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Some positive signs: DRW statistics

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Old
02-03-2013, 06:59 PM
  #26
Winger98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Well, he hasn't been showing us anything this year so far. I just don't think he's capable anymore, for health reasons or whatever. But I think it's pretty clear that he's a hard worker. He just can't play anymore.
I'm not sure he's capable of it, either, though I think it'd help if Babcock would cut his role back a bit. He'd be overpaid for a smaller role, but I think he'd be more effective. Or at least we wouldn't have as many reasons to complain about him.

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02-03-2013, 07:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I'm not sure he's capable of it, either, though I think it'd help if Babcock would cut his role back a bit. He'd be overpaid for a smaller role, but I think he'd be more effective. Or at least we wouldn't have as many reasons to complain about him.
I think a part of that is Sammy being out, both Bert and Sammy should slide up the lineup ahead of him, but both have missed chunks of time and we get to see Cleary attempt to be that guy. Has not been impressive when asked to do it.

I also honestly would like to see them try Abdelkader as the second PP net front guy. I think he would be better at it than Cleary is now. Sheahan would also be an interesting option should he ever make an appearance.

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Old
02-03-2013, 08:10 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
So let me get this straight the two guys you defend on this team are Quincey and Cleary...
Not too early to ramp up the "Q for Norris" campaign, right??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Well, it's also a contract year. Big playoff run = big money? Maybe.Just hopefully not with us.
You bet. Cleary will become hockey's Robert Horry, doing nothing during the regular season and then making clutch plays in the postseason. Hell, he's halfway there already- he's got the "doing nothing during the regular season" down pat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
I remember last year the general poster on here wanted to trade Zetterberg because he started slow.. so therefore he was DONE, OLD, and WASHED UP! Didn't look DONE, OLD, and WASHED UP against the Blues the other night.

The typical "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Cleary is heart and sould... so I'm confident he will get it together. I was right about Zetterberg last year, I was right about the team "needing to gel", and if I'm right about this then BONUS for the team.

I'm 2 for 2 so far. So we'll see!
Not sure you can take credit for saying a team needs to gel- every team every year needs to gel.

And it's more like "what have you done recently, and is it realistic to expect meaningful contributions in the future?"

And in Cleary's case, those answers are "Not much" and "Highly unlikely."

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02-03-2013, 08:26 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I'm not sure he's capable of it, either, though I think it'd help if Babcock would cut his role back a bit. He'd be overpaid for a smaller role, but I think he'd be more effective. Or at least we wouldn't have as many reasons to complain about him.
Instead he can be one of the team leaders for IT. Yay..... PP time whooo.... PK time, yaaaay...

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Old
02-03-2013, 09:51 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
You bet. Cleary will become hockey's Robert Horry, doing nothing during the regular season and then making clutch plays in the postseason. Hell, he's halfway there already- he's got the "doing nothing during the regular season" down pat.
If Cleary can find a three point arc out there on the ice and consistently bury shots from behind it, I'll support any contract they give him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I think a part of that is Sammy being out, both Bert and Sammy should slide up the lineup ahead of him, but both have missed chunks of time and we get to see Cleary attempt to be that guy. Has not been impressive when asked to do it.

I also honestly would like to see them try Abdelkader as the second PP net front guy. I think he would be better at it than Cleary is now. Sheahan would also be an interesting option should he ever make an appearance.
The injuries have definitely forced Cleary into a larger role, though we came into this season with him solidly in that middle6. Pointless to complain about the makeup of the team now, but I hope a healthy Sammy and Bert keeps all of their IT lower.

With the PP, I'd be willing to see anything tried on that second unit. With Cleary out there, I think he's just going to get beat on some more and made less effective in other areas - like the PK. I'd even stick E down there and see how he'd do. At least he's used to standing near the net while people fire pucks at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Instead he can be one of the team leaders for IT. Yay..... PP time whooo.... PK time, yaaaay...
Can't add much. I'm okay with him getting PK time, but I think it has to be balanced with less PP time. I don't see him as a 16-17 minute a night guy right now.

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02-04-2013, 12:24 AM
  #31
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Huskins was an excellent pickup. Big, durable, blocks shots, isn't prone to the brain cramps that the majority of our defenseman seem to be. He's been a good fit.

Really, I'm just so glad Holland decided not to cave for once and just take the easy way out with Lilja part two. Because he could've. You KNOW he could've.

