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Derek Stepan

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Old
02-03-2013, 02:15 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by The Sweetness View Post
If you had a nickle for every player who finished ahead of O'Reilly in the Selke voting you'd have 65 cents. The next youngest player to finish ahead of him was 3 years older. He is elite defensively, and for his age he is exceptional.
Michael Del Zotto finished 12th in Norris voting. While I think he's criminally underrated on these boards, you'll never see me claiming that he's actually the 12th best defenseman in the NHL.

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Given their similarities in offensive production and that O'Reilly is without a doubt elite defensively and on the forecheck he has more value. Even offensively you could argue that Stepan benefited a lot last year in terms of points when he was put with Gaborik for a while.
And you could also argue that playing in the Rangers' super-conservative defensive system prevented Stepan from scoring even more than he did. You can make arguments in any direction--bottom line is that Stepan has shown he can consistently put up ~20 goals and 45+ points. O'Reilly hasn't shown that yet. Until he does, his offense can't be viewed on the same level.

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And unless you have some inside information you cannot state you know what his contract demands are. Subban held out and signed what is one of the better contracts in the league.
My "inside information" is that if he were asking for a contract that matched his situation/accomplishments to date, he would have been signed a long time ago. If the Avs aren't going to give him what he's asking for, Glen Sather (notorious for hard-balling RFAs) sure as hell won't.

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02-03-2013, 02:28 PM
  #77
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Yeah, I don't want any part of Ryan O'Yashin's contract demands. If he wants 4 or 5M it's gotta be a 1 year deal. 26-26-55 over the last three season is not a model of consistency.

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02-03-2013, 02:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
He did have a great rookie year, but HF Boards has now went over board with it and built him up to be much more then he was/is.

He only had 30 odd points last year, decent for a rookie but not mind blowing. And while yes +25 is also impressive, it was on a dominant Rangers team. He was only +2 in the playoffs with 4 points and now so far this year he's -4 with 0 points in 7 games.
1. McDonagh wasn't a rookie last year.

2. Dominant only because of the defense and goaltending. Still can't score goals worth a damn.

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Over his last 27 games he's had 4 points and is -2. Now I know stats aren't everything and you have to look at how he plays, and he generally did play pretty good during the playoffs, but those stats don't scream Landeskog type value. He certainly looks to have come back to earth.
Yeah, because he's been playing an upwards of well over 25+ minutes a game due to the fact that Tortarella had Stu Bickel playing 2 minutes a game because Bickel is not capable of playing NHL caliber defense.

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I've seen them both play plenty of times. I was a big fan of both of these guys well before they exploded on HF boards(Especially McDonagh) but the simple truth is at least for McDonagh that HF boards has turned him into something he's not. He's great defensively and can shut down a teams top line, but his offensive game isn't that great, and he is still prone to the usual mistakes associated with a young Dman.
I guess the Norris voting is a complete crock of crap then. So much for an 11th place finish in your 2nd season.

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Now OEL on the other hand I think the overhype is somewhat justified. He really did have a truly remarkable year last year, but the biggest part I question about it all, is how good would OEL have done if he were on a team that didn't have such a strong and effective Defensive system like Phoenix. Would he have looked as good on a team like Philly. And in my opinion the answer is no. Even McDonagh I believe benefited a little from being surrounded with very good Defenseman and a world class goalie behind him.
Or it could be that McDonagh is just that good and was on our top pairing and playing against the opposition's top pairings every night from pretty much the start of the season.

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Old
02-03-2013, 02:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Like I said, I've watched him multiple times, he didn't actually break out until playoffs. He was good during the regular season but most didn't take notice until the playoffs, and that's when he became overrated.

I live about as far East as possible, I watch more East Coast games then I do West Coast games, but nice try with the West Coast Bias. We all know its the East Coast that has the Bias.
Just because people didn't "take notice" until the playoffs doesn't mean he didn't break out until the playoffs. He was exceptional in the regular season. Girardi was trash in the playoffs defensively and McDonagh still made that pairing amazing.

And for all this talk of OEL being so much better than McDonagh offensively, they tied each other in points last year despite McDonagh having something like a quarter of OEL's PP time.

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02-03-2013, 04:19 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Yeah, I don't want any part of Ryan O'Yashin's contract demands. If he wants 4 or 5M it's gotta be a 1 year deal. 26-26-55 over the last three season is not a model of consistency.
Enh. It is consistency, just not "#2 scoring center" consistency.

