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The real reasons no UFA wants to come to Montreal???

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Old
07-03-2006, 08:20 AM
  #1
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The real reasons no UFA wants to come to Montreal???

1.) Taxes are higher in Montreal than anywhere else, as a result we need to overpay to bring guys in. They can take home more of their money somewhere else.

Edit: as McPhee stated 2 and 3 are perceptions and stereotypes of Montreal that some players have and they may not be entirely true in reality. However many hockey players believe them to be the case, and when going after UFAs perception = reality.

2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league. Do you think other players don't notice when things like the Koivu situation take place (ie the question about speaking french in the media conference dealing with his eye injury, the leaked photos from his bedside etc...)

3.) The language issue for families. Face it some guys do not want to send their kids to a french school, and some players wives have problems making friends in a city with that language barrier included.

4.) Cold Climate - Think its not a factor? Think again.


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07-03-2006, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
1.) Taxes are higher in Montreal than anywhere else, as a result we need to overpay to bring guys in. They can take home more of their money somewhere else.

2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league. Do you think other players don't notice when things like the Koivu situation take place (ie the question about speaking french in the media conference dealing with his eye injury, the leaked photos from his bedside etc...)

3.) The language issue for families. Face it some guys do not want to send their kids to a french school, and some players wives have problems making friends in a city with that language barrier included.

4.) Cold Climate - Think its not a factor? Think again.
I don't agree with number 2. I don't think that what matters the most to the players are the journalists, but the fans. And no matther what 110% says about Koivu, he is still loved by the majority of the fans. Same thing for Kovalev. Even if 110% was always cheering for Dagenais, we don't see many fans wearing a Dagenais habs shirt. We see the Koivus, Kovalevs and Markov. The better ones. Not only the frenchies. That's what matthers to the players, I'm sure. They care about the fans, not about the journalists.

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07-03-2006, 08:30 AM
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May as well just quit right now, I guess. Unless we try and build a team, but that never works. We're doomed. All the other places with no taxes, no French media, no French at all, and warmer weather will get all the good players. Shoot.

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07-03-2006, 08:34 AM
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May as well just quit right now, I guess. Unless we try and build a team, but that never works. We're doomed. All the other places with no taxes, no French media, no French at all, and warmer weather will get all the good players. Shoot.
Isn't Texas looking to buy another team?

The Austin Canadiens





I'm so joking...

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07-03-2006, 08:39 AM
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What players did you expect gainey to sign? Arnott and elias? How about the overpaying defense class? Well i think it was obvious that elias would resign in nj. Arnott signed else where with a better team and well to tell you the truth he is not the center i would want on this team. He is an upgrade over reiberio but the man is too inconsistent and shows up when he wants to. We have enough of those players that take shifts off. Montreal already have all theyre defense and we wont resign another dman unless one of our D are being traded. I think the only way Gainey can improve this team in a logical way is to make trades. Shanahan is one of the only few players left rumored to come here and it is doubtful we will land him. We habs fans will have to wait until gainey makes trades imo.

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07-03-2006, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gros Bill View Post
May as well just quit right now, I guess. Unless we try and build a team, but that never works. We're doomed. All the other places with no taxes, no French media, no French at all, and warmer weather will get all the good players. Shoot.
Or it means draft better and make better trades.... True that if you're a hockey player in search of a nice living and don't care that much to win but want a lot of cash, though we don't want those kinds of player here, you'll go elsewhere since we prefer overpaying the players that are already in the org., since we really know what they can give us and not the others.....

All the other players that want a winning environnement, a great team, great spirit, with a chance of winning the cup, well we're not there yet,so, as of now, they're not interested. I don't think players are really into battling for the 8th spot. They want to hear that their future team will be battling to become a contender. Didn't you realise that this is the new message of our org.? Going for the Cup instead of looking to barely made it even though they know that we don't have everything it takes to make it that far. Not far behind but not there yet. It takes a greater effort now for our org. to convince the UFA that with them coming, we will then go from a good team to a much better one and then become cup contenders.......

I don't think there's a majority of players who really cares about playing in the greatest tradition in sports or like the fact that Montreal looks like an European city with North American facilities.