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02-04-2013, 08:11 AM
  #32
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HTT3

I like your enthusiasm. Cleary has been a great player for us in the past
I hope you are right, and he improves. But I think he has about 10-14 more games playing like he is before he gets replaced on this team, or not resigned. (remember KH will give him his chance but by season's end, he will know what fans measure on a game to game basis)

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:16 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
3. Brian Lashoff: I was very interested in seeing how Lashoff would do in Detroit. He's done so well Mike Babcock sat him so we could get more data to show Jakub Kindl is nothing more than a 7th d-man. Lashoff, like Huskins, has been solid on the PK getting close to 3 mins per 60 mins of hockey. He's not as good as Huskins at keeping the puck out of the net but he's an undrafted free agent getting his first extended time playing in the NHL during what could end up being his rookie season. We know who Jakub Kindl is, I'd really like to get to know what Brian Lashoff is all about.
I find this interesting. I like Lashoff. But I think you have a completely misguided view of Kindl.

And the fact that you are using CORSI stats in your post amuses me more. Because if you were consistent and used them for Kindl and Lashoff, you'd notice this ranking among the nine Wings defensemen in even-strength Corsi stats:

CORSI On
1. Kindl 24.40
2. Colaiacovo 13.81
8. Quincey 1.03
9. Lashoff -1.14

Relative CORSI
1. Colaiacovo 31.8
2. Kindl 22.8
3. White 6.0
8. Quincey -8.0
9. Lashoff -21.5

GA/60
1. White 0.00
1. Colaiacovo 0.00
3. Kindl 1.16
4. Ericsson 1.44
8. Quincey 2.57
9. Lashoff 3.41

GF/60
1. Quincey 3.60 (surprised?)
2. Kindl 3.49
5. Kronwall 1.46
6. Lashoff 1.14
7. Huskins 0.87

GA Off/60
1. White 2.89
2. Kindl 2.74
8. Quincey 1.37
9. Lashoff 1.05

So every reasonable metric put out by the people at behindthenet.ca shows Kindl not only better than Lashoff, but SUBSTANTIALLY better. Assuming you choose to read into statistics that way, which your post suggests you do.

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:41 AM
  #34
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With Tatar being called up this is a good sign that DRW management sees what we see: the bottom 6 is offensively inept and needs some skill, as does the 2nd PP unit. I don't know if we have a good handle just yet on the line Tatar will skate on, but he is getting ice time on the 2nd PP unit.

So Tatar's ice time and production will definitely be something to pay attention to during Tuesday night's game.

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Old
02-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
With Tatar being called up this is a good sign that DRW management sees what we see: the bottom 6 is offensively inept and needs some skill, as does the 2nd PP unit. I don't know if we have a good handle just yet on the line Tatar will skate on, but he is getting ice time on the 2nd PP unit.

So Tatar's ice time and production will definitely be something to pay attention to during Tuesday night's game.
I'm thinking more and more it has to do with a potential trade. Either a) Tatar himself is being traded (showcase game or games), or b) he is replacing the traded player temporarily because the new player will not be available.

I'm thinking something around Tatar for Steve Weiss-erman is the likely deal given the Florida scouting, not sure what else would be involved.

Mule/Z/Brunner
Flip/Dats/Bert
Nyquist/Weiss/Eaves
Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo
Miller
Emmerton

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Old
02-04-2013, 11:50 AM
  #36
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Tatar being traded would be so sad to see

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:02 PM
  #37
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Out biggest weakness are special teams on the road.

Home PP
21,7%

Home PK
85,0%

Decent numbers so far at this season.

But what a heck is this:

Away PP
0,0%

Away PK
55,6%

This has been a trend for the last 2 years. At season 2010-11 we were very strong team on the road. At it was based on strong special teams. Just go and look those stats.

Road PP:
2010-11 - 23,8%
2011-12 - 13,4%
2012-13 - 0,0%

Road PK:
2010-11: 83,1%
2011-12: 80,6%
2012-13: 55,6%

Is it Paul MacLean and his systems that were lost when he left after 2011 (because it's Ottawa that is shining at those statistics right now), or the reason we took Lidström out from main the PK role? Or both?

Home PP:
2010-11: 20,8%
2011-12: 18,6%
2012-13: 21,7%

Home PK:
2010:11: 81,4%
2011-12: 82,8%
2012-13: 85,0%

Like we see, there's nothing wrong with special teams at home. Just normal variation. But they suck on the road, and suck bad.