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02-03-2013, 04:47 PM
  #81
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People seem to point to McD's "30 or so points" as a downside, what they don't realize is that a large majority of those points were at even strength because he didn't play the powerplay at all last year. If not for McD stepping up ALL of last season (not just in the playoffs), our defense would have been in a very tough spot because Staal, who was previously considered to be our #1, was out with a concussion and his play suffered all year until the playoffs.

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02-03-2013, 05:17 PM
  #82
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Mcdonagh is ridiculously good, there's no point in asking for the guy in a trade.

But anyways, from an Avs perspective, I would absolutely want something else coming back in addition to Stepan if it were a deal for O'reilly. Not something huge but still a reasonably significant piece. Any way you slice it I would be unhappy about a deal of Stepan+ for O'reilly since it would just make more sense to wake up and sign him.

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02-03-2013, 06:29 PM
  #83
Michael Gary Scott
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Grabovski (1.5mill in salary retained) + 2nd round pick for Stepan.

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02-03-2013, 06:42 PM
  #84
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Jets will give you Ponikarovsky + Antropov + Wellwood + Chicagos 2nd at the deadline for Stepan + Hagelin

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02-03-2013, 07:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jets View Post
Jets will give you Ponikarovsky + Antropov + Wellwood + Chicagos 2nd at the deadline for Stepan + Hagelin
And the Rangers will counter with Boyle + Pyatt + Asham + NYR 2nd Rounder for Burmistrov and Little.

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02-03-2013, 08:56 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I wanted Stepan over Anisimov in the Nash deal. Obviously that was a "no way."

How about Brassard + New York's 1st round pick back? Brassard fills Stepan's spot temporarily or permanently if he does well. Also NY gets to have its own pick again which is nice.
We should have done
Stepan + Dubinsky + Redden (salary dump) to CBJ
for
Nash + Postma + CBJ 4th

Rangers would have AA as 2c, righty help on lower D, our first round pick, and still have 2 buyouts.

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02-03-2013, 09:36 PM
  #87
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We are not moving McDonagh unless an elite is involved.

Staying on focus as to Stepan, he's already a solid 2c with upside to second echelon 1c. We are not giving him away. That said, no one has been more vocal than me about moving Stepan for an upgrade.

While all options should be considered with an open mind, basically you either move Stepan + for a better C, or move for an upgrade on D, or a certain to finish sniper, though that is problematic if the F is a W instead of a C,

I am in a minority who believes that until reinforcements come next year speedy JT Miller could handle a minimum duty at pivot as playmaker to speedy Ws Hagelin, Callahan, Kreider. There is risk in this strategy.

My point is Rangers are a good team, but need to improve, If there is enough profit in an upgrade, it is worth the risk.

But offers have to be worthwhile or no dice.

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02-03-2013, 09:43 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets View Post
Jets will give you Ponikarovsky + Antropov + Wellwood + Chicagos 2nd at the deadline for Stepan + Hagelin
Oh don't be so good to us.

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02-03-2013, 10:01 PM
  #89
smoneil
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Mcdonagh is ridiculously good, there's no point in asking for the guy in a trade.

But anyways, from an Avs perspective, I would absolutely want something else coming back in addition to Stepan if it were a deal for O'reilly. Not something huge but still a reasonably significant piece. Any way you slice it I would be unhappy about a deal of Stepan+ for O'reilly since it would just make more sense to wake up and sign him.

That's your right, but from a Rangers perspective, I wouldn't even do Stepan straight up for O'Reilly. Step has shown himself to be more consistent on the ice, and even if you DO want to view it as a lateral move, the Rangers will soon be a team that will be pinching pennies. We can't move a cost-controlled guy for a similar player holding out for a contract he hasn't yet earned.

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02-03-2013, 10:29 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Michael Del Zotto finished 12th in Norris voting. While I think he's criminally underrated on these boards, you'll never see me claiming that he's actually the 12th best defenseman in the NHL.
If O'Reilly's finishes 14th in selke voting and the other is nowhere to be found on a list of 50 players then you need to acknowledge there is a significant difference in their defensive play. I mean, O'Reilly led the entire league in takeaways. There is really no debate on this issue. I guess we have to agree to disagree here.
Quote:
And you could also argue that playing in the Rangers' super-conservative defensive system prevented Stepan from scoring even more than he did. You can make arguments in any direction--bottom line is that Stepan has shown he can consistently put up ~20 goals and 45+ points. O'Reilly hasn't shown that yet. Until he does, his offense can't be viewed on the same level.
That would be a poor argument considering the Rangers had the 13th ranked offense and the Avs had the leagues 26th ranked offense. Not to mention O'Reilly faced tougher matchups than Stepan because Boyle was used in a shutdown role and Stepan got to play so much with Gaborik.