As far as pressure goes though I don't agree, players sign in NY and in Toronto, and there's as much pressure. And I think it's much better for non-francophone out here than it is in those cities. For a franco, well, that's another story......

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07-03-2006, 08:42 AM
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I prefer living in Mtl with a sucky team than living in Edmonton or Carolina for sure...

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07-03-2006, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
1.) Taxes are higher in Montreal than anywhere else, as a result we need to overpay to bring guys in. They can take home more of their money somewhere else.

2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league. Do you think other players don't notice when things like the Koivu situation take place (ie the question about speaking french in the media conference dealing with his eye injury, the leaked photos from his bedside etc...)

3.) The language issue for families. Face it some guys do not want to send their kids to a french school, and some players wives have problems making friends in a city with that language barrier included.

4.) Cold Climate - Think its not a factor? Think again.
I think you're wrong on 3 of the 4 !

Medias in Montreal are no better or worse than the ones in NY, Toronto or L.A. If you would be honest, you would notice that the "French" media never complained about any other players not speaking French. They are just pointing out that the CAPTAIN of Le Canadiens de Montréal, should be able to speak fes words in the ticket payers language ! They never demand that Kovalev, Souray, Rivet (who is in Montreal since 10 years now) or any other speak or understand French. JUST the CAPTAIN ! Koivu is probably masochistic. He loves being trashed by "French" media, I guess. He just signed a multi-year, multi million contract with "Les Canadiens"

3- Any players coming to Montreal can send their kids to an English school (Private ... but they have tons of money to do so) If they are Americans or Europeans they can send them to any school... But have you ever notices that ythese guy are young and have VERY young kids who are not yet going to school. They don't stay in Montreal long enough to have kids going in the school system anyway ! As for their spouses, are you kidding me. Montreal is a bilingual city. On top of that, the wives stick together most of the times. I think it is more of a problem learning Russian or Swedish...

4- Climate ? Are you kidding ? It is no better or worse than in Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Minnesota, Boston, Chicago, Detroit. The players are spending about 3-4 months in Montreal per year (the rest, they are travelling or going home for summer). In Montreal, you have snow in December, January and February. That's it !


So, find elsewhere why players don't want to come to Montreal.

Maybe it is because people like you who have negative feelings & prejudices about the city, the province, and are carrying that garbage across America and the world via Internet.

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07-03-2006, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
1.) Taxes are higher in Montreal than anywhere else, as a result we need to overpay to bring guys in. They can take home more of their money somewhere else.

2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league. Do you think other players don't notice when things like the Koivu situation take place (ie the question about speaking french in the media conference dealing with his eye injury, the leaked photos from his bedside etc...)

3.) The language issue for families. Face it some guys do not want to send their kids to a french school, and some players wives have problems making friends in a city with that language barrier included.

4.) Cold Climate - Think its not a factor? Think again.
#1 is very true.Not as true as it once was, but who wants fact to sway a

Beaker, you're smart enough to know about the concept of perception. It isn't reality but it results in reality. [Dylan like doncha think ?] The entire French media thing can get offensive if you don't have a broad view of it. There are political issues in the media in Mtl., though sadly they don't usually come from anyone in the sports media. I think a more accurate portrayal is the hyper focus of the media surrounding the team. The relationship of the team's history to it's public is probably the subject of a lot of books, it's good and bad, and it's hard to explain to someone who's lived outside of it.

#3, also sadly is the perception. Players like Gilmour find out that the opposite is true and can't say enough positive things about the city, but stereotypes are hard to fight.

#4 is true in that the Anaheim's of the league become desired destinations. A solid franchise in a nice climate where you aren't recognized in a store ? Can't beat it.



I think the hyper focus around the team is a big factor. That's more than th emedia though, it's the fans, the whole 9 yards. If we didn't crave this stuff, they wouldn't feed it to us. I think the org. has a long way to go to sell the CH as a destination. I thought they were farther along than they are. Maybe they are, I don't know how agressively some of these guys were pursued. We have such a sense of entitlement, that when we don't get the player we want, it has to be because our GM just isn't trying.