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:12 PM
  #38
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tater being trade would suck yeah but id do it for weiss in a heartbeat

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Old
02-04-2013, 01:08 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddington View Post
Huskins was an excellent pickup. Big, durable, blocks shots, isn't prone to the brain cramps that the majority of our defenseman seem to be. He's been a good fit.

Really, I'm just so glad Holland decided not to cave for once and just take the easy way out with Lilja part two. Because he could've. You KNOW he could've.
Agreed.
He's not the most physical guy, but he's involved. He's stable. He doesn't make many goofy plays.
And I don't think it will kill him if we make him the #7 when everyone is healthy.

Of course, when everyone is healthy:
  1. Kronwall
  2. Ericsson
  3. Smith
  4. White
  5. CC
  6. Quincey
  7. Kindl
  8. Huskins

Someone will have to go

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Old
02-04-2013, 01:10 PM
  #40
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Steve Weiss has been a pipe dream with some Wings fans for a long time.

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Old
02-04-2013, 03:00 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort Divine View Post
Tatar being traded would be so sad to see
They might have brought him up and get some points on top6 role and pp time to increase his trade value.. we'll see.

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Old
02-04-2013, 03:49 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shultzyfeelinirie20 View Post
tater being trade would suck yeah but id do it for weiss in a heartbeat
so would i, but i doubt very much florida would trade weiss for only tatar.

imo, weiss is one of the most underrated players in the NHL.

i would not want to trade tatar, but i would also like to see him in NHL. he was probably good enough for NHL last season.

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Old
02-04-2013, 09:11 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Out biggest weakness are special teams on the road.

Home PP
21,7%

Home PK
85,0%

Decent numbers so far at this season.

But what a heck is this:

Away PP
0,0%

Away PK
55,6%

This has been a trend for the last 2 years. At season 2010-11 we were very strong team on the road. At it was based on strong special teams. Just go and look those stats.

Road PP:
2010-11 - 23,8%
2011-12 - 13,4%
2012-13 - 0,0%

Road PK:
2010-11: 83,1%
2011-12: 80,6%
2012-13: 55,6%

Is it Paul MacLean and his systems that were lost when he left after 2011 (because it's Ottawa that is shining at those statistics right now), or the reason we took Lidström out from main the PK role? Or both?

Home PP:
2010-11: 20,8%
2011-12: 18,6%
2012-13: 21,7%

Home PK:
2010:11: 81,4%
2011-12: 82,8%
2012-13: 85,0%

Like we see, there's nothing wrong with special teams at home. Just normal variation. But they suck on the road, and suck bad.
I'm a big Paul MacLean fan so I think there may be something to the idea he was a very good coach who helped keep our special teams at a very high level. We tried Jeff Blashill who wasn't ready for the NHL but is doing a fine job in the AHL. This year we have Tom Renney and I don't think you can blame him for our 2nd PP unit, it is not NHL caliber.

So I think adding Tatar is a good move. I wish we had Smith on the roster last year as it would have likely prevented the awful trade for Kyle Quincey and Smith would be even better at this point in his NHL career. Instead we went with over-ripeness dawgs!. Heck, I'd give Nyquist a chance right now and let's see what Renney can do with NHL talent on both PP units. Right now our PP is like our lines when we had Pavs and Z on the same line: very easy to shut down. Put your top defenders out against Pavs and Z and the rest of the lines are very easy to shut down. Same deal: put your top PK'ers out against our #1 PP unit and you can pretty much just put a shooter tutor in net for the 2nd PP unit cause they ain't getting a single shot on net.

There's simply not enough skill on the NHL team right now. There's quite a bit in GR so it's probably a good idea to let some of the 4-5 older players who have no skill sit so the skilled guys who are stuck in GR can help generate some offense. Cause last I checked outscoring the opposition is always a pretty good way to give yourselves a chance to win a hockey game.

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Old
02-04-2013, 09:27 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Cause last I checked outscoring the opposition is always a pretty good way to give yourselves a chance to win a hockey game.

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:26 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This year we have Tom Renney and I don't think you can blame him for our 2nd PP unit, it is not NHL caliber.
Renney has been awful with the special teams, and there is no reason to make excuses for him.

Our 2 powerplay units are so lopsided that its laughable.

