the fact there...
Yeah, that trade came sooooo fast, I mean nobody here was talking about it months before it happened, right? When making a big trade that is sending away two huge assets you should probably do your due diligence. It wasn't exactly an unknown thing that Carter had some character and compete issues.

Revisionist work after the fact? I hope you realize how stupid you sound when you say that. How the hell else do you evaluate anybodies performance job performance, at literally any job conceivable? Oh that's right, you do it by looking back over there body of work.

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02-02-2013, 04:12 PM
  #363
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Passing on Alex Galchenyuk when one has an offensively challenged team for a non superstar defenseman is shaping up to be another major blunder for GMSH.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8476851

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02-02-2013, 04:24 PM
  #364
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Passing on Alex Galchenyuk when one has an offensively challenged team for a non superstar defenseman is shaping up to be another major blunder for GMSH.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8476851
A little early to be saying things one way or the other about either player right now, isn't it?

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02-02-2013, 04:28 PM
  #365
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Passing on Alex Galchenyuk when one has an offensively challenged team for a non superstar defenseman is shaping up to be another major blunder for GMSH.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8476851
Ryan Murray has yet to even put a jackets jersey on except for when he was drafted. Would Alex have been a nice addition to our team? Of course. I was actually upset we drafted Murray. But the more I looked at it the happier I became. While we had pretty good depth at D before the draft Murray should really solidify our top 4 pairing. Johnson Murray
Wiz-Moore
Nikitin-Tyutin

Also us not drafting Alex gives Brassard and Johansen to really get the amount of ice time they need for management to really decide if Brassard is capable of the responsibility they want him to have and it gives Johansen the ice time he needs to take his game to next level. This could be a big year for him.

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02-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Passing on Alex Galchenyuk when one has an offensively challenged team for a non superstar defenseman is shaping up to be another major blunder for GMSH.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8476851
Would still pick Murray over him.

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02-02-2013, 05:02 PM
  #367
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A little early to be saying things one way or the other about either player right now, isn't it?
Nope. Fire Howson!

BTW this is a GDT from two days ago, how did it become this crap?

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02-02-2013, 05:06 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
Nope. Fire Howson!

BTW this is a GDT from two days ago, how did it become this crap?
Come on Howie. You've been around since 2007 and you don't know the answer to that?

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02-02-2013, 05:41 PM
  #369
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BTW this is a GDT from two days ago, how did it become this crap?
Crap writing for a crap game. Very appropriate. Seriously though if we are going to destroy a thread, it might as well be this one.

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02-02-2013, 06:55 PM
  #370
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Come on Howie. You've been around since 2007 and you don't know the answer to that?
I have repressed the past 6 years.

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02-03-2013, 01:07 PM
  #371
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Almost forgot this was a GDT...I'll end up starting a new one at some point simply to go back through all this. Except this part.

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Yeah, that trade came sooooo fast, I mean nobody here was talking about it months before it happened, right? When making a big trade that is sending away two huge assets you should probably do your due diligence. It wasn't exactly an unknown thing that Carter had some character and compete issues.

Revisionist work after the fact? I hope you realize how stupid you sound when you say that. How the hell else do you evaluate anybodies performance job performance, at literally any job conceivable? Oh that's right, you do it by looking back over there body of work.
Your idea of "due diligence" is called tampering. The NHL has traditionally wielded a very heavy hammer on anything that could be remotely construed as tampering. Consider:

- The NHL fined Toronto a couple years ago for Ron Wilson talking about two pending UFAs (Daniel and Henrik Sedin) on a radio show.
- Bettman pre-emptively suggested massive penalties toward both Toronto and Anaheim over Brian Burke in 2008 if anything resembling tampering took place
- One of the heaviest penalties in league history involved tampering. In the Scott Stevens case, St. Louis had to forfeit a first-rounder outright to New Jersey, and New Jersey also gained the option to flip first-rounders once. There was also the transfer of $1.4 million to New Jersey. Lou Lamoriello blasted the penalty for being too light. New Jersey exercised the seizure in 2001, and the flip in 2003. The flip in 2003 sent the Blues to #30 and the Devils to #22, which they traded for #17...and Zach Parise.

How does the NHL define tampering?

http://www.bizofhockey.com/docs/NHLBy-Laws.pdf

Right there in Section 15. It's pages 46-48 of the bylaws, pages 52-54 of the PDF.

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02-03-2013, 01:10 PM
  #372
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thanks for that...

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02-03-2013, 01:16 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Yeah, that trade came sooooo fast, I mean nobody here was talking about it months before it happened, right? When making a big trade that is sending away two huge assets you should probably do your due diligence. It wasn't exactly an unknown thing that Carter had some character and compete issues.

Revisionist work after the fact? I hope you realize how stupid you sound when you say that. How the hell else do you evaluate anybodies performance job performance, at literally any job conceivable? Oh that's right, you do it by looking back over there body of work.
Doug, I every with every part of your dissection of Mayor's apologist efforts to defend GMSH - except one. Mayor's right that what you describe as "due diligence" in the Jeff Carter deal would indeed be considered off limits.

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02-03-2013, 01:35 PM
  #374
Crede777
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The only way Howson could talk to Carter or Carter's agent would be with consent from Holmgren.

Holmgren would not have and should not have given consent. Howson could have talked to Carter and found out Carter had less than no interest in coming to Columbus. He would have called off the trade and Holmgren would have been left with a disgruntled player.

As for Murray over Galchenyuk, Murray is the most hyped Canadian defenseman since 2008. His injury is unfortunate in its timing but you forget how much of a questionmark both Yakupov and Galchenyuk are/were.

Take a moment to ponder how different the Jackets will look after this half season is over. We may well have Jenner, Murray, and 3 1st's from this draft in camp.


Last edited by Crede777: 02-03-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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02-03-2013, 01:47 PM
  #375
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I'm not going to pick sides but regsarding the Carter trade it was foolish to jump into.

Carter had issues in Philly - like a lot of young guys he liked the night (just like Zherdev did here), he just signed a huge contract to stay in Philly that had a NTC but that had a window to trade him, he didn't show up a lot of time and according to a lot of Philly fans he scored a lot of meaningless goals.

You put it all together and you have a kid who likes the night life of Philly, justed signed huge contract to stay in Philly, and he didn't always play hard.

Now if you were the GM of a team that likes to have "Good guys" (the entire PR thing), with a team with a lot of leadership issues, with a lot of guys who didn't bring it every night, in a city that a lot of families love, but let's be honest lots of single guys may not love so much (unless chasing college age women is their thing) wouldn't acquiring Carter have thrown up some flags?

Carter liked Phillys night life (let's be honest Columbus is fun, but it's not a big town), and he signed a long term deal to stay there. If you were going to acquire a guy with a questionable reputation you better have strong leadership in that room to keep him in line.

Again we needed goals and I can understand the trade if you were the GM of a fantasy hockey team, but real players have real issues and Carter's were very apparent. Howson chose to ignore them.

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