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07-03-2006, 08:56 AM
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#1 is very true.Not as true as it once was, but who wants fact to sway a

Beaker, you're smart enough to know about the concept of perception. It isn't reality but it results in reality. [Dylan like doncha think ?] The entire French media thing can get offensive if you don't have a broad view of it. There are political issues in the media in Mtl., though sadly they don't usually come from anyone in the sports media. I think a more accurate portrayal is the hyper focus of the media surrounding the team. The relationship of the team's history to it's public is probably the subject of a lot of books, it's good and bad, and it's hard to explain to someone who's lived outside of it.

#3, also sadly is the perception. Players like Gilmour find out that the opposite is true and can't say enough positive things about the city, but stereotypes are hard to fight.

#4 is true in that the Anaheim's of the league become desired destinations. A solid franchise in a nice climate where you aren't recognized in a store ? Can't beat it.



I think the hyper focus around the team is a big factor. That's more than th emedia though, it's the fans, the whole 9 yards. If we didn't crave this stuff, they wouldn't feed it to us. I think the org. has a long way to go to sell the CH as a destination. I thought they were farther along than they are. Maybe they are, I don't know how agressively some of these guys were pursued. We have such a sense of entitlement, that when we don't get the player we want, it has to be because our GM just isn't trying.
But I think we may have overrated the Gainey and Carbo factor, the fact that we have real leaders now, do not seem to have any effect whatsoever. But again, it's a board so it's mostly speculation 'cause Arnott didn't come here but maybe because Gainey never made an offer????

Would be nice to know, if Gainey open his game, to see which guys were offered something, and if Gainey would go as far as saying that we did offer around the same kind of money they accepted elsewhere, then we'll know....

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Old
07-03-2006, 09:00 AM
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If Montreal didn't have a nearly 100 year history of winning and being a contender and all those things, I think you'd be right.

But the history matters.

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07-03-2006, 09:05 AM
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#1 is very true.Not as true as it once was, but who wants fact to sway a

Beaker, you're smart enough to know about the concept of perception. It isn't reality but it results in reality. [Dylan like doncha think ?] The entire French media thing can get offensive if you don't have a broad view of it. There are political issues in the media in Mtl., though sadly they don't usually come from anyone in the sports media. I think a more accurate portrayal is the hyper focus of the media surrounding the team. The relationship of the team's history to it's public is probably the subject of a lot of books, it's good and bad, and it's hard to explain to someone who's lived outside of it.

#3, also sadly is the perception. Players like Gilmour find out that the opposite is true and can't say enough positive things about the city, but stereotypes are hard to fight.

#4 is true in that the Anaheim's of the league become desired destinations. A solid franchise in a nice climate where you aren't recognized in a store ? Can't beat it.



I think the hyper focus around the team is a big factor. That's more than th emedia though, it's the fans, the whole 9 yards. If we didn't crave this stuff, they wouldn't feed it to us. I think the org. has a long way to go to sell the CH as a destination. I thought they were farther along than they are. Maybe they are, I don't know how agressively some of these guys were pursued. We have such a sense of entitlement, that when we don't get the player we want, it has to be because our GM just isn't trying.
I agree mcphee. Perception is far more persuasive than facts in affecting the decisions people make, whether they be hockey players, lawyers, doctors or ditch diggers. Whether fact based or not that "tax and language thing" really are perceived quite negatively. I mean, why did Carbonneau leave Montreal for the US? He wanted his children to be educated in English, as I recall. You're right. The Habs have a long way to go in selling CH as a destination for a lot of FAs. Winning is probably the ultimate selling card IMO. Cheers.

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07-03-2006, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by whitesnake View Post
But I think we may have overrated the Gainey and Carbo factor, the fact that we have real leaders now, do not seem to have any effect whatsoever. But again, it's a board so it's mostly speculation 'cause Arnott didn't come here but maybe because Gainey never made an offer????

Would be nice to know, if Gainey open his game, to see which guys were offered something, and if Gainey would go as far as saying that we did offer around the same kind of money they accepted elsewhere, then we'll know....

It's hard for us to say, and I also would like to understand the process a bit more.I believe the CH had become a laughingstock during Corey's last years and re-building the team as a franchise that matters may be a longer process than we thought. I think that building a team from the inside is long and painful. The timing of when to add to a young base is critical, esp. in a cap system.