I'm not sure why you place so much stock on production from two years ago for such young players when it's clear players develop by leaps and bounds at such a young age and it's obvious O'Reilly is trending sharply upwards. If you want to rate Stepans offense as better than O'Reilly we can agree to disagree and check back in a few years.

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My "inside information" is that if he were asking for a contract that matched his situation/accomplishments to date, he would have been signed a long time ago. If the Avs aren't going to give him what he's asking for, Glen Sather (notorious for hard-balling RFAs) sure as hell won't
I.e you know nothing. Subban held out and got a great contract. We don't know if the Avs are playing hardball or if O'Reilly is making unnecessary demands. We can come back here when he signs and see what kind of money he got.


Last edited by The Sweetness: 02-04-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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Old
02-03-2013, 11:35 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I might do McDonagh for Landeskog straight up. Landeskog is Callahan on steroids.
Rangers need McDonagh more.

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02-03-2013, 11:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
And the Rangers will counter with Boyle + Pyatt + Asham + NYR 2nd Rounder for Burmistrov and Little.
Pyatt is too good, replace with Halpern.

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02-03-2013, 11:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
One good playoff run and suddenly he's worth more then the guy who was just named youngest captain in NHL history, won the Calder, is only 19 years old, and a former 2nd overall pick?

I mean McDonagh was great sure, but before last years playoffs half of HF boards didn't even know his name, now he's apparently considered a god.

He and OEL have become so overrated because of one good showcasing of talent in the playoffs.

Its unfortunate because McDonagh particularly is a guy I want to like and want to see succeed, but this is just ridiculous.
Ranger fans, and the entire Eastern conference knew who he was... How did HF boards not?

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02-03-2013, 11:42 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
We should have done
Stepan + Dubinsky + Redden (salary dump) to CBJ
for
Nash + Postma + CBJ 4th

Rangers would have AA as 2c, righty help on lower D, our first round pick, and still have 2 buyouts.
Three problems with this idea:
  • There would not be enough assets coming back to the CBJ. The bare minimum was always some variant on two quality roster forwards and two futures - with exceptions permitted if, say, one of those "futures" was already a roster forward (see: Couture).
  • Note that none of those options ever included a salary dump. There were no "include a salary dump" options. Accepting a salary dump as part of a Nash deal was unshakably in the category of "things that are never going to happen".
  • Postma is the property of the Winnipeg Jets organization, and has never in his or our lifetime been associated with the Columbus Blue Jackets. It would therefore be difficult for us to send him to somebody in a trade.
It would be equally sensible and productive to suggest that we should have held out for Stepan, Anisimov, Dubinsky, Miller, Kreider, and a 1st... for Nash by himself. Much like your proposal here, such a package would not and could not happen.

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02-04-2013, 12:42 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Michael Gary Scott View Post
Grabovski (1.5mill in salary retained) + 2nd round pick for Stepan.
We give up the best player and a 2nd for a sluggish playmaker who can't score a goal?

Not sure if you took advantage of the Centre Ice this year, but Stepan is madly overrated and Is a decent 3rd line C right now.

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02-04-2013, 01:25 AM
  #96
CM Lundqvist
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Oh don't be so good to us.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, love the sarcasm. I like this SBOB not being a mod thing. I've gotten to see a side of you that I've never seen before.

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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
We give up the best player and a 2nd for a sluggish playmaker who can't score a goal?

Not sure if you took advantage of the Centre Ice this year, but Stepan is madly overrated and Is a decent 3rd line C right now.
LMFAO, you definitely did not take advantage of center ice, at all.

Madly overrated? Decent 3rd line center right now?

I'm sorry, he hasn't started off well, but this is a gigantic crock of **** and is subjective conjecture at best.

It's one thing to like Grabovski and so and say that he's playing better than Stepan right now, but that post is a joke.

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Old
02-04-2013, 01:26 AM
  #97
Dark Knight
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Originally Posted by Michael Gary Scott View Post
Grabovski (1.5mill in salary retained) + 2nd round pick for Stepan.
Don't glorify Stepan more than he deserves to be. We have our version of Stepan in Tyler Bozak. Both very similar players, IMO.

Grabovski has more value to us than Stepan. It's a redundant deal with the Leafs adding a high pick.

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Old
02-04-2013, 01:36 AM
  #98
CM Lundqvist
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Don't glorify Stepan more than he deserves to be. We have our version of Stepan in Tyler Bozak. Both very similar players, IMO.
The last part of your post was fine, this however is just FLAT OUT wrong.

Their games aren't even close to being the same.

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