He's got 5 of our best 6 offensive players stacked on the 1st unit and as a result has nobody but Flip to play on the 2nd unit.

On top of that he has a forward on defence with an overly aggressive offensive defenceman, which has led to 2 shorthanded goals against. Even our good unit is only +3 goals on the PP.

If he were to spread some of the offensive talent around I think we'd have a better PP, especially with Brunner playing with Wing instead of the point. He could even roll out the top 2 scoring lines with our best for shooting defenceman and have a more balance PP.

So far I'm not impressed at all with Renney.

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Old
02-05-2013, 04:18 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Steve Weiss has been a pipe dream with some Wings fans for a long time.
Why would the Wings trade for another center... unless to play him on the third line? With Cleary And Sammy?

I guess 5'11 185lbs is too small for the third line, but 5'11 190lbs is juuuust right.

(Yes, I know Weiss is a proven NHL scorer, but it's a little hypocritical).

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Old
02-05-2013, 04:29 AM
  #47
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Nyquist - Weiss - Samuelsson third line?

Or Filppula - Weiss - Samuelsson?

I'd have to say I'm firmly in the camp of having a skilled third line. Too bad it won't happen.

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Old
02-05-2013, 05:06 AM
  #48
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I'd love to have Weiss on this team, but I can't see Holland picking up another pending UFA while Flip, Howard, White and Brunner still need re-signed.

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Old
02-05-2013, 10:16 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Renney has been awful with the special teams, and there is no reason to make excuses for him.

Our 2 powerplay units are so lopsided that its laughable.

He's got 5 of our best 6 offensive players stacked on the 1st unit and as a result has nobody but Flip to play on the 2nd unit.

On top of that he has a forward on defence with an overly aggressive offensive defenceman, which has led to 2 shorthanded goals against. Even our good unit is only +3 goals on the PP.

If he were to spread some of the offensive talent around I think we'd have a better PP, especially with Brunner playing with Wing instead of the point. He could even roll out the top 2 scoring lines with our best for shooting defenceman and have a more balance PP.

So far I'm not impressed at all with Renney.
Well I think we're saying much the same thing. You just think there's enough talent to spread across two PP units with Brendan Smith getting his first extended NHL action before being injured. White has been injured. I'm not much of a Sammy fan but he was supposed to be out there and at least he's probably capable of putting a shot on net, a feat that is unthinkable with most of the guys on the 2nd PP unit.

If you look at the numbers our top PP unit is getting a bunch of IT. Z, Pavs, Mule, Brunner and Kronner are all getting close to 5 mins per game of PP time. Here are their point totals per 60 min game:

Z: 4.17
Kronwall: 4.23
Mule: 2.99
Brunner: 1.53
Pavs: 4.58

Toews, Sharp, Kane and Leddy all average between 4-5 points per 60 mins. Keith is off the charts at 6.53. Hossa is only at 2.57. The difference is Chicago has good skill and scoring depth. They're not relying on Johnny Oduya, Michael Frolik and Niklas Hjalmarsson to contribute to their PP. Even with that being the case they do have some secondary guys who get time on the 2nd PP unit who generate no offense. That list includes Andrew Shaw and Viktor Stalberg.

On our 2nd unit Cleary and Kindl are getting close to 4 mins per 60 mins. Those guys are not skilled NHL guys who can hurt a team when on the PP. They are the equivalent of putting Michael Frolik and Niklas Hjalmarsson on the power play. I mean literally here are the points per 60 mins generated on the PP from our 2nd unit.

Bert: 0
Fil: 0
Cleary: 0
Kindl: 0
Smith: 0
Quincey: 0

So basically you're going 2 against 4 when it comes to guys who have any idea what to do with the puck. Bert and Fil. Smith will become a good power play guy when he gets healthy and gets more NHL games under his belt. Cleary, Kindl and Quincey have a lot of data to show who they are and I'm sorry but they are not skilled NHL players.

I've argued the solution is to add guys like Tatar and Nyquist to the lineup. Hopefully Tatar gets a chance to show us what he's got and if that's the case then he makes the most of the chance.

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02-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Just... the level of...

reality denial, magical thinking, completely unsupportable optimism in your post.

It's really astounding. You must be a perpetually happy person to be so upbeat by one of the worst players on the team for a couple years now.
Looking better each game. Scored a goal tonight and was really strong on the puck. He and Tatar seem to have some chemistry together.

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