So,like you, I wonder if BG just hasn't been able to execute plans A,B or C, or if he thinks the market doesn't offer a return on investment. To add salary, you have to send out salary, so maybe the trade market is the way to go.

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07-03-2006, 09:16 AM
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I agree mcphee. Perception is far more persuasive than facts in affecting the decisions people make, whether they be hockey players, lawyers, doctors or ditch diggers. Whether fact based or not that "tax and language thing" really are perceived quite negatively. I mean, why did Carbonneau leave Montreal for the US? He wanted his children to be educated in English, as I recall. You're right. The Habs have a long way to go in selling CH as a destination for a lot of FAs. Winning is probably the ultimate selling card IMO. Cheers.
There are posters on the board who love to take an extreme view on language issues in the province, from different perspectives. I find a lot of them offensive and for the most part, I want to stay away from that crap. I just wanted to make the point that, imo, that the perception becomes the reality.

Beaker isn't one of those guys, and I wanted to make sure that point was made before things get, and they usually do, stupid.

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07-03-2006, 09:28 AM
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Thanks McPhee, I didn't want to sound anti-french if thats how my post came off, I'm sorry.

But you hit it on the head, there are stereotypes and perceptions of the Province of Quebec that are not always true. Notice how guys we have gotten through drafting and trades over the years have absolutely fallen in love with the city, the Mullers, Rivet, Kovalev, Koivu, etc... Once they realize the reality of the situation they are more willing to resign and come back. Problem is right now the stereotypes and perceptions are taking over the reality and our management needs to do a better job of fighting them. Sure guys come to Montreal between 1-4 times a year depending on what team they are on, but a one day trip where you have to practice in the morning, sleep in the afternoon, play a game at night, is not long enough to learn the city and open the eyes of how it is a great town, how you don't need to learn french to live here, how wild the nightlife is, how beautiful the city is, etc...

What can management do to woo guys to Montreal. I really think we should fly the free agents and there families in, and take them around town for 2 or 3 days, let them see the whole Montreal experience for what it is, and try to dispell some of the perceptions of the city that are hurting it.

As far as the media goes, i still say they are a factor, sure Toronto and NY are able to sign guys, but some players will shy away from those cities to. It all depends on the athlete and his personal make-up. I prefer players who like the pressure as i think those guys are better equipped to deal with it as the games get bigger, but some don't like pressure and to them its an issue. However some of the guys who go to T.O. and NY shy away from Montreal for other reasons (ie taxes).

The climate thing is again a factor for some people. Just ask Pronger and his wife if you don't believe me. Sure its not everyone, but sometimes i think guys playing in Anaheim, Tampa, LA, etc have it great. They can go to the beach on days off, they don't get recognized when they go grab a cup of coffee, again it is a factor with some players.

Of course the biggest factor is still the tax issue, which is why when we see guys sign (ie Koivu) many of us complain that they are overpaid. You have to remember that for a player 4.5million in Montreal = 3.75-4 million in a place with lower income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc... It is a big deal and I'm sure these guys have been well advised by agents and financial planners prior to negotiating.

Of course not every issue is one that affects every guy, but the issues exist and it only takes one to sour a guy on a city. That is why it is imperative that BG make the right draft picks and trades in this town, as the people who are "forced" to come to Montreal often never want to leave, and get good value if he does get a FA so we hae the cap space to make future moves.


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07-03-2006, 09:38 AM
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You could see it the other way.

1) Montreal is an hockey town, you will be reconized/stardom, some likes that.
2) Best place on planet earth to WIN at the sport of hockey.(Bad place to loose)
3) Media keeps you in check, some players prefer pressure full hockey cities because they feel appreciated.(Kovalev, Koivu)
4) Full, loud stadium.

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07-03-2006, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post

But you hit it on the head, there are stereotypes and perceptions of the Province of Quebec that are not always true. Notice how guys we have gotten through drafting and trades over the years have absolutely fallen in love with the city, the Mullers, Rivet, Kovalev, Koivu, etc... Once they
What can management do to woo guys to Montreal. I really think we should fly the free agents and there families in, and take them around town for 2 or 3 days, let them see the whole Montreal experience for what it is, and not dispell some of the perceptions of the city that are hurting it.
I've been wondering the same thing. Is the team hands on enough ? Is there time to accomplish this ? Players are signing fast. That tells me 2 things, players are worried that the offer next week may not equal the offer this week. Agents are talking to teams before July 1. They can't cart families to a cty and maybe they don't have the opportunity to do so.

Are guys like Koivu,Kovalev, being used as resources when talking to other players or is the contact simply GM to agent ? I have heard comments that agents aren't big fans of sending players here, in that taxes affect their bottom line.

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07-03-2006, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
1.) Taxes are higher in Montreal than anywhere else, as a result we need to overpay to bring guys in. They can take home more of their money somewhere else.

2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league. Do you think other players don't notice when things like the Koivu situation take place (ie the question about speaking french in the media conference dealing with his eye injury, the leaked photos from his bedside etc...)

3.) The language issue for families. Face it some guys do not want to send their kids to a french school, and some players wives have problems making friends in a city with that language barrier included.

4.) Cold Climate - Think its not a factor? Think again.
Your right, these are some of our negatives, but Montreal also offers alot of positives. Ultimately, that's not what sways the decision. I am convinced that the reason Arnott chose Nashville had more to do with the duration of the agreement than the factors you mention.

The UFA market has become a bonanza for players and not necessary for the annual salary but more on the duration of the deal. Giving 5 year deals to some of these guys is suicidal in the new age of the CBA.

Gainey is taking alot of heat from the media but I think he is doing the right thing. You cannot add 4-5 million dollar guys for 5 years and not take away from your roster. And for what, a 76 points guy.

We have a roster of young promising players, with 2-3 pushing. We need to find room for these guys. That's why the impact players we are looking for will come via trade. This is the only viable option.

It would be easy to open up the vault and sign Arnott and Kubina for example, collectively for 9 million for 5 years. What happens if these players do not work out and the caps stays the same or like some are predicting goes down? Gainey will then take the heat and deservably so. Doing what the Leafs and the Bruins have done does not take alot of skill. Building a team with young players, adding pieces as you go along, while being cap concious does. I think we have the latter with Gainey.

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07-03-2006, 09:43 AM
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You could see it the other way.

1) Montreal is an hockey town.
2) Best place on planet earth to WIN at the sport of hockey.(Bad place to loose)
3) Media keeps you in check, some players prefer pressure full hockey cities because they feel appreciated.(Kovalev, Koivu)
4) Full, loud stadium.
Of course what you say is true,but it only matters if players see it that way.

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07-03-2006, 09:44 AM
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2.) The idiots in the french media like the guys at 110%, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS etc have given montreal a bad reputation around the league.

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07-03-2006, 09:46 AM
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Of course what you say is true,but it only matters if players see it that way.
I prefer the players seeing it that way, true winners or true hockey fans?

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07-03-2006, 09:49 AM
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Using language and ethnicity as arguments for or against something should not happen.

The main poster using the French language as a basis for his argument offends me as a French speaking person.

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07-03-2006, 09:51 AM
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Using language and ethnicity as arguments for or against something should not happen.

The main poster using the French language as a basis for his argument offends me as a French speaking person.
Agreed

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07-03-2006, 09:52 AM
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Using language and ethnicity as arguments for or against something should not happen.

The main poster using the French language as a basis for his argument offends me as a French speaking person.
True or not, we should really stop talking about any languages 'cause after that the debate goes in a totally wrong direction and we lose the real essence of the subject.

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07-03-2006, 09:53 AM
  #25
BORAT
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Kazakhstan
Country: Kazakhstan
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Once again ... the only way we'Re getting top talent is by drafting it :

The last great talent that signed with us was Alex Kovalev, and I think that after the disgusting press he had after the end of the playoffs ... I donT' think he'll be here for long.

Unfortunately we're still under the illusion here, that people think this is a great place to play hockey for a pro ...

yeah maybe in the Expansion era ...

Right now for most players :

it's a mix of high taxes, angry media, obsessive booing fans and of course ... the inevitable, 100 coaching changes

so why are they coming here ? the history ? don'T they want to avoid that ??? ask Lecavalier, the lastthing he needs is Red Fisher saying that he is nothing compared to this and that ...

so whats left

the Bagels ...

Kovalev must be wondering ....

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